DLA enquiry

Oh thanks for you views

Oh thanks Gill that's what I was frightened of , my award is for 5 year for my son so I think I'll not take the chance as I don't want to lose what I've getting , xx

Completely fair enough. x

There is a negative side to accepting a lower rate than what you believe you should have.

If you were asked by a judge/decison maker, assuming your re-assessment goes against you, how would you explain that you expect a higher award second time round for similar difficulties bearing in mind that you agreed that the current decision is the right one (because you didn't challenge it)?

well for me at the time i was still fairly mobile but struggling and i knew within the space of a few months i would be using a mobility scoter full time, but because at the time i wasn't yet using one i was only granted standard rate.. so there wasn't much point in me arguing it.. where as now i'm using one full time come my next review i feel i should get higher rate mobility.. 

but as we all know what we think and what they think are 2 different things. so we'll just have to see.

There is something in what you say there Les.  

I wonder what percentage of applicant decide to go to tribunal and how much each tribunal costs?  I imagine those who were on higher rates for previous dla would be more likely to disappointed with a lower pip award.  I am currently still waiting to hear of my reward and i must admit, i just hope and pray i get what i am entitled to because the thought of going to tribunal scares me.  The application has been stressful enough! 

I agree with you TCake,   I will be happy if I get what I was getting on DLA, but if it's lower then I think I may take it further, but as you say, the journey so far has been stressful enough, without a Tribunal to look forward to. 

Yes - at least if we are awarded lower pip then we can bring this up at a tribunal.  My health has deteriorated since I applied for dla so I know I am entitled to at least similar, if not higher pip!  

Even if you use a mobility scooter you are not guaranteed Enhanced PIP mobility rate. It still depends on whether you can walk 20m safely and repeatidly. Also some Tribunals consider mobility scooters as 'aids' which can propel the claimant more than 20m provided they can get off and on the scooter safely.

To be fair you could be completey imobile and they would still turn you down, there are never any guarantee with the DWP. 

 

It is conceivable that those on the highest rates of DLA could well find that they aren't awarded anything for PIP even if you take it to the appeal Tribunal.

Why? Because DLA and PIP assess need in a totally different way. There is absolutely no comparison between either one.

Take mobility as a single point - to get DLA the distance was approx 50 metres to get High Mobility - for PIP it is 20 metres to get the equivalent Enhanced rate.

Then with DLA - it was the general overall picture that counted, with PIP you have to fit narrow descriptors.

 

My health and care/mobility needs are considerable. Some, one in particular is life threatening. Yet for me, the descriptors of PIP and the relevant points do not fit my needs and limited capabilities.

To be honest there have already been major arguments amongst some sectors that accepted conditions and disabilities will not get a PIP award. Some severe mental illnesses, Parkinsons, strokes etc simply do not fit what the government deem are accepted needs.

Even if you use a mobility scooter you are not guaranteed Enhanced PIP mobility rate.

If you were ever to go to Benidorm you would think that a good majority of visitors are so disabled that they need to hire a scooter.

In fact this is not true at all, the scooters are a cheap way of getting from A to B.

In this country I have seen many 'disabled' riding a scooter, parking it up outside a pub/shop and walk in with no difficulties. 

So buying a scooter does not mean that there is a need - more a question of a choice. - so I am with you on your comments.

Funnily enough I see this quite often too.  I live opposite a mobility scooter shop and see lots of people visiting for a test drive.  Some walk into the shop like there is nothing wrong them and I see them 'hopping' on to a skooter as if it were a bike, and then tootling off up and down the road for a test drive!!!  I have often wondered why they are looking to buy one when they can clearly jump on and off without an 'oooh' or an 'aaaah' and can walk with ease?  I also know of a friend up the street (who doesn't claim PIP) who uses a scooter to go shopping as she says she would struggle to carry her shopping home on foot and wouldn't be without her scooter with it's front and back basket!

The scooter craze is simply there because there is no need for road tax, insurance MOT or even a driving licence.

People incorrectly assume that those on one of these death traps are disabled - which only reinforces the opinion that some, but not all, users are playing the disability game for their own selfish reasons.

