Aquablation for BPH

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Very promising new treatment for BPH now in clinical trials (Water Study):

PROCEPT’s AquaBeam combines image guidance and robotics to deliver Aquablation, a waterjet ablation therapy that enables targeted, controlled, and heat-free removal of tissue for the treatment of lower urinary tract symptoms as a result of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).

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  • Posted

    An urologist  Stephan Madersbacher has commented on aquablation in a paper, entitled 

    "Re: WATER: A Double-blind, Randomized, Controlled Trial of Aquablation vs Transurethral Resection of the Prostate in Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia".

    This is a paper written by Peter Gilling (one of the two principal investigators of the multi-continents trial on Aquablation) and other urologists who participated in the trial reporting the results of the trial, published on Journal of Urology, May, 2017.

     Madersbacher's view of the short comings of Aquablation is given below.

    [Note: to show the important points, I capitalized some of the words and also put in quotation marks.]

    "The data are encouraging and interesting. Although aquablation allows very rapid resection of BPH tissue, HAEMOSTASIS seems to be an issue: many patients require post-interventional endoscopic coagulation (the exact number was not provided) and the risk of postoperative BLEEDING was higher than after TURP. Furthermore, the rates of postoperative DYSURIA and RETENTION were higher after aquablation, suggesting less immediate tissue removal. The 6-mo functional data, however, are excellent, with comparable outcomes for subjective and objective parameters. Of interest is the marked difference in ANEJACULATION despite similar functional outcomes, suggesting that the concept of tissue removal at the area of the verumontanum is debatable, at least in some patients. Provided that the data are durable, the main issue is the positioning of this innovative device: as it requires general or spinal anaesthesia; the main competitors are monopolar or bipolar TURP, enucleation techniques, and laser or electrocautery vaporisation. "Given the lack of obvious intraoperative or perioperative advantages and the comparable subjective and functional outcomes, the main difference is the lower rate of anejaculation", yet there are no clinically relevant advantages for any other sexual outcome parameter. A potential further advantage might be the avoidance of the TURP learning curve (particularly for larger sized prostates), although postoperative coagulation probably requires surgical expertise as well. "It remains debatable whether these few pros—given the current available armamentarium—are sufficient to convince urologists, payers, and patients". Intermediate- and long-term data are awaited with great interest." 

    • Posted

      We will have to see what happens.  Being it is map the doctor should be able to see what is going to be cut away.  Not like a Turp   If you have ever watch a Turp procedure the first thing they get rid of is the middle of the prostate where the seminal colliculus and ejaculatory ducts are.  They just go in and core out the prostate just as long as they make a tunnel.  They need to stay away from the Seminal Colliculus if they want to save the ejaculation also they need to be care full around the seminal Canal.  All this take time and most  doctor do not want to spend 2 to 3 hours on a procedure.  The main goal for the doctor is to get you to pee better.  Which is good but going to the bathroom is not the only thing we do in life.  So you have to find a doctor that care enough to help you pee better and also cares about your concerns.  I know some of you guys think I harp on retro to much but there are still a lot of men that still like having there ejaculation.  Just because we get older does not mean that we have to give it up and sit in a rocking chair.  Also you also have to remember that with ever procedure that cut away at the prostate most of the time the orgasm will be the same.  Only in a few. Doctor say that because that is what they learn in school.  All men will have a orgasm but all men do not have the same.   Doctor tell you the orgasm will be less intense. Do your research before you make that choice because it will chance your life.  God Bless  Ken  
    • Posted

      Thanks for the study!  The issue of post-operative bleeding is an issue.  I wonder if clotting and blockage may happen.  This study was not encouraging for this procedure.  Thanks again!  Cam
  • Posted

    Aquablation or water jet is the newest BPH procedure. Currently all the important information is from clinical trials. To fully understand Aqua, the best way is to read the reports of the trials published  in scientific journals.

    For those readers , who are investigating aquablation as a candidate for their BPH surgeries, I would like to share a paper, "New Technology and Techniques Aquablation of the Prostate for Symptomatic Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia: 1-Year Results" by Peter Gilling, Paul Anderson, AndrewTan, published in journal of urology in June, 2017.

    This paper describes the results for the earliest trial of aquablation and is the forerunner of the current Multicentre, multi continent trial (US, United Kingdom, Newzeland and Australia). "It was a single arm, multicenter trial at a total of 3 centers in Australia and New Zealand with 1-year followup. Participants were men 50 to 80 years old with moderate to severe lower urinary tract symptoms as determined by urodynamics. All patients underwent aquablation." The short coming of this trial is that the number of patients was only 21. But if the aquablation as a technology had a problem, it would show up in a lot of the patients.

