Bisoporol for svt

It's hard when a doc gives you only a few minutes and won't answer your questions.

I tried to learn basics about a disease and drugs for that disease on internet and tried to read experiences from other people. Then I would write 3-4-5 most important questions on a paper and I would ask a doc only those most imporatant things when I would come to his office, and he wouldn't lose too much time.

Like, for your case:

1. doc, can I take some other BB because this one is killing me due to fatigue and I breathe too slow all the time?

2. if BBs don't suit me, can I take Calcium channel blockers in the future?

3. are there any other options besides BBs and CCBs? If yes, which one?

4. is there an option to live without drugs?

5. ablation, chances for a success or making it even worse etc?

From my experience, if docs see that you don't have a clue about your disease and drugs, they will just say: take this drug, you will be fine, come back in 2 Months and it will be the end of a discussion.

But if you say: doc, this drug don't suit me (side effects), I have learned that I could try some other BB or maybe some CCB, what do you think?

Well then, he will at least give you answers like: I think that you should take only Biso because it is the strongest, or I think that CCB are not good enough for your case because of this or that.

But, you will at least get some answers and explanations for your specific case.

The last time when I was at one of my docs, I asked: doc, I will now quit BBs, but please tell me, if I will need some medicine in the future, are there some other options besides BBs, because I tried 4 different BBs and none of them suit me, I would like to try something different in the future (if needed).

He told me: if you will have new episodes, come here and I will give you Calcium channel blockers then. They are weaker in controlling heart rate than BBs, but maybe they will work good enough in your case. It is worth to try.

So, you see, CCBs are 100% an option for Spvt (my doc confirmed), even though, they are weaker than BBs.

Plus, they have totally different mechanisms of action and different side effects.

While all BBs block the adrenaline and have simialr effects on our body and quite similar side effects.

Anyway, in the future, try to prepare 2-3-4 key questions for your doc and show him that you learned some basics about a disease and drugs, and ask for some explanations and options about drugs and treatment.

Luckily, my docs told me that I can live without drugs.

But if I'll have to go back on drugs one day, there are a few different options.

Bisoprolol was the worst for me: feeling ill (flu like), breathing problems, strange heart rhytms, strange feeling around a heart (as if it is tired and can't beat and if I'll make any move, it feels as if my heart will stop or something). Plus, on some days I couldn't walk more than a few steps, as if someone pulled a handbrake inside of me and I couldn't walk, I had to sit/lay down the whole day.

Nebivolol was much better and I didn't feel ill and I could walk much more than on Bisoprolol, but on Nebivolol I was feeling dizzy all day long. So, this time I didn't feel ill all the time, but I was dizzy...

But I felt less bad on Nebivolol...

I asked my doc about other options for the future, he said that if I can't tolerate BBs, that I can try Calcium channel blocker Verapamil for slowing down a heart rate and arrhytmias.

It seems that for majority of docs Beta Blockers is the best drug for any heart related problem and they will give BBs whenever possible as the first option.

You can read around the internet on medical sites about options for each disease.

For example, this is a classical answer for Supraventricular tachycardia (Called Spvt or Svt):

Long-term use of an antiarrhythmic medicine may also be needed to reduce the chance of having more episodes of supraventricular tachycardia or to reduce the heart rate during these episodes. Common medicines used for this purpose include:

1. Beta-blockers.

2. Calcium channel blockers.

3. Digoxin.

4. Other antiarrhythmic medicines.

So, since some people can't tolerate Beta blockers, please, for the future, ask your doc about these other options like Verapamil (Calcium blocker), Digoxin, or some other possible drugs.

For example, if you'll switch between Beta blockers (like Atenolol, Bisoprolol, Nebivolol), the difference will be small, since they are all 80-90% the same drug with only minor differences.

But if you'll switch to a Calcium blocker or Digoxin, that is a totally different drug, with totally different mechanisms and side effects (compared to BBs).

I haven't tried those other drugs, but I guess that a difference in side effects between BBs and them could be like night and day.

So, ask your doc for opinion about other possible drugs.

And then inform yourself on internet about pros and cons of each drug.

Calcium blockers are also used a lot and it is a very common drug, for arrhytmias and lowering blood pressure.

About lowering a dose to 0,62Mg or lower.

I was taking 1,25 Mg of Biso and felt ill and had breathing problems.

I lowered a dose to 0,62: the same side effects.

I lowered it even to 0,30 Mg (one quarter): the same

Ok, side effects were slightly milder. But still, instead of having breathing problems 12 hours per day, now I had them for 3-4 hours per day.

So, it was better, but at least in my case, if you can't tolerate some drug, the strongets side effect will be there even on lower doses.