My wife and I need (both having severe mobility issues, and not by choice), a car to get around. We pay Road Tax, Insurance Servicing costs and MOT. We have to abide by all of the rules failing which we could be fined or at worst lose our licences.

Neither of us gets any help whatsoever towards these costs - why?Because we are over 65!! Should we pretend to be disabled and get scooters? The DWP haven't agreed that we have these mobility needs!

  

well just to let you know that i myself can get up and out of my scooter without an oooo arrrrr as you put it, i park my scooter and walk the short distance to the post office queue for example.. but my disability doesn't restrict my movement, i can use my legs albeit with weekness and i can raise my arms above my head etc, my problem isnt restriction of movement, it's the amount of movement i can do before my symptoms are exacerbated to the point i either end up in bed or black out on the floor. so if you see someone getting out of a mobility scooter and walking without showing signs of a disability doesn't mean there isn't one. i of course don't deny that there are fakers and people who use scooters for convinience rather than necessity but not every one on a scooter with an invisible illness is a faker. so yes using a scooter on it's own doesn't qualify someone for higest rate mobility of pip but for me personaly (which by the way i was talking about not in general) with all my other ailments put together i feel i should be getting the higest rate come my next review.

 

Sorry I wasn't referring to you - I was just merely stating that many people must use them just to get around faster - like my friend along the road who does not receive PIP or have any disabilities - she just doesn't drive so uses her skooter to mererly carry her shopping home.  

If you truly believe you should be on the enhanced mobility then I would advise you to persue it and take the dwp to tribunal.  I think the dwp deliberately give people less in the hope that they will not go to tribunal after the stress of going through the long drawn out application in the first place!  If I don't get the award I think I am entitled to I will be going to tribunal!  So if you do decide to go for it - good luck!

i know tcake i was replying to les and the comments made. it's comments like that, that make people like me feel the need to have to justfy ourselves and have to explain ourselves to people who look at us for 2 minuets and make an assessment of us then publicly state that because we can get out of a scooter with ease we don't deserve anything. it's that implication and judgement that makes people like me want to hide away at home.it's disgusting. and i know les stated not everyone but it still not nice to read..

 

I think that is why so many people are assessed wrongly - how can a person who assesses you for 30 minutes possibly decide on how good/bad/fit/unfit you are?? They might be assessing you on a good day or after you have just taken all your painkiller meds, however, if they were assessing you on a bad day or when you wake up first thing in the morning and have not taken your painkillers they might have a comletely different view of your problems!.  It is rediculous too how a person sitting behind a desk at the dwp can make the final decision when they have never met or spoken to you!  It is just all wrong and no wonder many genuine people fall through the net and many 'expert-fraudsters' jump into the net!

That's exactly right. i couldn't have said it better myself.

the whole system needs changing even some (not all) assessors see you on your worst day then lie in their reports so how on earth is anyone supposed to get anywhere.

But i suppose genuine people who can supply medical evidence can over turn wrong decisions.

my assessor lied about me but i proved her a lyer with letters & photographic proof and i didn't have to appeal, the dwp just over turned decision on mandatory reconsideration. but i still think the stress they cause when lying is uncalled for.

I fully agree with your comments Gill but I thought I should point out that ownership of a mobility scooter does-not guarantee Enhanced PIP Mobility.

We the disabled (whether in receipt of benefits or not) should be last to be snobby and accuse others of being 'fakers'. I tend to shy away from such statements because I can only judge people from my frame of reference and would have limited knowledge of how your condition effects you so how can I possibly accuse you of being a ‘fake?’

I see contributors to this forum making fake comments time and again usually from those who have been turned down for PIP who then turn to fabricating an injustice by referring to these mythical scroungers who only really exist on the periphery of the benefits system or more widely in the heads of Tory politicians.PIP is not perfect and at a push it can be classed as unfair but that would be true of whatever system was used. Rather than make up stories about other people who posters have no real idea about, their time would be better spent either accepting the decision or understanding the system and squeezing the maximum points possible from it.

