23 Month old waking multiple times nightly - working parents

Hi Davidt, my sincere sympathies this is a hard one.

As you've already been to the sleep consultant could you telephone to ask if they can see you again?

Has anything changed in your little boys daily routine since June? He may be, without you realising, be unhappy at something at Nursey or just adjusting to being a toddler and a bit reticent about learning new things.

My son was like this over 30 years ago. We tried something called Vallergan prescribed by our gp (may be incorrect spelling it was a long time ago) which I was not happy with but did help get him off for a while sometimes when we were desperate. I also had another son who slept like a log and still does.

I'm not sure if I should tell you this but we never got on top of it. As he became older he was allowed to play quietly on his bed with non noisy toys as long as he stayed in his room and let the rest of us sleep.

He has always been the same. His wife goes mad because he rolls into bed at 3/4am and is up again at 6 and off for the day.

At about 18 months we were told he was very bright and his brain was always on the go and hard for him to slow it down.This was the only thing they could pinpoint. This proved to be true, he does 3 times more than the rest of us, is very succesful and does so many different things, the rest of us can't keep up with him and have given up trying.

He now has 3 sons, one who is exactly the same, at least he understands and they play chess in the wee small hours together.. quietly.

On the other hand your little boy may suddenly settle down and sleep. It could be a phase as he learns to deal with growing up and all it's scary happenings.

I do hope you can get some help, you need to go back to the gp and have a chat. it's no fun I know when we are working with no sleep and a toddler who does not co-operate.

Hi and thanks for reply,

yes he started Play group 2 weeks ago for the first time, learning lots of new things

and exploring the outdoors. He really likes this and doesnt cause any fuss when we drop him off, I feel he is now in a habit of waking and doesnt even know why he wakes.

We are returning to the consultant tomorrow to discuss it.

Other people have said the same regarding sleep and some kids may never sleep properly, depressing to

think though

You are very welcome, I do hope that he gets the hang of sleep soon.

Good to hear you are seeing the consultant tomorrow. He is probably having a ball at nursery and learning to think about it later on, keeping him awake at night.

I'm sure as he has settled down before, he will do again.

In thirty years it'll seem a breeze!!!

Good luck sleepy Dad... and Mum of course.

Hi Davidt,

I have had a similar problem that was solved. I tried everything and checked everything in every book I could find. Finally found a book written by an ex nanny which solved the problem by advising three things:

1) if your child wakes crying check your baby does not have reflux.

2) Follow a rigid regime of meal, rest,bed and waking times that you impose. A nursery will keep to this for you too.

3) only use full cream milk especially at night ( apparently some infants brains need much more fat than we realise) To sort out my child's sleeping problem I gave her fish oils once a day and full fat milk at every opportunity at meal times and she started sleeping right through the night within 3 days.

I stumbled on your post and was drawn to post a reply just in case my experience might help. I hope you manage to find a solution.

All the best.

Hi David

A few of my friends had chronic sleep problems, meaning years and years of poor sleep.A few of them started taking iodine plus a good multivite and they sleep much better. Most doctors will advise against iodine supplementation. We read a book by Dr David Brownstein on Iodine-Why You Need It, and opted to supplement with iodine. with good results.

Do talk to a good doctor about this. All the best.

Hi Thoughtful,

Thanks for your response.

1.Our little fella is beyond reflux at this stage I would have thought?, isnt reflux for under 9 month babies?

2. We visited the sleep Consultant last xmas and she stated we should allow 90 mins sleep per day in the

afternoons, the main criteria here was to ensure the bedtime was no greater than 5 hours after waking from

the day nap, usually he will sleep 1 - 230pm daily and we put to bed at circa 7pm after a bath. (he will have evening tea at 5pm and a milk bottle at 630pm).

3. He drinks approx 4 oz of full fat milk every evening.

Hi Sanwil,

Why do most Doctors advise against the iodine?, must have good reason to?

Just had another thought David, my two grandsons go to sleep with a cd playing very quietly in the background. They have a couple of them specially made of lullabys and soft sound.

One is 3 and one is 4 months. I have bought a small cd/radio which I use when they stay overnight with me.

My daughter-in-law was advised to do this when the elder boy was fractious at about a year old.

It becomes a sleep trigger after a while. I don't know why I didn't think about it in my earlier post.

It may be worth a try.

Hope you had a successful visit to the consultant today.

Hi David

the main reason for opposition is a disagreement on the RDA (Recommended Daily amounts/allowance). Dr Brownstein believes the RDA if 125-150 micrograms of Iodine is incorrect.

And the fact that many doctors believe that since our salt is iodized, we should be meeting our daily amounts. Apparently that Iodine is not enough, plus we need iodine in two forms for our health.

Anyway, there are many signs to look out for to check for iodine deficiency, dark rings around the eyes, tired look, listless, very dry hair and skin amongst some, ... I speak from memory , so there may be other signs.

the best thing to do would, if he has the above symptoms, would be to do the iodine loading test, to check for deficiency.