With Nebivolol, I had dizziness, cold hands, nightmares etc.

When I lowered a dose to 0,62 and 0,30, i didn't have cold hands and nightmares anymore, but dizziness was still here.

When I weaned off from Nebivolol, the dizziness disappeared only when I dropped to around of 0,10 Mg.

But that is a too low dose to prevent arrhytmias.

So, from my experience with these 2 Beta blockers, some milder side effects will be gone if you lower a dose, but those strongest side effects will stay both at 1/2 and 1/4 of a dose.

But, you can try it by yourself for a few days, maybe your body will be different since each of us is different.

Good luck

Yeah I have read a lot of information, a lot of coming from your many posts on this forum, you a great help to many so thanks for that.

Regarding the flu symptom, I feel like I have sinusitis, without the snot and mucus,it normally entails, just feel blocked up.

I understand what I could take alternatively, ccb's make the most sense to me, since the aim is to lower the heart rate, and beta blockers do several things that I don't need doing. So I will ask about them when I go see him.

As for the reduced dose or complete stop I am torn on which to do, I don't know whether to just go at it and hope I feel okay and my svts stay away, or reduce the tablet and see if I feel less effects, and if they still work, as a man in my position before, what do you recommend Bob?

Thanks for your reply

Just seen your second reply, I think that I will try halfing the dose, and see if it helps me with some of the effects, give it a few days and see if I improve.

Really is a strong drug, except for the one I'm allergic to (penicillin), I've never had side effects to other drugs.

Thanks for your help, I'll post again and let you know how I get on

How about Sotalol, I've been changed from Biso to that. Calcium antagonist or something ....?  

I really don't know.. the gp and cardiologist seem to say my side effects are all possible and can be expected, but seem to question the severity.

My gp didn't really know about svt, he's a fairly young man, maybe not too older than me, but he seems keen to listen and learn, but will not change my medication due to my cardiologist.. and he is impossible to get in touch with, I get put threw to a nurse who seem to act more as a complaints helpline for the cardiologists, and they again understand my side effects but don't believe me when I explain how much they are taking out of me, and they can't prescribe drugs.

So as it stands my choice are carry on( not happening) reduce my dose, or stop all together.

Maybe reduce, stopping is a bit too sudden.  I agree GPs don't listen regarding side effects, my GP poo pooed the idea that I'd put on nearly a stone in weight on Biso, despite him telling me previously to lose weight, being 9 and a half stone.  Since switching Biso I've been able to get back to original weight.  Some of these meds are positively lethal!  All the best with your decision, when do,you see cardiologist again? 

When I have my ablation I suspect, it was an in and out see you in 3 months sort of meeting, didn't really tell me anything, I'd be lost without this forum ha

Can you get a second opinion?

I don't know in which country do you live, it is different in each country.

In some countries you can get an opinion of a 2nd cardiologist or some similar doctor. Or you can visit a private doctor (I don't know how expensive that is in your country).

About the ablation, once you do it, there is no way back.

I don't mean to scare you, but things can also go wrong there and some people have more arhytmias after an ablation than before the ablation.

So, if possible, can you get a 2nd opinion somewhere about your heart problems, about other drugs, about other solutions regarding a drug and a 2nd opinion about an ablation.

Some docs told me: you don't need drugs, some said you need drugs for all your life, one doc said you will maybe need an ablation if you can't handle drugs.

One doc asked me: who on Earth gave you Bisoprolol, it is too strong for you and it isn't too good for people who have low or normal BP since it can lower your BP by too much.

Currently I am not taking any drugs and I didn't go to an ablation.

I want to say, docs in some cases have totally different opinions on one patient.

So, if possible, it would be good if you could hear an opinion about your disease and your heart from one more doctor.

 

I am going to try to get my gp to take control of any further medication.

As for the ablation I'm still months away so I have time to try and find out how bad my svt is, with or without medication, the two big episodes I had viral infections for both, and I believe this to be a factor, so I will try and see how frequent they are when I feel healthy, and also maybe try alternative less side effect ridden medication and then make a decision.

I do recall several times It happening prior to the first big one, I just never knew what was going on and I out it down to just feeling tired on the days, I also got them a lot at the end of exercise( I used to long distance run, prior to a back problem) when my heart rate was coming down but they were controllable terminating after 5 mins just using breathing techniques.

As it currently stands I havent had the opportunity or knowledge to stop the big ones, but when they come around I now know what techniques I can try, so hopefully they will be manageable.

Im a yorkshireman btw

You are describing exactly how i feel going on these february 4th, i keep hoping my body will get used to them. I feel lethargic and dizzy, my heartbeat is 50 and my blood pressure is 112 over 59, i feel like a sick invalid, i don,t feel the thumps and my heart beating strongly.   Which would be the better of the 2 evils!   it is difficult to decide.