    Why this paper is useful? (1) It explains how the aquabeam system worked, (2) explains the details of the operation, (3) shows the profile of the cut (tissue removal) in the plane both perpendicular and parallel  to the bladder neck, (4) shows pictures of the prostatic urethra before and after aquablation , and (5) show that functional outcomes at month 1 are sustained throughout month 1 to month 12. 

    The authors pointed out the problems of TURP, the gold standard: "Although it is effective, complications from TURP can be significant, including postoperative bleeding, urinary retention, urinary incontinence, erectile dysfunction and retrograde ejaculation.8, 9, 10, 11, 12" (numbers are the ref number in the original paper).  So we really want to know if aquablation is a "treatment  that preserve the effectiveness of TURP but have a more acceptable risk profile." As potential early uses of this theology, we want to know what are the RICKs.

    Right now, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have any problem accepting that Aquablation produces functional outcomes(IPSS, Qmax, PVR)  between TURP's and HoLEP's and that it preserves ejaculation with a success rate of 80-90%. What we don't know is what the complications are. So we should pay great attention to complications.

    The Goal of The Trial 

    ""The primary safety end point was the perioperative complication rate. Secondary end points included the change from baseline in I-PSS and IIEF, and the change from baseline in the peak urinary flow rate, PVR and PDet at Qmax. Other assessments included ISI (first 6 months only) and laboratory evaluation (PSA and creatinine measurements) as well as repeat cystoscopy, TRUS and urodynamic studies at 6 months........ Detrusor pressure at maximum flow was only measured at 6 months."

    Results (only a portion of the results will be given below.)

    "No adverse events occurred during the procedure. Postoperative events (those developing before day 30) were consistent with expectations for a minimally invasive transurethral procedure (table 2). Six patients (~30%) had at least 1 adverse event, including grade 1 complications (self-resolving dysuria and hematuria, and catheter reinsertion for retention) and grade 2 complications (medically treated urinary tract infections). Of the patients requiring recatheterization, each passed subsequent voiding trials with successful catheter removal. Incontinence, the need for blood transfusions or reoperations were not required."

    "At 12 months, the mean I-PSS score had improved by 16.2 points (from 22 to 6). The I-PSS QOL component improved by 3.3 points. Mean maximum urinary flow improved from 8.7 ml per second at baseline to 18.3 ml per second for an improvement of 9.7 ml per second and PVR improved from 136 to 54 ml for an improvement of 89 ml . " (I removed the p values.)

    "Table 2. Adverse events occurring within 30 days after aquablation

    Adverse Event       No. of Events

    Dysuria    1

    Hematuria    1

    Urinary retention    3

    Urinary tract infection + 30-day treatment    1

    Bladder spasm    1

    Meatal stenosis    1

    To catheter removal    1.0 ± 0.2 (1–2) days

    To hospital discharge  1.1 ± 0.5 (1–3) days"

    "The mean improvement in I-PSS after aquablation (16 points) was similar in size to that observed in randomized trials of TURP21, 22 and slightly larger than after laser vaporization (14 points),23 prostatic urethral lift (11 points),21 transurethral microwave thermotherapy and transurethral needle ablation (10 or 11 points),3 and convective water vapor energy (11 points)13 ."

    (Note that in this trial, after aquablation, a heated TURP electrode was used to cauterize the bleeding. This step is inconsistent with the so called "heartless" aquablation. In later trials, the heated TURP electrode was no longer used. As a result, anejaculation rate decreased. This proves that HEAT generated by the operation could cause more anejaculation.)

    "Decreases in sexual function, especially retrograde ejaculation, are common after TURP.25 Although the number of sexually active patients in our cohort was small, our data suggest that aquablation may not negatively affect sexual function. Improvement in intercourse satisfaction was observed, although this is but 1 component of the several IIEF-15 subdomains. It is possible that some men with BPH experience decreased sexual desire due to physical or psychological factors. It is plausible that reducing LUTS symptoms without introducing further sexual dysfunction may allow for a reversal in libido changes and an improvement in overall sexual function. "

    Impression After Reading The Paper

    I feel that GIlling must have felt that aquablation is a "treatment  that preserve the effectiveness of TURP but have a more acceptable risk profile" because he became one of the two principal investigators of two muti continent muti center trials and have a financial relation with the aquabeam company.

    We shall see if the above results still hold in the later better designed and larger trials.

    • Posted

      @dl: HoLEP's and that it preserves ejaculation with a success rate of 80-90%.

