Advice / experiences with gall bladder removal please.

That's great. I'm so glad it's Norma. Yes I too still have the mark on my hand from the cannula I mark very easy and yes. As long as its normal I'm happy.

Thanks Ant.

Did anybody see Mingoman's reply before it got deleted? I just wondered what they said. I forgot what I asked them now. I ad another attack last night. Why does it always get you at 3am?! No sleep after that. Feel so tired now...

Hey!

I didn't see their reply, no.

So sorry you had another attack 😔 if it helps my doctor prescribed buscopan for me whilst I was waiting for my op. He said it would help. Please visit the hospital if you need to they may give you something via IV.

Yes, they gave me Buscopan when I first went to A&E in Nov. I have a box of it on hand. I took a couple when I had my second attack a week later, after visiting a restaurant, even though I had tried to eat healthily. I'd also taken a couple of Nurofen which didn't touch the pain, so took a couple of Cocodamol a few hours later. Not sure if I took them too close together, but an hour after that ended up with a sudden, weird, cold, empty feeling in my chest and couldn't feel my pulse. Then I lost consciousness whilst walking across the landing, but fortunately didn't fall down the stairs. Bumps and bruises all over, woke the whole house, except my eldest. Another trip to A&E, in an ambulance this time, and another 7 hour wait with a pounding headache, surrounded by fed-up, ill-looking clubbers but avoided another admission. Ruined my wife's birthday though, sadly. I try not to take any pills now. The couple of attacks I have had since then have been manageable, but have robbed me of sleep, and caused some anxiety in case they escalated in intensity. Whilst awake at 4am the other night I watched a Lap Chole on YouTube, done by Progressive Surgical Associates, I think it was (American). Still not sure it is for me though.

Hey.

Have they told you to what extent your gallbladder /stones are at and how big they are? My experience seems to be somewhat different to everyone else's. I could go months without an attack then the pain would be there and last 48hrs or more.

It sounds like your health is being effected so much by this I would seriously consider your options. If a stone ends up moving through you could end up with pancreatits which I've heard is so painful and could even be life threatening.

Countless trips to the doctors got me nowhere. Most were unwilling to remove it until I kept going back every day and then a doctor agreed to refer me.

Maybe you need another scan to see what's happening? I've got to say I was so scared for surgery, petrified of any side effects, but if I don't have to have that pain again I would do it again tomorrow. It's such an awful, helpless pain. I really hope you get some help soon.

Steph

Sorry I've just looked back and can see you had an ultrasound with small stones.

I think maybe it's worth going to the gp and asking about urso. But I have heard they carry so many side effects and are ineffective with most people. Considering they'll be much smaller after taking urso and then can easily pass and get stuck, also you have to consider you may have attacks whilst your waiting for them to dissolve (if they do) and then be on a waiting list for surgery. I would deffinately weigh up the pros and cons. Only you can decide

Steph

Mine was mostly in the evening, it's not nice at all. Deffo chase them. That's good it's keeping it at bay.

Steph

2am and retching again. Can't take much more of this. Haven't slept a wink so far tonight. Going back to see my GP, and might see if I can eat humble pie with the surgical team. Has humble pie got any fat in it? Affecting my work and home life now. Feel awful.

very sorry to hear that. if you are not doing it already do try a very low fat, as close to zero as possible (no butter, oils, fatty meats, non skimmed milk, etc. anything that has more than a trace of fat in them). also no alcohol. diet.

hopefully that will keep your symptoms down until the professionals can do something about it.

best wishes

Gary

But Garry, if the stones are cholesterol based and are not bigger than 20mm they can definitely be dissolved with Urso.

I was told by 4 of my GP's that it might not work! My Surgeon said the opposite and confirmed yes Urso will dissolve gall stones...... Best bit is Urso did work for me. I still have a functioning symptom free gall bladder 3 years after the dissolution treatment. It is best for anyone who thinks they know about this subject to research it FULLY because the full picture is on the internet for all to see. No one should believe all they read on the internet but Ursodeoxycholic acid does dissolve gall stones of cholesterol type.