Sorry, I haven't seen it earlier.

Sotalol is Beta blocker plus antiarrhytmic. 2 drugs in one.

I felt the same on Bisoprolol.

Strangely, on Nebivolol (a different Beta Blocker), I didn't feel as bad (as sick) but I had dizziness all day long, so it was bad again in a different way.

About Bisoprolol, even on 1,25 and 0,60 Mg, I felt:

1. tired

2. sick (as if I have flu for 1 year all day long)

3. I wanted to sleep all day long

4. it was hard to walk or do any activity. Your heart would beat too slow, and if you tried to do anything, you had a feeling as if your heart will just stop or something. Something just felt "wrong" all the time with too slow and too weak heart

On some days, I would go out and try to walk, but I would have to stop after 2-3 minutes and I would be dead tired and i would need to sit down somewhere (and before taking drugs, I could have walked 45-60 minutes without any problems)

5. heart was beating too slow, but extremely strong in some moments

6. blood pressure was too low, mine dropped to 90-100 all the time

7. also, a strange thing, I would feel good for 2-3 days (I could walk and do normal things) and then for 2-3 days I would feel as if I have 100 years. Then 2 good days again, then 2-3 horrible days, interchanging all the time

8. plus breathing problems. I had a feeling as if my brain is not sending signals to my lungs to breathe. all day long I had to "tell" to my lungs: breathe, please! Why are you not breathing?

As if a drug is causing some kind of anesthesia for brain and it is not sending signals to lungs to breathe fast and strong like they usually do.

Thanks for your reply, sounds very much like what i feel at the present time.   Is this living a life, it feels awful, i have had this svt for many years but lately it has got much worse, the thumps and strange feelings are intense, i had already been to my doctor the week before my big attack happened and he gave me a letter to take to the hospital to have a 24 hour monitor fitted, i had already had one of these 2 years ago,svt and palpitations were recorded then, i was given verapamil but stopped taking it thinking i could put up with them.   I live outside London, our health service is under great pressure, i absolutely dread being sick, the last time  i went to our accident and emergency i was there 5 hours back in 2015, now it could be up to 12 hours.



About Svt, I have a same arrhytmia as you, but luckily, short episodes which stop on their own (for now).

I was taking Bisoprolol for one year and I felt very bad on them.

Later I switched to Nebivolol (Bystolic), also a Beta blocker but a newest one.

I didn't feel ill on it, I wasn't that tired, I could walk again and live a semi normal life, I wasn't that tired.

But, Nebivolol in my case caused dizziness which lasted all day long and very cold hands (but cold hands is a minor problem).

But again, I still felt way better with dizziness than feeling very bad on Bisoprolol.

I still had some breathing problems (too slow breathing all day long).

But if I would have to take it again, I would rather take Nebivolol, my body liked it better.

So, maybe you can ask for a different Beta blocker, maybe you will have less side effects on some other BB.

Also, you have already tried Verapamil (Calcium blocker). Did you have bad side effects on it or was it okay?

My doc told me if I will feel bad in the future, and if I am not feeling well on Beta Blockers (Bisoprolol, Atenolol, Metoprolol, Nebivolol) that he will prescribe me Verapamil for Svt (Spvt) and arrhytmias.

It also protects against arrhytmias and has different side effects so maybe it will suit me better.

So, instead of Bisoprolol, you have at least 2 other options: Nebivolol/Bystolic (the newest Beta blocker out there) and Verapamil (Calcium Blocker).

Also, there are probably other antyarhitmic drugs which you can try in the future.

It has been said on other topics, some people don't have any problems with Beta blockers, while some have horrible side effects, as you can see in your case.

Maybe you should try something else if Bisoprolol is making you feel really bad.

Hi Bob,   i cut the bisoprolol in half so i wouldn,t feel so awful, i was lulled into a comfort zone becuse i didn,t feel so bad but this morning as i was doing my house chores i felt dizzy then the thumps in my chest started, now i feel despondant and took a whole one with my breakfast.   I,m trying to carry on until i can see the heart specialist in 5 weeks because i have no confidence in my doctor.   It is a relief to talk with someone who experiences the same thing as normal people do not understand. i live alone but am used to coping on my own.

 

Ann, I was taking Bisoprolol 1,25 Mg for one year and then decided to wean off and quit after I talked to my doc.

In around 2-3 Months I lowered my dose from 1,25 to 0,90Mg, then 0,60, then 0,40 and 0,30 Mg. Then I stopped taking it after 0,30 Mg dose.

I felt horrible and I didn't make it.

