esa scored no points???

Hi Anthony the reports what he sent in was scans and ct scans a memory test which he failed miserably and all hospital reports, all the medical bloke asked was I see you've had two ct scans which show it's not got better or worse, we was told the brain cells will not repair them self and to only get back intouch with the brain specialist if I notice his memory getting worse, with having the heartattack and stroke to close together the doctor said no one will touch him for at least a year so wev got no more to show for his back problems, he's also on sleeping tablets as he cant sleep which the doctor explained he can't stay on for long as his brain will get used to them, he's just got to get used to not sleeping as the damage to the brain is not letting him know it's bedtime, I really dnt know what more evidence we can show them?

Basically with his brain damage he doesn't see anyone about because there is nothing they can do, it's just a waiting game to see if it gets any worse and turns into dementia, fingers crossed he stays at this levele

If I were you I would ask for a copy of the assessment and get in touch with your MP asap this is clearly very wrong

I too had problems getting beyond 0 points for ESA in 2010 and 2013. I also had a 'zero' result for DLA in 2011 - all were face to face assessments.

Of my many many medical problems I too have frontal lobe damage following a brutal attack with a baseball bat across the back of the head.

I also spent two days in total having memory tests etc which were carried out by the local CMHOP. In addition I was diagnosed with early onset vascular dementia.

I would also add that from 1995 I have seen every Tom, Dick and Harry of the Mental Health Team and have been Sectioned in the past!

In addition I recently applied for Attendance Allowance and was turned down flat for that as well.

So with what your partner has problems with it doesn't surprise me to hear that he has been found fit for work.

Les words fail me. will someone explain how bad one has to be please! Yet hubby was talking to a very intelligent young man a few weeks back when he went fishing, saying how he is going to use his PIP money to save for a car, he didn't seem to be in any pain, no walking aids needed, He was recently was awarded it...HOW?

The crux of the matter on how people qualify for benefits is down in my opinion to having a damn good Welfare Rights Officer working on your behalf. You only have to read the forum on Rightsnet (a forum specifically for WRO) to understand how well geared up they are into the law relating to benefits and how to best go about getting them even with conditions that most of us would think trivial by comparison.

Unfortunately in most areas in England, especially those such that are said to be 'wealthy regions of the South, you will find great difficulty in accessing this help.

It doesn't matter what your conditions are for ESA and PIP, it's how they limit you, how they affect your life that matters. In addition you have to 'fit' those difficulties to the descriptors that the government say are there to test sickness and/or disabilities.

In my case even with everything that is wrong with me I find it extremely hard in finding a descriptor that fits exactly to my needs.

I've harped on about walking distance for PIP - it seems that people are able to prove to the DWP that they have measured distances that makes them eligible. I cant walk to the end on my drive and on estimation I thought it was about 17 metres - when I measured the actual distance it was 21/2 metres. No doubt people would measure 19 metres and say that the was the maximum. I could only give a guess at my assessments which was interpreted by the assessor as to mean 200 metres!

It's how you fill out the claim form, what you put on the claim form making sure it matches to the descriptors and above all having medical evidence that need not prove them but simply disproves the alternatives.

In the end I am utterly useless at filling in these claim forms - there is no decent or qualified help where I live so like most I had to go it alone. 

Les your comment about 'knowing how to fill the claim form in' is probably the most important piece of advice anyone applying for benefits could get.

Time and again on this forum we see posters making the classic mistake of believing ESA/PIP is awarded because you simply suffer with a condition.

We often see the quote 'how bad has it got to be?' (See Susan). To put it simply your condition has to affect you enough so that you need a reasonably high amount of personal care or restricts your mobility to certain thresholds.

That's why filling in the claim form is so important as it is the claimants chance to explain how their condition affects them.

Most claimants make the classic mistake of believing the medical evidence will speak for itself. WRONG! The claimant MUST explain the affect of their illness/disability and refer it to the medical evidence and then link it to a descriptor. The assessor is not there to do that job for you they are there to assess what you have written. If a claimant fails to explain then the assessor will make assumptions on that basis. We often see claims they have lied, the truth is more likely that the form hasn’t be filled in with enough information for the assessor to award enough points.

Of course the real villains are the DWP/Tory Government who are fully aware of this and are happy for it to continue because 1. It keeps the benefit bill down and 2. ATOS and the other assessment companies cop the blame.