Liver function test is essential before and during the treatment.

My treatment lasted 6 months and a small dose later when I felt a 'twinge'

in the right under rib area. I have no symptoms whatsoever now.

Any person with the symptoms I had I felt could not carry on like that for longer than a few days due to being up all night vomiting with no sleep.

I don't know about the symptoms being there at 3 AM because my symptoms were apparent in the early evening about an hour or two after the evening meal......... You don't need much fat either to bring on those diabolical symptoms.

Yes, I am attempting to avoid harmful sat fats in my diet, and have a mountain of alcohol left over from Xmas, untouched. However, I have read that consuming alcohol (in moderation) actually prevents gallstones from forming. My diet was fine up until now, and I had been clear for a month or so, but then had a couple of attacks this week. Both were attributable to eating something I probably shouldn't have. A small piece of steak on Sunday, and some gammon the night before last both caused an unpleasant reaction. I had to take yesterday off work, which I don't like doing, in case they start trying to take sickness absence action against me. I have agreed with my lovely wife that although a varied diet is good, at this stage, we need to stick to our low fat guns, as I am not out of the woods yet, by any stretch. Back on the beans on toast for now...

If you research the ' low fat diet' you will find that a 'low fat diet' in some can actually cause gall stones due to the bile not being flushed and 'stagnates' so that residues form and cause calculii to form.

As I said Ursodeoxycholic acid taken under the instructions of a doctor who is experienced with that regime will stop gall stones forming.

That acid is also given to patients with cirrhosis because it helps the liver in those that take it under medical supervision.

If your stones are small you might want to try to flush them with the olive oil and lemon as above post but make sure you are at the side of the loo if you condescend try it. I see that the flushing method is even done on the NHS but was poo pooed prior to 'them' being more experienced and enlightened......... Does every doctor you have ever met know fully what he/she is doing on your behalf ?

Yes, I know a small amount of healthy fats (i.e. not sat fats) are required, not just to keep the gallbladder functioning in some capacity, but also to minimise the maddening tinnitus that goes along with this condition. Some people have linked the inability to absorb fats, and fat-soluble vitamins as the cause for this. My tinnitus (loud hissing noise) varies, but seems to increase when my digestive system is doing some work. My tinnitus almost faded away completely last night. I am not sure why, but it was a welcome break from it for a while at least. All I had to eat yesterday half a tin of beans on toast, with some low-fat spread on - for both lunch and tea. No breakfast, as I felt so ill after gammongate the other night, but most mornings I can eat a bowl of Fruit & Fibre with semi-skimmed milk, with no ill effects. I have on occasion had the odd bit of bacon, and low fat sausage and egg, again with no ill effects. This is normally consumed in the middle of the day though. I am not sure if the timing counts for anything, but having recently eaten small amounts of steak and gammon in my evening meal, these both caused problems at 3-4am. These are both now removed from my diet, now my wife can see the effects on me are still very much an issue. I was afraid to refuse it, in case I ended up wearing it, and just ate it, hoping I'd get away with it. I didn't.

A balanced diet is all that's required and even saturated fat in the correct proportions is needed apparently. A lot of the very old folk and I'm talking 80 to 90 year olds seem to know more about diet than anyone..... butter not marge etc etc. The gall stones it is noted can mostly be due to hereditary and I remember my grandma having what they called bilious bouts but she did not get any treatment at all. She was 84 when she went but that was premature as she fell downstairs and broke her collar bone & she never got over that.

I am very surprised more who have their gall bladder removed do not seem to know anything at all about the fact that they can in some circumstances be dissolved. I chose to try to dissolve mine because I had had a biopsy a few months before they said out with it! Being 70 + added another 20% risk I would not get off the table so I thought better to dissolve than the knife.

It is over three years now and at 79 I am very OK.