I had Svt prior to taking drugs and when I stopped taking Bisoprolol, I developed a new arrhytmia called sinus tachycardia, which is a normal, regular rhytm, but way too fast.

My resting HR was around 70-75 prior to Beta blockers.

During Beta Blockers it dropped to 55.

And since a resting Hr was 55 for 1 year and I wasn't able to walk at all on BBs, probably my heart got weak during that year.

When I stopped taking them, it was a shock to my heart which was totally deconditioned and my resting HR jumped to around 100 all day long for 2-3 weeks. If I tried to walk, my HR would jump to 120-130 after a few seconds and I couldn't breathe at all (I was feeling as if I was running a marathon).

One day I had to do some physical work at home during a withdrawal and my HR jumped to 160 after that work and it didn't want to go down.

So, your heart beats at 160 per minute and if doesn't want to go down to a regular level (60-80 beats per minute).

I drove myself to ER and they had to give me a few drugs to calm down my heart rate and they told me that I need to go back on Beta blockers.

A doc told me that a part of heart muscle can die if you have such a fast heart rate for too long (for exmple a few hours). 

You see, I never had that sinus tachycardia in my life, I started to have those attacks only during a withdrawal.

I went back to BBs (Nebivolol this time) and after a few Months I decided to wean off again, but this time I will go slow and it took me around 8 Months this time to drop slowly to 0 Mg. Even when I was going very slow, I was experiencing sinus tachycardia attacks, but this time I knew that it is a withdrawal so I made it through somehow, but it was tough and it lasted very long.

So, from my experience, when you lowered a dose in half, if you felt your original disease (Svt), then you need a full dose, you can't go lower.

It was a breakthrough original arrhytmia.

But if you felt some different (new) type of arrhytmia, like a regular rhytm but way too fast and you felt nervous, then that is probably a withdrawal and sadly you will experience these attacks a lot during a withdrawal.

(Too fast heart rate and lots of anxiety and feeling nervous since Beta blockers block the adrenaline in your body and when you quit or lower the dose, you body can't handle the adrenaline anymore and your body and brains are too excited all day long from all this adrenaline, and then you will get too high heart rate since your receptors are exposed to a huge amounts of adrenaline now. Also, you will be quite anxious and scared until your brain relearns how to cope with too much adrenaline)

When you go to a doc, they will usually say: oh, you felt bad? Then you need medicines again.

If you ask them how did you develop a new type of arrhytmia on these drugs, they will say that it is anxiety or your original disease.

They will rarely say that a drug caused a new arrhytmia.

Majority of people don't have any problems with Beta blockers, but as you see, some people do have horrible side effects and when you try to lower the dose, a lot of people are experiencing a hell. Plus, docs won't believe you and your family also won't understand and people around you can't relate at all about what you are talking about.

When I came to this and similar internet forums during a withdrawal, I was happy that I have found people who are experiencing the same.

A few times I started to believe that my family and a doc are right and that is all in my head, and that I just have to go out and do some physical activity during a withdrwal, so I went out and tried some physical activity (fast walking and similar) during a withdrawal and then I ended at ER.

This is why my opinion is: 

1. listen to docs

2. also listen to your body, since only you know how you feel currently

3. also listen to people who have been through the same situation

So, about your problem, whenever I have lowered my dose, I would have a few days or weeks of elevated heart rate all day long, and if you tried to do any activity, your HR would jump to 130-140 after 1 minute of wlaking or any simple house work.

Dizziness, nausea, random pain in body, muscles, lungs are also quite often.

If your doc tells you: this is anyxiety, don't accept that.

Tell him that you don't like this drug plus that you have a hard time weaning off of them.

If you will get another Beta blocker or some other antiarrhytmic drug like Calcium blocker and similar, then quitting BBs is easier since a new drug will calm down your heart and it will be less painful.

I started with palpitations when i was 28, i  was living in Malta  at the time and went to my doctor because i didn,t feel right, he sent me to the hospital straight away  to do an ecg on my heart which showed missed heartbeats, from then on i brought up a family and worked until i retired all the time thinking it was anxiety, i learnt to live with it. The doctors didn,t seem worried about it every time i complained, it has affected my life but life is for living and i got on with it.   Over time i paid more attention to it especially when i developed the racing heart, i still didn,t pay a lot of attention and thought it was just the way i am, i,ve had a lot of minor attacks which calmed down except for this last one which resulted in me ending up in hospital and having it put back to normal with drugs.  My son who is an intelligent young man has the same problem, he is young yet so accepts it like i did. I read that it is inherited, unfortunately i don,t know my fathers side of the family,its not on my mothers side.  Thanks for response, i appreciate it.  It consoles me that i,m not the only one going through this.