Anthony in my sons case they def did lie, they said my son arrived on his own and drove himself to his assesment, when the truth was a friend drove him there and went in with him. My son couldnt have possibly driven the distance as the assesement was in another town and his back condition would have made the journey very painfull for him to drive. They also lied on another account, when our son appealed and said they had lied they wernt interested.

I agree with Les about the real villains knowing this is happening and happy for it to continue, they all need to experience a crippling or debilitating ailment, then have to live on what we have left after losing our DLA and not getting PIP, then be told you cant keep your mobilty car either. Its easy to judge and make rules for other people when your sitting pretty, rich and painfree. 

Susan you may as well not appeal if your argument is the assessor 'lied' as the DWP and Tribunal take a dim view. You are better off stating that the assessor is mistaken and then explain why that on the balance of probabilities the assessor's 'opinion' was wrong.

I understand how you feel from what you have posted but we must also take into account that the assessor is not here to defend himself and give their reasons.

I have taken time to look at how these assessor's work and the rationale to their thinking. They are encouraged to make decisions which are 'in their opinion'; based on the evidence before them. Now I obviously don't know how the assessor came to the 'opinion' that your son was capable of driving to the assessment.

However I can 100% state that if you believe the assessor is wrong then in your appeal should be that 'on the balance of probabilities' your son can't drive to assessments because of his back condition I refer you to the supporting medical evidence.

Further you have to understand they don’t know your son like you do and are coming to conclusions based on what evidence is in front of them which is not always clear.

What claimants constantly overlook is that this is the assessors Achilles heal. I simply worded appeal using the balance of probabilities as your weapon of choice will win nearly every time, calling people liars is a simple appeal suicide note. It is a good habit to not call people liars but rather that they are mistaken.

Point taken Anthony, your right of course and if this was my appeal i personally wouldnt aggrivate them by saying they lied. Its not the first time ive read on hear about others being victims also writing down inaccurate facts and presuming. why not just ask? Its clearly seen by many of the stories its not a one off, You dont have to be a genius to see that these poor people clearly arnt capable of working, if we can see it wont cant they, or this what not its all about?  

 

Firstly Susan I wouldn't argue that there are poor assessors. 

Unfortunately claimants fail to understand the difference between a 'lie' and an 'error'. One is a malicious act the other is simply poor judgment so the DWP and Tribunal Service take the view it is out of order to accuse someone of committing a malicious act without overwhelming evidence. This has the perverse outcome of allowing another injustice slip through (the benefit appeal)

I'll try and explain how I see the problem. ATOS are service providers for the DWP who are known as 'clients'

The DWP call all the shots and they tell ATOS how to assess benefit claimants using a set of guide lines for both ESA & PIP. In the case of ESA there is an overriding goal to identify things that the claimant ‘can’ do, rather than what they ‘can’t’. This is why some people are found fit for work when they are clearly very ill. The assessor probably knows that as well but is hampered if they can’t fit claimants into a descriptor and has to award them ZERO points.

As explained earlier this is sometimes the claimants fault because they don’t fully explain their condition and how it affects them instead believing that the medical reports supplied will speak for itself. Assessors are not allowed to advise claimants on their claim and MUST only act on what is in front of them. So it is possible for a terminally ill cancer patient who has failed to give details of how the cancer affects them but has supplied details of diagnosis to be found fit for work.

Of course this leads to all kinds of bad publicity which ATOS and the other service providers take the brunt of because they are paid to. Meanwhile the Tory Government boasts that it is ‘cutting the welfare budget’ and gain more popularity with the electorate.

I totally agree with you Anthony, I think that's where we went wrong the assessor stated that my partner can do new tasks and carry them out to the end and also take messages from a person which he struggles to take in new information and as soon as he's walk away from someone who has spoke to him he has forgotten what they've said, we didn't explain this to the assessor 1 we just assumed he'd know this with the scans and 2 we felt like he just wanted a yes/no answer

Rachel you can now submit that as an additional evidence for the MR. Explain that your partner was unaware of the importance of filling the form in with such detail due to his disability.

Take the oppotunity to then explain on his/hers behalf and refer the Decision maker to the scans/medical record as supporting evidence.