The information I posted previously about duration of treatment and contraindications of Urso came from the NICE guidance on the drug (https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/ursodeoxycholic-acid.html#indicationsAndDoses).

There is further NICE guidance about Gallstones here https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg188, which also states “Although ursodeoxycholic acid has been used for the management of gallstone disease, there is no evidence to support its use.”

It is also well reported that Gallstones can block the pancreatic duct and cause acute pancreatitis, some of the symptoms of which are similar to Biliary Colic (the pain you get with a Gallstone attack). The NICE guidelines for pancreatitis (https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/NG104) state that 15%-20% of people with the severe form of this this die in hospital and even those that survive are likely to need long term inpatient care and it can permanently impact their quality of life. As I previously mentioned I knew two people that fell in to that 15%-20%.

For these reasons alone I would be wary of partially dissolved Gallstones blocking the pancreatic duct and certainly would never try the ‘olive oil flush’ which could probably force many stones into the common bile / pancreatic duct.

I am not a medical professional and have no links with NICE or any other medical body, just a person who has done some research and investigations into my problem.

At 3/5ths your age, I'm not sure I can use age, and op risk, to strengthen my case for using Urso. It just always seems preferable to me to fix something, if possible (which it seems it is), rather than have it removed. I feel medication, even with some side-effects, is the safer, gentler way to try first. Did you get any side effects from using the Urso? Although I have tried Apple Cider Vinegar in Apple Juice for a short while, I'm not sure about using these 'flushes,' in case the oil part of the flush causes a strong GB attack. If I have no luck with my local NHS, I would consider going further afield to get Urso, if it was possible. Was your surgeon in Notts, NHS or Private? If Private, what was a ball-park figure for a 6 month course of treatment?

Well, here I am again. Another 3am post. Had chicken and rice last night, albeit was slightly curried. Previously been OK on that. Not this time. Got all the squelching, gurgling noises, raised body temp & heart rate, and strange, cold feeling in my upper digestive tract. No pain, nausea / vomiting though, just general discomfort and unable to sleep. Not done very well this week, have I? I think I'll need to exclude all meat from my evening meals. Just not worth it. Been trying to sleep in an elevated position to aid digestion, but not really sure that is helping or not. Even when having beans on toast, and no symptoms, I still woke up at 4am. I think it has developed into an annoying pattern now. I wonder / fear what effect all this lack of sleep will have on my poor ticker...

yeah your definitely going through it this week unfortunately. its definitely such activity which will force your hand to have surgery, Instant resolve!!!!

I didnt have half as many issues as you but the 3am troubles, lack of sleep, worry etc made me commit to that decision. That and seeing a family member go through an emergency GB removal a few weeks earlier.

I work away a lot out of country. Many nights in a hotel in a strange country miles away from anywhere pacing the room at 3am panicking in case it was all about to go critical lol. I couldnt do that anymore.

Literally about 7-8 weeks ago i got home and spent the next week in a similiar position as yourself but not as bad. At the same time a family member was recovering from emergency GB surgery and had explained how bad it was. I called the surgeon secretary and had myself booked in with him asap.

Its natrual to try a remedy first and maybe itll work but if you decide to go down surgery route it is 100% instant relief albeit a week or so of recovery.

i hope you get better soon either way. its a dreadful situation to be in.

The forum has deleted two post of mine yesterday and today which is very frustrating; I don't know why the system has done that.

The treatment did not cost me anything. My Surgeon is Mr SL Parsons.

senior gastric surgeon Nottm City Hos.

I did not have any symptoms & yet he said irt was a horrible way to get rid of the stones .... 5 stones 17mm & smaller. 1 = 10 mm after 6 months & another very small. You may feel the stones pass when they are small enough..... The NHS do a flush now. They have 'changed their minds on that one'. Previously the inexperience registrar who had not heard of the dissolution treatment had never heard of the flush either.... We are in such a learners hands! I see urso is buyable on the net! It states liver function before and each week for a month. My liver function was not 100 % to start with and I don't know what it is now but I can confirm it is functioning properly and as I've said I eat a balanced diet.