      -----------

      That's not the number I come up with. If you refer to the Phase 3 trial data, if I remember correctly, you will find (quite buried btw) that retro from aquablation is around 1/3 of standard TURP. Standard TURP retro is around 90% so that puts retro with aquablation around 30%. I think part of the problem is that they only cite retro from standard turp around 40-50% which is wrong. My hunch is that their post op questionaire was lacking. Neverthless, let's see how it plays out in real world data over the next year, but personally I wouldn't have aquablation now if it's important that you have under 20% chance of retro.

      Jim

    • Posted

      Correction: Phase 3 trial data puts Aquablation retro at 25% of TURP. So assuming 90% retro with TURP that means 22.5% of Aquablation patients might expect retro. This is an extrapolation of an extrapolation but arguably more accurate than the 10-20% figure bandied around. Also, this was a trial where participants were cherry picked and where doctors I assumed received the best training. Lets see how it plays out in the real world.

      Jim

      Jim

    • Posted

      It is 10% RE for aquablation! See below.

      I had a post in this forum, "Retrograde Ejaculation or Ejaculation Preservation after Urolift....", which discussed the science behind EJaculation Preservation, If u are interested. 

      GreenLight Laser had also achieved 10% RE using the EP technique. 10% RE is the same rate as aquablation. If u look at the cut profile of aquablation mentioned in my post, u will see how the aquablation cut avoids the verumontanum in a gradual way, then u won't be surprised by the 10% RE. The reason GLL could achieve 10% RE is because the  vaporization of tissues could be controlled rather precisely to avoid these tissues responsible for ejaculation.  Likewise, bladder neck incision could also achieved 10-20% RE because the only cut is from the bladder neck to the verumontanum.

      I could not answer if it is science, why RE is not 0%. Perhaps, heat has to do with it, perhaps the region of tissues which are responsible for ejaculation is not the same among the population, .....I just don't have an answer. But I have little doubt that aquablation claim of 10% RE is credible because the EP technique has been studied by many studies and proven it works.

      PD64-01 THE WATER STUDY CLINICAL RESULTS – A PHASE III BLINDED RANDOMIZED TRIAL OF AQUABLATION VS. TURP WITH BLINDED OUTCOME ASSESSMENT FOR MODERATE-TO-SEVERE LUTS IN MEN WITH BPH

      Peter Gilling, Claus Roehrborn

      ......

      The difference in primary endpoint safety rate was driven mainly by retrograde ejaculation. 

      Persistent retrograde ejaculation in the first 6 months occurred in 10% of Aquablation subjects and 38% of TURP subjects. 

      .........

      This is the abstract of GIlling's presentation. 

    • Posted

      Again, if you read carefully Gilling's presentation you will find that Aquablation has 25% the incidence of retro than TURP. We know that TURP has around 90% retrro so 25% of 90 equals 22.5% retro with Aquablation. So why the discrpency between 25% and 10% both which can be dervied from Gilling's data? My hunch is that they didn't do a very good follow up with patients. My argument is based on the fact that the TURP group reported under 50% retro. So unless they have a revolutionary way of doing TURP something is wrong with the numbers which leads to false retro rates. Let's see how it works out in the real world.

      Jim

    • Posted

      Low risk of retrograde ejaculation is one the most important features of aquablation. Thus it worth our times to clarify what the percentage actually is.  My understanding is that the RE is about 10%.

      The likely explanation for your discrepancy is that TURP's RE is not 90% is more like 40-60% often quoted in literature. With ur 25% rate, it would translate into 10-15% for aquablation. This range is consistent with Peter Gilling statements.

      The reason is that  the ejaculation preservation technique can be applied to TURP as well. In fact, there have been studies which  did just that.

      My understanding is that TURP starts from the verumontanum and works towards the bladder neck. So it depends on how careful the surgeon is around the verumontanum. 

      if u are interested, in YouTube search box search for P0yPaLx8rM8. This is a bladder neck incision study. Check out the RE rate at the end of the video. It is 20%. The EP technique preserves more tissue than this technique that is the incision would stop about 1cm before the verumontanum.

      not sure if u accept my explanation.

