Natural Medicine

Thank you kathleen.

Hi, yes I will help as much as possible, I know I have lost an inch in height because the osteoporosis is in my spine.  I have done a lot of research on the net. and the most recent seems to be getting the ratio of calcium to magnesium correct in order to balance out the process of bone absorbtion and bone renewal.  Our bodies have a natural process of bone absorption the cells responsible for the absorbtion of bones are osteoclasts and the cells for renewing bone are osteoblasts, with osteoporosis the osteoclasts live longer, taking too much bone and so the osteoblasts cannot renew the bone quick enough, resulting in bone density loss.  You will have to read up on what k2, zinc, manesium, and D3 do for your bones a little yourself, it is too much to explain.  D3 should have about 500mg of calcium and also vitamin D3 in one tablet.  Myself I will balance the D3 calcichews with the same ratio as magnesium, 500mg, based on research I have done on the net.  I cannot advise you on this, personaly elizabeth, as I am not medicaly qualified, but by all means i will let you know what I am trying myself, the rest is up to you.  The D3, I currently get from my GP as I am hoping the ratio is correct.  Basicly elizabeth they all work together to ensure they are directed to the corect places and broken down where needed.  If you have a problem finding information in more detail, let me know again and I will try to explain in more detail.  I am currently getting my supply from Holland and Barrett, it is not cheap, unfortunately, I can't help to direct you to cheaper products it is such a competative market, be very careful where you buy your supplements from.  I hope I have helped you elizabeth.

The cause of my osteopenia and osteoperosis was because of an early menapause in my late 20s, I am now in my 50s,so I think I have done well, due to good diet, exercise and on occasion taking phytoestrogen for a few years, which is a plant form of estrogen.  I have found information on the internet which has put all, what I would call valuable information from internet websites, that I have found to be the most reliable repitable and valuable, together, which has enabled me at last to find in wrtting a claim that tests for phyto- estrogen acts in a similar way in our bodies, so to protect our bones.  unfortunately it also says on that site that phyto- estogens have side affects, as HRT does, but so was compared with HRT.  It would seem nearly all the side affects related to people who were still having their periods, and as I am not, it narowed the side affects down to about a possible one or two for me, so based on this evidence it is worth my trying the phyto-estrogens again, but on a regular basis this time. 

As you can see elizabeth, I have been very busy with research since my first post that you have read.

I hope this also helps you.  Anything else I can help with please

ask. xx

Thank you Ruby for your kindness in responding to me and yes, this is helpful. I do as much research as I am able, but am hampered by Glaucoma and cataracts at the moment. This translates into I can only read print for short bursts because the letters start to blur into one moving black line. So slowly I will get there. I have been watching Sanjay Gupta's blog on YouTube regarding Magnesium in its various forms and this is quite illuminating. You may have seen this yourself but if not it is worth finding and watching. He is a Heart Specialist at York Hospital and mainly talks about protecting the heart but this can translate also into what we are looking for as well. I have the balance of calcium and D3 as you mention above. I am looking at K1 and 2 as one capsule and will check the price at Holland and Barrett plus Zinc. The Magnesium Taurate I take come in 180mg capsules and are expensive so to get to 500mg I would have to take 3 a day so I am looking to find another source in hopefully the right format. I have lost 3" in height (which was a big shock) and also my neck is now curved as a hump. It is unfortunate that my last surgery missed all the pointers 1) I was due a 5 year DEXA scan 3 years ago and they missed that 2) constant visits to them complaining of sciatica which was getting worse and worse until I was no longer able to walk 3) I was obviously walking with a stoop which was finally noticed by a lady GP who sent me for a DEXA scan last January. The rest is now history. Had they acted earlier I believe the outcome would have been different. Even after diagnosis I was not referred to a Rheumatologist or a PHysio. My new surgery (100 miles away) sent urgent requests for my medical records and all scans over 3 months ago but they only came through last week. Now they can act but it is all lost time. But I must put all this aside and concentrate on getting the help I need now and also looking outside the NHS to find supplements to help myself. So thank you again for sharing which has been very helpful to me.

Regards, Lizzie

Just read this after replying to your earlier post Ruby. I had an emergency Hysterectomy at 34 and also went into early menopause. At 43 I was put on HRT patches which I found really beneficial and enjoyed a hard working long hours career until I was abruptly taken off it at the same surgery mentioned in my reply at the age of 60. Now 66 I have been in decline since then. At 58 I had a DEXA scan which revealed some osteopenia and also osteoporosis with my hips being the worse. I changed my diet to include a lot of oily fish (and bones) which I continue to this day. At that point I was offered Alendric Acid but, like you, refused it. However, no other advice was offered at that time. It seems if you refuse AA, they don't want to know you afterwards. I wish I had looked into alternatives then but the information in its present form did not seem to be around for me to find. I strongly believe HRT helped my bones but now they say research does not support this as previously thought. Just another example of reverse on health dictats I fear. No wonder we become confused!

I will look into the above with interest and if I find anything helpful will share back. Thank you again for your time and information. You are a Blessing

Lizzie

You are welcome Lizzie.  Maybe you can get someone to read for you, I hope you have someone who can to help you.

You can private message links.  Click on the little envelope below the person's name and you will go to a page where you can send a private message.

Links to other pages in Patient are automatically approved, and there are other medical sites which go to moderation which are often approved.  But if you want to make sure a person gets a particular link, best to private message.