I've always cut all fat of any meat I've eaten but a Heart doctor said to me once when I challenged him (before I knew what he was) A customer of mine is young but a blood specialist & he does not eat a bit of 'fat'.

He replied - there's more to heart disease than cholesterol I can tell you.....

Hence my mum in law 94 loved a regular dripping sarnie & smoked till she was 85 (Navy Cut) Never ate marge ..... nether do we... I'm 79 and my better 1/2 is 73....... I think I'm fitter but I could croak it at any time at my age.

My decent gall bladder & the bloke who posesses it does not owe my GP's anything or the learner who knew nowt.

Ruq Payne please see my post which has shifted below another re the head of gastric surgery City Hos Notts. Incidentally there are many as you can see who advocate 'out of hand' removing the gall bladder. If you look in the archives in the same topic you will see many who have bad issues even when their gall bladder has gone. This is not a minor item nor is any operation.

It is stated that past 70 adds another 10% likely hood that the patient might follow his/her gall bladder to the furnace.

People tell lies or they just do not know either is bad if a patient is relying on that person.

Thanks for the responses, all. I got sent home from work today. I couldn't concentrate / keep my eyes open. I had to lie down in the sick room for a bit, to get the energy to drive home. I just slept when I got back. Apart from the general malaise, and sleep deprivation, I wouldn't say I was actually experiencing pain. The upper part of my innards just feel 'cold' - that is the only way I can describe it. What does that mean? My only concern now is whether I will have the luxury of 6 months to try Urso, even if my GP succeeds in his investigation. After three horrendous nights, followed by three horrendous days, I think I just need to put this week (and meat) behind me, and get back on an even keel... if I can.

I had the best night's sleep I'd had in ages on Friday night. I woke up on Saturday morning feeing totally normal. Did some work, tidying the garden, and mended a broken fence panel. Felt great. Not so good last night though, despite eating my go-to safe food, beans on toast. Restless again most of the night, and felt tiredness and nausea all day today. You say you had a biopsy. Was this some kind of endoscopic extraction of a gallstone, to identify what it was made of? Is this necessary before starting Urso, to make sure the medication is likely to work? Or can they tell the composition of the stones via other means?

Ruq Pane My biopsy was not to do with my gall bladder but it might have been. The biopsy involved a cut below the navel that healed after two months. It was a few months after that my gallbladder symptoms were bad so that is why I decided to research if there was a different course of action to avoid the knife within a few months of the biopsy episode.

It seems not may follow the dissolution technique or can find doctors who are experienced in that regime. With a doctor who is fully conversant with

Urso and the monitoring of the patient which you are aware of I cannot see why the dissolution technique is not more popular.

I fully realize all constitutions are not the same but I can honestly say as I said before I did not have any symptoms from the urso but I did have symptoms from the gall stones but the gall stone symptoms decreased

dramatically after even a couple of months. You will see in the research articles that the dissolution procedure is a scientific procedure that when the acid is working the gall stones are gradually dissolved....... It may well be that if a gall stone is passed the person may feel that happening.

There are many for reasons known only to them will condemn what cured me but it is their prerogative to do just that if that is how they carry on in life. For myself I am truthful in saying the procedure I chose did the trick.

You are the only person who can choose and it can be a worrying problem.

If you would rather not go in for the keyhole cholestectomy but try the softer method and you make sure you are well monitored at all times you may well come out the other side with a gall bladder with no stones in it!

I sincerely hope that will be the case. I have had another day off work today, as my stomach feels like it is full of ice. I can only assume this stomach chill is potentially some kind of gallstone related irritation / infection. I do not have a fever, vomiting or diahorrea though. I felt nauseous all day yesterday and didn't get much sleep beyond 3:40 am when this stomach sensation woke me up. I'm seeing my GP mid-month to see if Urso is on the cards or not. Not sure whether to go back sooner re: this weird stomach chill though.