Then state he fits the descriptors for covering distance and not being able to carry tasks

 

I fully understand where your coming from Anthony but what is this descriptor ?  Surley anyone suffering from cancer couldnt give the impression all is well and they are fit for work unless of course they are in very early stages like stage 1 where as 4 is very bad and terminal in most cases. Who ever thought out this descriptor well 10 out or 10 for coming up with a regime if this is the right word thats difficult for most to fit into, crafty and clever or what. Id like to know more about this descriptor if possible. Thanks for all your replys so far Anthony.

Sue 

Type in descriptor rules for pip on google, the whole questions and points charts comes up, moderator is holding back my reply link to enable all to see it 

Hi Susan

Both ESA and PIP have descriptors. Descriptors are activities which if you can't perform or need assistance with you will be awarded points. Score enough points and benefit is awarded. They are easily found with a Google search and cover everything from raising your hand up to a top pocket, to cooking, dressing, washing and mobility.

If for example a cancer sufferer with stage 4 applied for benefit but provided no explanation to how the illness affected them, then they would-not score any points. As explained it’s the Claimants responsibility to provide an explanation it is not the assessor’s job to do that for them.

That's normal but most of us have seen those documents many times lol

And theres me thinking id found something  new and usefull lol , would help if we were allowed to show it on hear for all to see, why the holding it back, this is a discussion about benefits section after all 

If for example a cancer sufferer with stage 4 applied for benefit but provided no explanation to how the illness affected them, then they would-not score any points.

A fantastic comment - something that the DWP could well do to put in the notes attached to the claim from as an example.

It's quite true, it doesn't matter what your condition is or how bad it affects you - if you don't give full details of how it affects you, linking the answer to a relevant descriptor and finding evidence that supports that view then you might as well use the claim form, torn into squares and hung from a string behind the toilet door! 

Some DO lie.

I have a long list from my own assessment the woman even inured physical results such as a peak flow reading... I didn't do Any test

Nor is a peakflow relevant to my case however had thay done one it would have shown a different reading because my asthma was bad that day (claim

.isn't for asthma)

When a social worker looked at my form he said it was not good and that he's had many forms that she's done brought to him.... Clearly she's lied many times.

Good luck

When a person writes the opposite to what happens it's a lie.

Such as to state how they arrived or how they presented themselves I had a panic attack she told me she can end it when ever she wants 3 times!

But I. Form says I Conversed kept eye Contact and was calm....all lies.

Rmanuni a lie is knowingly stating something which is untrue in order to injure someone else or gain something yourself.

What you have described is an error in judgment not a lie. You do yourself no good by stating the assessor is being malicious be accusing them of lying.

It is far better to concentrate on their 'mistakes' and use the balance of probabilities to win the argument.

Okay,

So being sat infront of a person.

Seeing them physically shake, cry, lack of breath, not having any eye contact with them

But saying the opposite... Is not a lie?

Questions I was asked, I answered and the notes stated opposite to my answers and I do have witness to this.

To say you asked the person if they would have physical assessment... And say they agreed

When you never asked that question and so they could not have agreed. To also included a number of physical assessment results which were never done

- Is a lack in judgement?

IF I want to say they lied or if I want to agree with a person on here I can do,

This is a forum - it is not my mandatory

reconsideration.

Yes this is a public forum and we can all have an opinion. I'm just trying to advise you that your assumption that the assessor is ‘lying’ is not necessarily true and certainly is not a helpful thing to do if a claimant is making an appeal.

You have to concede that the assessor is not here to defend themselves or give their side of the story. You state that they asked you questions which you answered but the assessor put down a different answer.

The reason for that could be he didn’t believe you and in his ‘opinion’ the answers you gave did-not fit the medical or assessment evidence.  I don’t know if that is the reason as I have not viewed all the evidence but having spoken to assessor’s that is the reason they often give for a conflicting view with the claimant.

An assessor is not obliged to put down word for word your version of your condition. As an ‘assessor’ they must weigh up all the evidence and come to a conclusion which may or may not be the same as yours.

Therefore it is only an ‘opinion’ which if wrong is poor judgement. This is actually a good thing as challenging a poor ‘opinion’ is easier than trying to prove the assessor acted with malicious intent.

Anthony, I beg to differ.  A deliberate lie is when someone says something happened when it didn't.  Someone arriving by car which someone else drove is a fact, saying that person drove themself is not a true fact so it is a lie.  I apreicate that the assessments can be subjective but stating that a person did something when they actually did something else is not subjective. A fact is a fact and not open to opinion.