But i suppose genuine people who can supply medical evidence can over turn wrong decisions.

As far as I know I doubt many can supply 'medical' evidence that supports any descriptor.

Diagnosis and treatment is easy to get, but evidence to support the needs claimed or mobility issues confirmed?

The only place that I can see this coming from is Social Services when asked to carry out an assessment.

At the end of the day most awards are given on the balance of probabilities which in most cases is a far cry from cold hard evidence.

A lot depends on how the PIP2 form is completed, what your repeat prescription shows and above all can what you the claimant claim be believed over the assessor.

With respect moaning about the system isn't going to change anything. PIP is different to ESA in that it depends on how your condition affects you, not that you have a diagnosis and suffer with a condition/disability/illness

The HCP HAVE to take into consideration medication which can alleviate your disability and allow you live independently and improve mobility. This is why the 50% rule exists and why someone who is ‘OK’ for more than 50% of the time is deemed not to have reached the threshold for benefit to be paid.

HCP have to make a call based on the balance of probabilities and do-not ‘lie’ for the hell of it.

Put yourself in their shoes someone claims to need help with bathing and can’t get into or out of the bath without help.

However, they can’t produce any evidence to support this such as wet room (or other aids), an OT report, carer statement or even a care diary. On the balance of probabilities the HCP would be obliged to state the claimant doesn’t need assistance to bathe and it doesn’t matter how much the claimant cries ‘lier’

Gill was the HCP a liar or was it a case of you not supplying the evidence in the first place? You state you got the decision overturned on MR by supplying additional evidence.

If you had supplied that in the first place the HCP might have given you a different report. I cannot understand you labeling the assessor as a liar when they weren't full aware of all the evidence in your procession.

Two points come to mind. Yes you are absolutely right. The DWP MUST take into account the prescribed medication. That is one of the main if not the biggest reason that the points that I would have got were so low. I have pain medication prescribed by the Pain Clinic. It is such heavy stuff that it almost gets rid of the pain I suffer. How then could I claim for the effects of pain as one of my problems. Likewise I take copious amounts of drugs for mental health problems - yes I feel wierd on them but they certainly help get rid of most of my care needs.

To attempt to claim that they should not take medication into account is tantamount to saying - look at me as I was not as I am.

The second point, I know what you will say, but I think it needs reiterating - the claimant is not required to send in ANY evidence in support of a PIP claim. It is up to the HCP to do their job properly and get down to the truth by questioning and observation PLUS obtaining evidence that would support the claim or would contradict it. That is unless the DWP want to re-write the PIP Regulations?

If the HCP spent a few weeks training at New Scotland Yard in London they would soon learn what are the tried and tested techniques that would get to the truth!

Turn it the other way round, the HCP's wouldn't last a week as a detective working for the police. The CPS would probably lose every case!

I understand the regulations Les but the decision's are based on the balance of probabilities and if the claimant wishes to give up one of their best weapons (evidence) then the BOP will tip against them.

Yes the HCP job is to get a correct overall perspective of the claimants needs so it makes absolute sense to give them as much information as possible.

I’m a bit shocked at your use of Scotland Yard as analogy simply because claimants are not criminals they sick and disabled people seeking extra help. It would be absolutely unacceptable to subject such people to Police tactics which exist to interview the criminals and not the neediest of society.

Thanks, I am not in the least suggesting that the disabled are criminals.

Throughout the civil service anybody that has the power to investigate anything (to get at the truth) is sent on a 4 week course on how to be effective in questioning. Gone have the days of sweat rooms and deprivation. Instead psychology is the tool of trade nowadays. You are taught that to be effective you have to listen and be seen to listen.You have to be able to read body language and mannerisms. Above all you are there to get the truth be it to the advantage of the claimant/customer or not. Trust is vital, as well as is compassion and understanding.

The days of the 'Sweeney' are long gone!!