You do know that if you do dissolve stones, they will come back. You will still have a gallbladder full of stones. And you will be doing this the rest of your life. How fun.

And if I never adjust to the loss of my gallbladder, and have permanent morning bile sickness and diarrhoea, as happens to some people, I'll be doing that for the rest of my life. If that happens, you can't just pop the gallbladder back in, and try the tablets afterwards. It is a one way trip.

RuqPayne I have now probably spoken to a 100 people that have had their gallbladder removed. Only one of them experienced a problem and that was due to the fact that they started with the keyhole surgery but had to have it converted to the full operation.

Of course there will be some people that will have problems or the symptoms you describe but I am certain you will find that is very much the minority.

As has previously been mentioned forums like this are not a good sample of people's experience. The majority of people that have never had a problem would not look for a forum like this or post a message to it. Therefore there are likely to be a much higher percentage here that have had a problem.

Of course neither I or any medical professional can guarantee that you will not be one of the unlucky ones that does have a problem but equally there can be no certainty that Urso would not also cause you some problems either.

Given the numbers problems you are having at the moment and that it would be likely that any treatment with Urso would take several months to take effect and you could still be having those problems during that time I would have thought that the operation (which of course you might have to wait for as well) would be the better course.

Again I will repeat I am not a medical professional and you have to make your own decision, hopefully guided by professionals rather than this forum, as to the right path for yourself.

id second that mate. These forums are 99% bad storys. Majority of people go on to have a better than previous life.

i get it, i was panicking about losing my GB but once its gone and your healed your right as rain. I havent had diarrhoea once since surgery but i was convinced i would having read half the stuff online. i was also convinced id be living on rabbit food with constant pain where the GB used to be waking up every night with acid reflux etc etc. nothing though mate.

But more importantly mate only you can decide. Listen to your body and do what you feel is the right path. Whatever you do i hope your symptoms ease up sooner mate

ok listen to your heart. Not us here in this forum. Feel better.

Ruq Pane........ I am writing this for the record but you will have probably already seen the medical facts re the side effects etc that some individuals do not have regarding urso and also the fact that there is no law about taking a low dose of urso to prevent stones forming again if required under medical supervision ( see data) There is no law either against having as many ultrasounds as is reasonable to monitor you gall bladder condition and also your liver function blood tests once a diagnosis has been verified.

Through speaking to several people who have had their gall bladders removed and this includes my niece who had hers out at 18. It seems clear that some of the medical profession do not take 'gall bladders' in a most serious aspect as they should do. Two people I spoke to told me that their gall bladders were on the point of bursting when they were removed.

I could 'feel' my gall bladder and had this confirmed as said earlier by an eminent doctor but not the one who gave me the script for the urso.

Is it possible to insert a letter of fact on this forum rather than the unknown quantity?

mickelmus, You may be right in regards to Urso but if so its most definitely not in the hands of ourselves as patients, Especially if our own doctors abstain from such practice.

I too had one of the most sought after surgeons in his field of expertise. Many times other surgeons and even hospital staff on day of surgery informed me i was lucky to have this guy, A guy who also works privately at a cost of thousands. A sound and intelligent man who advised me GB removal was the only way and spent considerable time explaining the minimal impact it would have on my life. I therefore trust his judgement as i expect many on here will do with their own surgeon.

Im not saying Urso is not an option but most people wont hear about that and even if they do they wont push it with their GP or surgeon. Some folk want the quick fix ie to remove the pain, the discomfort, the change of lifestyle, the lack of sleep etc etc

If a GB is susceptible to stones it will continue even after you dissolve existing stones with Urso. Its a temporary patch up at best but its not a solution. They will reoccur eventually as your already hardwired to the cause ie salts, chemical imbalances cholesterol, bilirubin, calcium, GB inefficiency etc etc

Lastly i have to disagree with the GB flush mentioned with oils etc. There is no single piece of evidence out there verifying that any mixture of oils and other fluids is at all helping remove anything from the GB. Research shows that the lumps passed through in a "GB Flush" are that of the congealed oil itself and nothing at all related to the GB. In fact research shows that the consumption of oil is most likely to bring on an attack and / or biliary colic which could put someone in hospital, Someone who is trying to stay away from hospital!!!!

