Changes in chemistry
Posted , 3 users are following.
Hi. I'm on 75mg for GAD and panic disorder. I've been on this before with no real issues. I came off it but was back on them 6 months later after a bad relapse.
This time is a totally different experience. Still the same dose. I keep coming in and out of relapse ever since I went back on them. I'll have 2 or 3 really good weeks then I'll feel totally rubbish for a week. At present this is a particularly bad one. It's like I can feel the chemical changes in my brain actually happening. I can't really describe the sensations as they are weird but it's a bit like brain zaps that people often describe. My eyes really don't feel connected to my head. It's not pleasant!
Has anyone else experienced similar on this vile tablet?
0 likes, 8 replies
betsy0603 chris180477
Posted
When we go off and go back on these meds, it sensitizes the nervous system. What that means is that it can respond paradoxically to the med in the future, or the med just doesn't work anymore. I am thinking that how you are responding now is some version of tolerance withdrawal, meaning that withdrawal symptoms are occuring while you are on that level of med. Withdrawal symptoms look like relapse.
I didn't have exactly what you were describing, but over the 12 years on Effexor I gradually worked my way down to 37.5 mg from 225 mg, and then back up to 75, and know that I wasn't "happy" during the whole time. I definitely had cognitive and emotional issues during that time, but just didn't put two and two together with dosage changes. I tend to be rather dense that way when it comes to my body :-(
Anyway, your two choices are 1) increase the dosage hoping to overcome tolerance, which might work but might go paradoxical (and I woud only increase by 37.5 mg at most) or 2) very gradually taper back down. People often get relief from symptoms when they taper down because the system is saying it doesn't like the drug anymore, and removing it slowly without triggering bigger withdrawal brings symptos relief. Sounds strange, I know, but I've read of it happening with folks on the Surviving Antidepressant website.
See, it is possible that during the 6 months you were off, your nervous system did some adapting back to baseline, but if you went right back to 75, you exceeded that level of healing. A lesser dose might have brought you relief and left you feeling ok.
If you were to updose, the problem with increasing by too much is that it will cause another big imbalance until your system adapts, and that could cause you big upset. And then you are at that much higher a dose to work your way down from. It is much safer to take a percentage, such as 10% of the 75 mg, so adding 7.5 mg and see how that sits with you. Much less wild swinging for your nervous system if it doesn't go well. Of course, since your system has been so sensitized, it is likely that you will develop tolerance at the new level as well.
If you are on the extended release capsules with beads inside, titrating up is much easier to do. Count the beads in three different capsules. Take the average, and then calculate 10% and add that many beads to your 75.
If you want to reduce to see if relief is found that way, do the same in reverse - remove 10% of the beads. It takes four days for a new level of drug to be achieved.
If you have the immediate release tablets, you can make a liquid and titrate up. Or ask for the liquid from your doctor. A bit more tricky because you can't keep the liquid around from a whole tablet for very long without risk of it going bad and not working, and you don't want to waste tablets.
You could switch to another med, but I would recommend only switching to another SNRI so that hopefully the WD from ven won't be as bad with the new SNRI overlapping. Other SSRIs won't negate withdrawal from coming off Ven too quickly.
Obviously, it all needs to be discussed with your doctor and hopefully done with his support. Also, you need to decide on a plan and stick with it, because your nervous system is going to get less and less forgiving of being yanked around :-(
For your review, here's the link for the 10% taper method, with an explanation of why it is so important to go so slow; the topic is in this thread:
https://patient.info/forums/discuss/depression-resources-298570
chris180477 betsy0603
Posted
Today is the worst day by whilst being on them. I've not had this level of illness since June/July.
Could this be because these tablets aren't working for me anymore or are they still trying to work? This is more than just anxiety. It's more of a chemical disagreement.
betsy0603 chris180477
Posted
betsy0603 chris180477
Posted
betsy0603
Posted
chris180477 betsy0603
Posted
I started the Venlafaxine in September. The first couple of weeks were as you might expect with the side effects. The depressed thoughts lifted and I felt an improvement. I remember 6-8 weeks in I had a re lapse for a few days where anxiety took over.
This seemed to be the the pattern until now. Feeling good then I'd plummet. For no real reason.
Surely if these drugs were going to disagree with me, they would have done so from the start??
Since Sunday these past few days have been the worst I've had whilst being on them. I've terrible nerves and I'm absolutely petrified of what these drugs are doing to my brain. I'm scared of the unpredictability of their reaction. I can't guess how I'm going to feel the next day.