 

Hi Gill

I see that you were successful in obtaining PIP at the standard rate.  I'm trying to complete the form for my husbant but I'm finding it difficult.  He was diagnosed with fibro in 1999.  He also has cervcal spondylosis, nerve damage down right arm, degenerative disc disease in the lumbar area, arthritis in both knees and a hiatus hernia.  My husban can't fill in the form because it overwhelms him and his writingis not good due to nerve damage in his right arm and I was wondering if you could give me any advice example sentences etc in how to fill the form in.  Its just having to put sentences together and wondering exactly what they are looking for.  Your help would be greatly appreciated.

you can get help from the CAB - they will help you fill in the form

I don't have any faith in CAB, we consulted welfare rights when applying for ESA and she really didn't contribute that much to it, we lost the claim and had to take it to the tribunal and won.

Any tips on how, what words/sentences to use?

Hi Lynn

 

It is important to stress exactly how your husband’s condition affects him.

 

By what you have said it sounds as though your husband has SEVERE symptoms of cervical spondylosis and it is important to make the assessor aware of this. Also stress that your husband is a multiple condition sufferer and stress again that those conditions are SEVERE if that is the case.

 

Next you need to explain your personal care, if your husband can’t cook a meal then explain why, for example due to his left arm being immobile he can’t chop fresh vegetables, or hold pots and pans.

 

Work your way through the descriptors in a similar fashion

DAILY LIVING

Washing Bathing

Dressing

Toilet Needs

Budgeting

Monitoring a Health Condition

Taking nutrition

Communicating verbally

Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words

Engaging with other people face to face

 MOBILITY

Planning and following journey’s

Moving around

 

Not all the descriptors will apply (and it tends to look suspicious if anyone claims that they do) but those that do apply to your husband need have consistent and credible explanations to why your husband needs assistance due to his severe conditions.

I havent had any correspondence from them yet regarding my claim, but I have heard people talk about a site called benefits and work. It might be an idea to have a look on there. 

I signed up with them for my husband's claim for ESA but didn't really feel that they were that helpful - probably because of the jargon I think and I didn't understand what it was all about that that time

Anthony gives some good advice in his post - just go through each question and be honest with your OH's capabilities - stating clearly and honestly what he can and cannot manage.  PIP is all about how your medical problems, whether physical or mental, effect your ability to manage daily living activities such as dressing, bathing, cooking, eating, moving about etc.  He is likely to have a medical assessment so make sure what you state on your form backs this up and send in as much recent medical evidance as you can too - good luck!

errr the truth is a good start.

I agree - you have to be completely truthful.  When I went for my medical assessment I witnessed an applicant who was so false. He hobbled into the waiting room with a walking frame and when his 'carer' asked why he wore a polo neck top on such ahot and humid day, he replied in a very loud voice (for all to hear inc the secretary 'well i didn't have anyone to help me put a t-shirt on????' (my immediate thoughts were then how the hell did you find it easier to put a tight polo on than a t-shirt???'  Then he kept making these loud grunts and groans everytime he moved!!  Seriously I thought he was putting it on so I guessed the secretary would have thought the same!!!  Sometimes acting false can be so transparent - I hope that person was declined an award because even I (a non-professional) could see through him without even having to focus!  He was a definite fraudster in my eyes!

The government have said that no more than 5% of all DLA claims are fraudalent. Well I don't believe it. With knowing the people that I do and through my work with the government in the past, I would say that 20% is a more realistic figure for those that make false and/or exaggerated claims.

How many times have you read the advice on the web - 'you should only describe your worst days' when filling out a sickness or disability related benefit claim form.

 

Yes, I agree the rate must be higher that 5%.  This bloke who I saw looked as though he was playing into the cameras - it was so very obvious.  His carer at one point very loudly asked him, 'you look in pain today - did you take you painkillers?' and he replied in a loud voice 'no, because the Boots pharmacy was meant to deliver my prescription yesterday and they didn't turn up and I couldn't go and collect it myself so I haven't had any!'  

After my assessment was ll over and we had got in the taxi for our journey home, the first thing my friend said to me was 'that bloke in the waiting room with us had to be a fake!'  So I wasn't the only one who noticed and going from the looks from the secretary - she could see through him like a piece of glass too!

errr I know, I'm not stupid, that was so helpful, thank you so much