Liquids and foods dont pass through the GB at all. Therefore how are they expected to "flush" something out.

Miklemus - there are several 'letters of fact' in this and other forums, including the links I posted to the NICE guidelines re gallbladder problems, their treatment and Urso. I understand your own views about Urso (though I don't think I have seen any letters of 'fact' about it - just your own personal experience). What is clear from all of the literature on the subject (and I have looked in many places other than this forum) is that the 'gold standard' for gallbladder pain and biliary colic is removal of the gallbladder.

There are other options including dietary changes (which worked for me for several decades) and possibly Urso but none of these are a permanent solution or will not require long term medication.

The principle function of the gallbladder is to concentrate (i.e. remove water from) bile. The liver will still produce bile after the gallbladder has been removed so the body can still digest fats, maybe not quite as easily as if you still had it, but for the majority of people, including the many that I have spoken to, they can return to a normal or near normal diet after the operation. There are also several people that have reported here that is the case after they have had the operation.

Again as I have previously mentioned there are life threatening conditions that can be caused by gallstones blocking the common bile/pancreatic duct. For those people that have not looked at this the pancreas feeds its digestive juices into the same duct as the gallbladder but a little further along. If that part of the duct gets blocked then the pancreatic fluid can start to eat (necrotize) your own pancreas. If not resolved quickly this will destroy your pancreas, which as a minimum will mean you become insulin dependent for life, but more seriously can cause sepsis which can result in major organ failure and death within just a few hours. Again as I previously mentioned I am aware of two personal contacts that died from this.

I was not aware of these problems and did not have the Internet to be able to research them when I had my previous attack in the mid 1980's. If I had I would probably have looked a lot closer at having my gallbladder removed then, which is what I am looking at and expecting to happen now.

ant66706 I have and still do keep an open mind about everything. I still have all my faculties at 79 but I am fully aware that I could be gone tomorrow.

It will be 5 years in July this year when I had to deal with my gall stones.

As I said earlier I felt a twinge in my gall bladder so because I have plenty of Urso I took it for a month and the twinge went away. That is about a year ago and it may well be on the cards that I should ask my GP can I have an ultrasound to check the condition of the two stones that remained after my Big 6 months course which eliminated 3 stones completely and reduced two remaining ones from 17mm to 10mm and the small one to an even smaller diameter. It may have been the smaller stone going down the ducy but I cannot prove that.

I do wish all on this forum would say what has been proven and what has not been proven.

Each individuals constitution (resistance)may be unique to themselves and that again has not been proven because it is one of the most complex issues ever It has been proven that finger prints are unique to that individual but no one knows why. As regards gall stone forming there is you will agree a multitude of reasons they can form but mostly doctors and researchers cannot pinpoint and prove why that is

No one on earth can deny that I have got rid of mine by dissolution because I have the black and white poof of that occurrence. Additionally no one can prove those stones will come back no matter how astute they are.

I must add ( again)that the lady registrar who told me that there was only one course of action to stop my misery & that was to remove my gall bladder. She was wrong and her superior proved that in black and white.

Does that not prove one must in all events keep an open but diligent mind?

I am posting this as a 2nd reply as I know replies with internet links are likely to get moderated and hence delayed in appearance.

If you do an internet search for Biliary Colic you will find many articles about the problem and its treatment. One which covers most of the things I mentioned in my previous reply about the subject, treatments (including the options if you can't have your gallbladder removed) and the fact that the gallbladder is not required for digestive health is: https://www.healthline.com/health/biliary-colic

Others about pancreatits and its critical implications include https://gi.org/topics/gallstone-pancreatitis/ and https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321804.php

I hope this helps people make a properly informed decision about their treatment.