    • Posted

      Good afternoon guys....I have been reading all the reports on the trails from all the doctors on Aquablation there even was a study done on 8 male dogs.  The study has been going on from 2015 and will not end till 2020.   What I came out of with this most of the doctor do not mention anything about sexual function or retro.  All they say is that it is safe and a novel technique for getting rid of BPH problems.  Only a couple of the doctor come up with There are no new cases of erectile or ejaculatory issues.  What were the ones that had and how many????.  Now I watched the video that they give you.  It seam like once they stay the procedure it does not stop until it destroys the mapped out prostate .  They get rid of everything.  Now being that they say they are saving the the ejaculatory ducts and the Seminal Colliculus  How do you know they are not going to damage that in any way once the machine starts .  Also being they will be getting rid of all the rest of the prostate they will be getting rid of the seminal canal where 70 % of the ejaculation comes from.  They are not saying anything about volume.  The only fluid you will have will be made by what is left of your prostate.  The prostate make up 30 % of the fluid when it is in the normal size.  What will you get why it is half or a 1/3 normal size.  The doctor that you guys are talking about I saw where he said that Aquablation is 10 % retro to Turp 36 %.  In reality we know this is wrong because this one study was done on under 100 men. And you know when you read or talk to a doctor about Turp they tell you that retro is a given that you are going to get retro.  They give maybe 3% because it is  rare not to have it after they cut out everything.  Now I know they are trying to help us to come up with a better way of doing thing but the trails are going to have to do better and explain more of what is being taking care of.  In all the papers I have read there is nothing that would make me run out and have this done.  Only time will tell.  I have written to the company and I hope they do a good job in the next 2 years.  Remember this is my opinion   Take care  Ken
    • Posted

      Ken,

      i urge u to read this paper:

      New Technology and Techniques Aquablation of the Prostate for Symptomatic Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia: 1-Year Results by GIlling.

      In one of the pictures, it showed the countour of the cut. From this picture u could see how the verumontanum was carefully avoided. A picture worth a thousand word.

      Do u believe the results from clinical trials?  These results are the best to learn about the successes or failures of a new technology.

      i think the problem could be very few users has access to urology journals.

      I have access because I had gone to a library which has a medical school and ask the librarian to give me a temporary pass, so I could report to everyone  what is the latest news about results from clinical trials or multi center studies.

      Or u have a better way?

    • Posted

      Thank you DL  I will see if I can find it.  But I have read the 10 trail from all the doctor from 2015 to now they have two years to go.  There are a lot of pros and cons.   They tell you some things and then avoid others.  I am waiting to get a answer back from the company because after watching the procedure I would like to know if the machine can be stopped if they see it doing something that it is not suppose to do.  Also what scares me with them getting rid of post of the prostate.  What about the nerve bundles that are attach.  Are they only getting rid of the inside of the prostate and leaving the shell.  And with them getting rid of the prostate they are getting rid of the seminal canal which you get 70 % of your ejaculation.  You will be left with 30% if it is a normal size prostate but it's not.  What is the volume of the ejaculation left.  I may be nic picking but I want to know.  It is may body and my function  Ken  

    • Posted

      Good afternoon guy's.  I just got a e-mail from a Miss Anderson who is the communication Manager for BioRobolics.  She said that she is not qualified to answer the medical question.  But she did say that the procedure can be stopped at any time if there is a problem. Which I all ready new from the text DL sent be about the foot pedal.  She is going to send me the e-mail for Dr. Hirsch so he can answer my other question.  Take care  Ken  

    • Posted

      I doubted dr Hirsh will reply. If he does, other good questions would be

      1) how does the machine calibrate the force of the water jet? That is how does the surgeon know the water jet will cut according to the profile generated? If the force is wrong, it may cut thru the capsule. I assume there is a water pressure  somewhere. What if the meter is out of calibration?

      2) does dr. Hirsh use heated or heartless haemostasis?

      3) is the hospital stay 1.4 day and catheter time 1 day as in the WATER trial?

    • Posted

      I don't know if he will I could not find a e-mail for him or for Jersey Urology and the girl did not have one.  If I have to I will send a letter to him.  I did send a e-mail through at company in NZ for Dr. Gilling to see if he would answer my guestions.  I did add the first one I asked what was the force of the jet  I did watch a few more videos that I found looking for the e-mail.  They showed  ere the Veru was but to me they got rid of to much of the prostate.  Everything was taking out and they did show a wide tunnel.  My fear is that they are destroying the connection of the seminal canal and the Veru.  Even if you save the ejaculation you will not have much.  Maybe a few drops.  That concerns me  Ken  I will keep the other question in mind.  I think it will be up to the doctor 1 to 2 days  Ken  

    • Posted

      Hey Dl  Just got a e-mail from the hospital that Dr Gilling is at.  It was forward to her She could not tell me anything about anything the only thing she said was the same thing we here from the doctor.  All prostate surgery can cause sexual problems.  She also said that if I wanted to make a appointment either on the phone or come and see him I could but I my expense.  Will we not get any answers from him.  I can say something but I wont  Ken  

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