Rmanuni, I agree that the assessors do in fact lie.  They are said to be do this time and time again.  To say a person drove themself to the assessment when in fact someone else drove is a non truth so it is a lie.  Part of the assessment can be opinion but if your coat is black that is fact, if the assessor says it is white that is a lie not an opinion.  It's a sad truth that they really do lie.

Again Beanieles the Assessor in this case is not here to give his side of the argument and again we have to rely on your version of events which is definitely not conclusive.

This one about driving cars comes up quite often. From what I have been told it is not a case of 'fact' that the claimant drove the car more that the assessor believes that they 'could' drive a car to the assessment based on ALL of the evidence. Therefore it is an ‘opinion’ which is passed onto the decision maker. The reason for this is that assessors are not allowed to draw conclusions from the fact someone else brought the claimant to the assessment instead they must establish whether there was a ‘need’ for assistance.

So again this a case of a claimant misinterpreting results of assessments and going off on tangent about assessors lying.

No-one has ever explained why assessors would maliciously lie? The urban myth about them getting bonuses is completely untrue. From what I know any bonus’ are dependent on accuracy which would mean assessors have no incentive to either pass or fail claimants just an incentive to get the decision right.

As explained Beanieles your interpretation is incorrect. The assessor (the clue is in the name) has to establish whether the claimant was capable of driving to the assessment, whether they did or did-not is irrelevant and is not evidence in itself.

Therefore it’s an opinion and if you believe that opinion is wrong then you should challenge it. I would advise against using the term ‘liar’ instead I would concentrate on the reason why it is impossible for the claimant to drive themselves.

Anthony it would seem that there are others who have experienced what our son did. How difficult is it for an assessor to ask a question to the claimant direct and take note of their answer instead of guessing what the answer may or could have been. The claiment is sitting there in front of them so just ask. I cant see the problem hear.  I agree a liar is the opposite to truth, so if the  assessor has clearly written something down knowing this  hasnt been said by the claimant then its a lie. Theres no need for quesse work when the claimant can answer for themselfes. 

 

Susan I have explained this a few times now. Just because others have failed assessments that is not proof that assessors have lied.

The assessors are not saying it is fact that your son drove to the assessment, instead they are saying in their 'opinion' he could drive due to the evidence presented before them.

You ask why can't the assessor ask questions? It is not the assessors job to try and find more evidence on behalf of the claimant. They can only ask questions on what the claimant has provided.

In any case it is very unlikely that the assessment failed on that descriptor alone there must have been other circumstances.

You're saying this to the wrong person,

I know how to argue this point in a reconsideration and further.

I was agreeing with a person that yes, they lie.

You can use any word you like.

If you say one thing and they say something else it's a lie 'mis judgement ' - it's a lie.

They claimed I blew into a peak flow meter.. And included a reading... I didn't do either...

I guess they misjudged the situation? No, they fabricated results.

No my son saw the written report, they said he arrived alone and presumed he drove himself there, so why not simply ask him  how did you get hear? They have the opportunity to ask when your sitting in front of them so are you saying our son should have written down in advance  i wont be able to drive myself there and i wont be coming alone. He has  back problems, evidence, hospital reports from the specialist, scans, medication  lists, He is very good at corrospondence, he told them all the facts, Why didnt then they question him on what he did write down? Him being the claiment, the facts he did provide.  What right have they to decide whether we could drive or not?  The silly medical was just sitting in a chair and asked to raise his arms!  

Anthony can i ask what your job is please? do you work for the DWP or something similar? Are you an assessor? Just curious as you seem to know the way they work and the way they think.

I forgot to say,

I aparently drove myself too.

I'm 29 and have never owned a drivers license let alone a car.

I am not actually permitted to drive atm because of medication and relapses I'm my condition.

This isnt good at all,  on one hand we are supposed to tell them how our ailment affects us, like i cant drive and reasons behind this, but then it seems to be assumed everyone drove them selfs there which in some cases would contradic how some say their ailment or illness affects them.

Driving involves using arms, hands legs and feet and such movements would deem it impossible for some to drive  due to discomfort and pain caused.

None of this seems to be taken on board, why?  As in your case and many others they cant drive because of their medication.None of this makes any sence at all.And you dont even own a drivers licence! lol