Note I should have also posted this link about biliary colic - https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320442.php

This also covers the fact that the gallbladder is not an essential organ, that without its removal you can expect to get repeat attacks and the serious complication that can result from gallstones blocking the duct.

Note also that both the Medical News Today articles have references to the research and other sources their information is based on.

Garry... It depends on many factors but I would think 'my' top of the tree gastric surgeon would have told me if he had thought that I should know of the dire problems that can occur in some unfortunate individuals.

Some doctors tell lies & then deny they told them later. As I said I was given percentages re my age and health 'scores' when I was told a lie in that OUT

with the gall bladder is the only option. This was coupled with a percentage re age etc was not accurate anyway but that does make a person think if they are a questing soul as I am. These chance statements are an assessment in any case. I took many a chance with death when I was younger being an ex diver so I weighed up the pros and cons and decided for myself I would keep off 'the table'..........

Despite the doom and gloom merchants I still do have my functioning gall bladder and it seems to be functioning as it should.

It is entirely up to the individual person to research all that is available regarding their health issues I have seen a surgeon's article from the USA who says he wished he had known about Urso before his patients were told 'out with it'! That was before my dismal consultation with that not old registrar........ She most definitely had very much to learn as opposed to the USA doctor who wrote the urso article, who was more of a 'thinker'.

Micklemus - I have posted a couple of other replies which are waiting to be moderated due to them having internet links to the sources and research papers behind them. These all link back to my previous comments that the gallbladder is not an essential organ, that you can have perfectly good dietary health without it and the only reason to look for alternative options, such as Urso, is if there is a reason you can't have an operation (e.g. heart or other medical issues).

Though I have looked for it I have not found any research or other papers that talk about Urso being used as a primary solution to the problem and there are still the complications that can be caused by gallstones blocking the pancreatic duct.

If you can post some reputable links that support your views about Urso then please post them so we can all make a properly informed decision.

Garry10884 I have not said Urso is a primary choice but since you have suggested that I think it is a most admirable idea to become a first choice and to give gall stone sufferers a choice in that serious health issue.

Medical science never will be static and that is accepted and we should all be grateful for that fact. There are numerous clinical articles about the dissolution technique that has worked for me and no doubt many others although this has not been serenaded by a fanfare of trumpets.

I read many articles by medical professionals mainly from the USA.

We do have excellent medical professionals here as in the USA but there are many doctors who do not have a clue about many aspects of the human body and as the registrar who spoke to me have power but not a lot of kokum to drive the powerful ideas they have.

You seem to challenge me in the respect that there are not sufficient articles to be seen on the internet to fully understand the technicalities of taking urso but how come I found exactly what I needed to challenge the inexperienced registrar and obtain a letter from her tutor (surgeon) that states ursodeoxycholic acid WILL DISSOLVE GALL STONES ?

I still have that letter that any one can see if I put it on this forum. I should publicize it with the greatest of pleasure.

That letter is from one of the most eminent gastric surgeons whose name I gave to Ruq Pane in a previous post He is a very respected surgeon by all his colleagues. There are not many doctors and surgeons who exist that rethink a decision or a comment but he is not the norm because he learned

something after my successful treatment . I can only surmise the splendid words he wrote me but I can tell you they were sincere and truthful and factual.

You must be aware of the SAS quote = who dares wins! That may well apply to me but I would always say take a chance after first evaluating every mortal thing ! That is if you have the time and if you possess a quick enough whit to come out the other side unscathed.

OK - this will be my last reply until my personal treatment progress as I am spending too much time presenting factual information verses unproven conjecture.

If anyone is interested in getting more details do a search for "2016 WSES guidelines on acute calculous cholecystitis".This is an extensive paper on the subject of more than 12,000 words and includes references to over 160 sources and other research papers.