There could be other reasons... food intolerance? My daughter never could take in enough milk because she was intolerant to milk, and therefore drank very little of it and then of course was hungry in the small hours and woke up crying most nights. she'd sleep off again and then wake up crying again.

If I were you I'd work with a doctor who is a Medical Doctor but who also knows alternative medicine. Many of them do blood work to test for vitamin and mineral deficiencies and take it from there.

All the best. I know it must be very VERY trying for the mums and dads when their children don't sleep.

Just had another thought... have you tried one of the subliminal programming cds? One brand out there is Innertalk and they sell cds or dvds with subliminal messages for sleep disorders. That might work.

All the best.

You know night waking is normal at a mere 23 months though, yes? It's a problem because you are full time employed, rather than it being a problem with the child. Any teething, growth spurts, developmental spurts, change in routine, upset or stress, impedending illness or current illness, allergies, food sensitivites etc cause night waking. It's biologically normal for infants and toddlers to wake throughout the night, usually because of the above reasons and the fact they are wired to nurse (breastfeed) for the pain relievers, brain boosters, immunity, hormonal and sensory regulation, comfort and emotional regulation etc etc that comes from that.

Do you or have you tried cosleeping? That makes it much easier on everyone All children are different so just because one slept easily or alot doesn't mean another sibling will too. A toddler waking is normal and part of being a parent. Go on a forum like naturalmamas.co.uk and you will quickly see this.

Acitivity levels and quality time is another thing that can affect sleep. The vocab explosion around 21-24 months is one of the most common reasons for night waking at this time. It will pass. If he's not already, snuggle up with him and enjoy it whilst it lasts, the bonding and the restful sleep.

This sounds nothing like a sleep disorder, it's sad to see so many people have lost touch with what is normal and i suppose it's no wonder with all the convenience control based nonsense the 'parenting guru's' spout

I'm actually a Producer at Channel 4 and we are making a programme that covers the ‘bedtime battles’ that parents have to deal with - from their children's night terrors to bed wetting to wanting to sleep in the parental bed etc.

We have some of the best Child Psychologists /Sleep Experts in the UK working on this with us and we would love to hear your story.

If you wouldn't mind giving me a quick call on 020 7438 1851 that would be much appreciated.

I really hope I can help.

Many thanks,

Jacqueline

jacqueline. paul at twofour .co.uk

Hi David,

hope your little one is sleeping a little better.

I have some other thoughts that you might like to consider.

Firstly, just a note about reflux: My child was found to have reflux when about the same age as your child andstill has it several years later. It is probably caused by an allergy to cows milk , but could also be to do with an undeveloped valve , which allows stomach acid back up , which causes pain if she lies down too soon after drinking or eating. This was the main reason for her continuous waking when she was small. To deal with the problem a form of gaviscon , suitable for babies , was added to her milk in the evening and we took care not to give food or fluid too close to bed time. I would be tempted to explore this with your GP as it is far more common than I had realised but is rarely diagnosed.

Secondly, here is my other rather controversial solution :

Whether or not reflux is diagnosed : If your baby is a very "sucky" baby, even at 2 yrs or 3 yrs old then consider using a soother(dummy). I found when I placed two or three in my child's bed at night and watched her on a screen monitor the following happened:

1) went to sleep with soother.

2) soother fell out of mouth and in to bed when fell asleep

3) Woke a few hours later

4) she fished about for a couple of minutes looking for a soother

5) found it

6) she popped it back in her mouth

7) went back to sleep

..... and this pattern continued untill morning but no crying and after a week at no time did she fully wake up ( she semi woke and fished in her sleep)

Now I can hear all those gasps of horror from certain quarters who will tell you that this is shocking..... But you can bet your bottom dollar they have not had to cope with a baby or an infant that repeatedly fully wakes or the ill effects that this excessive waking has on a child at this age. Don't listen to the "this is normal" righteous brigade that has no better intention that to make a working parent feel guilty..... take advice from a very experienced paediatrician and one of those highly experienced nannies like Gina Ford ( Niether of whom would recommend dummies long term ) but who will really help you.

Now, the dummy was only temporary to get in to the habit of sleeping through the night (as a matter of interest always in a pitch black room) after getting the reflux sorted ( in all about a year ) it did not affect the teeth as it was only available to my child at night and only for a very few minutes when falling asleep and it was not addictive ( not many children past three would need one in this way ) and so long as it is only used at night then you will find it could be a very simple solution to waking . It worked as a way of breaking the habit of fully waking in the night many times and as a way of helping our child settle back to a deep sleep quickly so she was eventually unaware of waking in the night at all.

Obviously the professionals and Doctors must be consulted and their advice taken but our experience might be worth considering especially as these potential simple solutions have worked well for a number of infants that have experienced serious sleep problems.

All the best,