The options are in my opinion are, to increase the dose or come off them. If I increase the dose then I'm scared that it's going to be worse than it is already plus they might not be the correct drugs for my condition. Then I ask myself, what actually is my condition. I've read up quite a few things of which I probably shouldn't but I have. One is a personality disorder and the other is bipolar 2. I have traits of both but I've been told that everyone has traits to a certain extent of everything. Just the sufferers are worse. How worse is something I don't know the answer to.
If I come off them, I'm scared that the depression will return which as you'll know, is not pleasant!! But to be honest, that is on a level ground with how I've felt the past few days so I don't know what's worse lol. Anxiety attacks of the norm usually last a few minutes to a couple of hours but this is nearly all day!
Also what you said about my nervous system getting damaged. Scary but you made sense. None of the doctors will tell you any of this. For obvious reasons though to be fair.
I'm at a complete crossroads at the minute and I have no idea what to do next. I have no real worries in life, have my own home, a girlfriend which is my rock with this and we're getting our own home together so I've things to be upbeat about. But I'm not as this is ruling my life and is showing no signs of improvement. It's the not knowing what's happening to me that is the problem. There's no magic fix. Just torture. If I had reassurance and proof that things would be ok and that the drugs will work then I could probably tolerate it but putting myself through this for nothing isn't fair.
I saw a psychiatrist just before Xmas. I had to pay £300 as the NHS wouldn't see me.
He said that I had 3 options. To go on an SSRI, up my Venlafaxine or try an anti epileptic drug as he'd seen success with those.
I want someone to take their time with me and understand what I'm going through. But these Venlafaxine...something isn't right. I shouldn't be feeling like this. Surely??
betsy0603 chris180477
Posted
I would stay away from the antiseizure med!!! They get us into so much more trouble using drugs off label!
Just so you know, there are people who are put on these drugs for reasons other than anxiety and depression, such as pain, but suffer anxiety and depression coming off of them, which is further proof that the destabilization these drugs create when coming off is the problem.
You are not permanently damaged. Your nervous system remoled to take the aciton of the drug into account, and it can change back. More questions: how long were you on Ven before you came off, and how quickly did you come off, by what amounts?
I would not be so quick to look for a diagnosis for yourself. Everyone has ups and downs in life, that IS life. No one is guaranteed a stress-free, happy life at all times! It is our dysfunctional way of processing stress that causes the problem, but better coping skills can and should be learned, whether taking drugs or not.
As you said, you have everything to be content about, but you are in these ups and downs; they are entirely caused by the drug. You didn't have these kinds of cycles before Effexor or coming off and going back on, right? A lot of docs would now diagnose you as bi-polar, which would be an inaccurate diagnosis, because it is caused by the drugs! To then treat you as bi-polar will only cause more problems, because you are trying to treat withdrawal sypmtoms with more drugs! I've seen this over and over on the SA forum, where people got polydrugged because of chasing drug side effects and tolerance withdrawal effects.
So, the good news is that a lot of people actually get relief from these symptoms by doing a very slow, careful taper off. I suspect you went off way too quickly before. That crash you had was not fun, and the recommended taper is a harm-reduction plan with the idea being that you ease your nervous system off so slowly that it has a chance to respond to the reduced drug level by paring back the excess receptors litltle by little without you hardly noticing. The idea is to keep you comfortable and functional.
You can learn more about the 10% taper in this thread:
https://patient.info/forums/discuss/depression-resources-298570
That also takes you to Surviving Antidpressents, and there are many people in the process of coming off Ven. Some have gotten into a lot of trouble and are struggling while others are moving right along. The Success Stories sub-forum has stories from the people who have made it. Not as much there because as usual, when people do ok they disappear, but there are some.
There's also a lot of support there for dealing with emotions in non-drug ways. One way or the other, I think you'll need to do some work on non-drug ways for coping with anxiety, because the pills only ever cover it up and wear out eventually. I've finally figured that out!
Ok, bedtime here, but I'll be back tomorrow....
BTW, I'm a long timer, 12 years on the evil stuff, and so I am taking it very slow to get off after my failed attempt. I'm down to 27.5 mg and doing very well.
chris180477 betsy0603
Posted
I had one episode like this back in July where I was abroad. I had a bad attack that lasted a couple of days. I think that was a blend of panic and anxiety. Strange place, no comfort zones etc etc.
That was when I went on peroxetine. Yuk!
I'll speak to the doc about coming off and see if that makes any difference. I'd like to know though the implications of doing this. Whether I could be much worse because of the confusion my brain chemistry is being put through. You are 100% right though, it's not me, it's the drugs that is making me feel this way.
Have a good sleep and I'll hopefully speak to you again tomorrow. Once again, I really do appreciate your information and guidance.