Of particular note to this this discussion is under the section Treatment: best options - Statement 2.1 There is no role for gallstones dissolution, drugs or extra-corporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) or a combination in the setting of ACC (LoE 2 GoR B)

In particular the statement "Ursodeoxycholic acid was ineffective in a large randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in patients waiting for elective cholecystectomy in the setting of biliary colic . After gallstone disappearance, the persistence of the same pathogenic factors that induced gallstone formation is primarily responsible for their recurrence after non-surgical treatments of gallstones."

As I think a lawyer might say - I rest my case.

It is not just Urso that is an option - see below. If all these medications are so ineffective, why do reports like this get written? But don't worry, I really appreciate all your responses, debate, reassurance, derision, etc. and half expect to be told medication will not be possible, and I'll just have to man up and accept my surgical fate. Maybe if I have it done, and it all goes swimmingly, I'll look back and think what an unnecessary fuss I made. But as my surgeon said, if you are one of the few % who have a complication, e.g. damage to biliary ducts during op, nicked bowel, infection, etc. it doesn't really help you.

Chenodeoxycholic acid: a review of its pharmacological properties and therapeutic use.

Iser JH, Sali A.

Abstract

Chenodeoxycholic acid (chenic acid; CDCA) is 1 of the 3 major biliary bile acids in man. When administered in pharmacological doses it causes a decrease in cholesterol saturation of bile, which in turn may lead to gradual dissolution of cholesterol gallstones. The stone dissolution rate during CDCA therapy has varied considerably from about one-third of patients overall to 80 to 90% in a highly selected group of patients. Radiolucent gallstones in a functioning gallbladder are absolute requirements. CDCA is well tolerated; diarrhoea (sometimes requiring dosage reduction) is the only frequent side effect. Although hepatotoxicity has occurred in certain animal species, and slight hypertransaminasaemia has occurred in some patients, definite liver damage has not been observed in man. CDCA is considered contraindicated in pregnancy, and in those patients with the complications from gallstones which require immediate surgery. Care should be taken in patients with liver disease. The only other proven agent for dissolving gallstones is the 7 beta-epimer of CDCA, ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA). Preliminary results show that UDCA is as effective as CDCA, but at one-half to two-thirds the dose, without causing diarrhoea. Further studies need to be done with both CDCA and UDCA to improve criteria for selection of patients most likely to respond, and to establish optimum schedules for dosage and duration of treatment.

Ruq they say that to everyone just to cover their backs. I backed out a few times and in the end asked to meet with my surgeon for a chat. I purposedly went out my way to Blackburn Hospital for a certain surgeon. (I could have paid him 5,000 at a private clinic or got him for free on NHS by visiting blackburn)

Super intelligent man and i explained to him i was anxious and constantly delaying because of likely complications. He reassured me it was super super minimal risk like 1% but they have to make you aware and offer a disclaimer.

For peace of mind i then went to visit my GP the following day to ask the same questions. I was told that many folks visit the docs for GB issues but extremely little visit post op. My doc told me most that do visit post op are not related to GB but for wound healing, bruising, etc.

Its all your decision man but keep researching until your confident your decision is the right one. Ill be honest mate i panicked right up until they put me to sleep but 4 week later, best thing ive done.

Hope you get it sorted either way mate

RuqPayne You must have noticed the obvious anti 'any other method' so 'remove it crowd' do not have gall bladder 'between them'. I wonder if that situation influences their writings somewhat ? I hope you do not relinquish your options because if one thing does not work then try another .

On the other hand some who have dissolved stones are wide open to criticism but are aware that in some instances there is no other option but to have the gall bladder removed. I wonder if anyone noticed in the article that patients were said to be 'on' the dissolution technique while waiting for removal? So if dissolution failed then 'out with it'.... seems sensible but I still cannot for the life of me understand where my gall stones have gone & yet it is said in that article that dissolution was unsuccessful? Something there does not seem right. Especially as one of the most proficient Gastric surgeons in the Country states Yes Ursodeoxycholic acid WILL DISSOLVE GALL STONES. I am confident in thinking that if it worked for me it would work for others on the proviso they are given the chance to do it and do it correctly under medical supervision.