Thank you, I would like to share with all, so I might just chance it and put them all up for Elizabeth, and for all to see.

thank you again. x

Your welcome Janis, look at diet as well, plenty of fresh vegetables are reccomended, but apparantly not dairy products, i love all dairy so i can summise this has not helped me.

That sounds really odd as I've always associated dairy products with calcium. Oh dear, now I'm really sad as I LOVE cheese!!

 

So do I, don't despair, you need to investigate and research this yourself to decide. x

I have been told that dairy in moderation is fine, butter has made a comeback (not the demon it has been made out to be) and that 'natural' dairy products are better for us than the man-made alternatives. If you look at some of the spreads on the market and the little 'extras' in them to make them spreadable from fridge the infills are not good for us. Dairy may not help us with our bone density problems but still can be included and enjoyed in our diet in moderation. Oily fish (with the bones as in tinned salmon) should be included as at least 5 portions weekly. I tend to make that work for me at lunchtime by having pichards or sardines on toast, tuna in sunflower oil (part drained) with cucumber with skin on, lettuce and avocado. salmon with a spoon of creme fraiche. salad bits and a squeeze of lemon etc etc. You can come up with your own ideas to accommodate oily fish alongside other healthy options. Leafy green vegetables in all forms are excellent as well. For anyone still working these foods are easily put together as packed lunches. I believe there is so much more information out there for us to find and you are very good at finding it. I'm afraid I live alone so do not have anyone to read for me but today suddenly thought that I can print these pages and choose extra large print so that I can read for longer periods of time. I would not have thought of this Ruby other than your comment made me think outside the box. Thank you!    

I get the impression that taking/eating loads of calcium is not the answer to osteoporosis. I did read that strangely the countries where people eat the most dairy foods are also the ones with the most osteoporosis. Eg northern europe and US have much more than Japan and parts of Africa where dairy food is eaten less. There must be something a lot more complex going on. (Wish I knew what it was!)

Hi Janish

This thread is becoming more than interesting = Please read my return posts to Ruby and I know from past experience that Anhaga also has a wealth of good information to share. As Anhaga says, her friend is inspirational and as this info is shared between us all....may we all be "Inspired" !

 

Janish, you can eat cheese.  There's nothing wrong with consuming dairy in moderation as Elizabeth says.  Over the course of a day I probably consume between one and two glasses of liquid milk, but not as a glassful of milk.  It's in my tea or on my cereal.  I eat cheese and yoghurt and frequently drink kefir.  But I don't rely on it as my main calcium source.  It's part of my balanced diet which includes many different foods, although I have drastically cut back on grains, particularly wheat.  Google non dairy sources of calcium for ideas.  Bet you'll be pleasantly surprised to find out you're already getting quite a lot in your food.  Heard recently we should aim to get half our calcium from food and only half from supplements, about 600 mg each, I think, although I'd have to check to be sure.  Taking Vitamin K2 helps to avoid the cardiac problems and kidney stones which excess calcium can cause.

My understanding is that cheese and yoghurt in particular are excellent. I have milk in my tea and cooking. So I do not agree with the anti dairy premise.

There are other sources of calcium of course but I find I can more easily getting my four serves per day by including dairy. I also love my dairy. 

People have different views but I find if you do not have an intolerance then dairy is fine!

I have things to avoid but dairy is not one of them.

I still find it questionable that dairy should be considered so important as humans are the ONLY animals on the planet which consume milk, designed for infants, throughout our lives.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, just that it is yet another thing which sets us apart, like cooking.  And possibly may make at least some of us ill.

My husband cannot have dairy but it is good for me and seems to keep everything working happily. I have Crohns and diverticulitis so it must be individual. I love nuts but supposed to avoid them so something good for one person may not be so for another. 

If it works well for an individual then it is a good source of a variety of nutrients even vitamin k.

Yes....exactly Janis, new information and research from diffrent countries is available all the time now on the net.  But It is researching into the sites that are genuine as well.  I find this has taken me quite some time, over many years.

Glad to help Liz.....anything at all. x

Yes Kathleen, it is all personal choice at the end of the day, and thank goodness we are able to make our own choices about our health and how we wish to help our own bodies to recover from ailments. x

Yes, if the cattle are grass fed that is how we can get Vitamin K2.  I understand that traditionally a lot of our K2 came from butter and cheese, and free range chickens and their eggs. The reason so many of us are now deficient is because our animals are often grain fed and can't make K2 in sufficient amounts to help us.  

Ok Anhaga! Here is Aus they are out on large grassy areas. We can see them as we travel around. 

That's good.  Provided they are not being "finished" with grain your Vit K2 source should be good for meat, and sounds like dairy is good, too!

I think the old advice of having a balanced diet is still good advice. Meat and three veggies for dinner and add a salad for lunch, etc.

Agreed, although being a vegetarian complicates things a bit for me.  Just came in from choir and ate a delicious pear and am drinking my evening ginger tea.  

Wow, you are a healthy person. Singing is good for you and then a pear and also ginger tea. 

Well done.

Im afraid Kathleen the cows you see are exported to other countries

You have to read the label or ask your butcher

Most are grain fed

Are you in Australia! I take a K2 tablet daily as well.

A lot of our produce is locally sourced. Australia has a lot of land and many rich grazing areas.

Please don't give up on cheese as it's a good source of K2, which is important for bone health - gouda and brie are especially good sources apparently.

Thanks for the lunch ideas - really useful. I'm used to having tinned sardines for breakfast, but I like your salad suggestions, which seem better for lunch than breakfast