finally saw rheumy; felt snarky, then puzzled

Posted , 7 users are following.

HI you all, I finally saw a rheumy and wondered if I should have warned her that I have a very good memory and am quite good with numbers before we talked.  More details below. But then I became puzzled, so I am glad I didn't challenge her but merely listened.

      She had an extremely narrow definition of what a PMR diagnosis needed.  I remembered how often you guys complain about your rheumies, and wondered why they dislike that diagnosis so much. 

         She mentioned a study done there where people were asked to choose between living 10 years longer in pain, or just 1 year longer without pain.  She said 80% of the subjects in the study chose the 10 years in pain.  I immediately chose the 1 year! Then she talked about "the awful side effects" of  prednisone.  Could that be why rheumies don't like the diagnosis?  The thought that most people, apparently, would rather live longer with pain?

       Many so called "side effects" of pharmaceuticals are really due to the disease or other confounding factors, not the medicine.   For example, cataract occurrence is largely age related, so to say that prednisone causes cataracts may be the result of a very poor study that did not adjust for age. As any epidemiologist will tell you, there are lots of crummy studies out there!

         In my case prednisone had absolutely nothing to do with my cataracts, they developed long before.   And it has nothing to do with my bruising as she thought: I have had blue spots caused by enthusiastic dog toenails for 20 years, long before any other problems. 

     In her narrow definition of PMR, she seemed to think one needs a sed rate in the 80s at least (mine was 37).  So my statistical mind asks whether that too is a false correlation. Surely, since there is no definitive test, it is just a matter of opinion. She also noted that I described pain and tenderness rather than stiffness, and thought I should have described stiffness.  There's a difference?? And I had butt pain rather than the hip pain she thought I would need.  So she was not convinced of the diagnosis despite my "dramatic response" to prednisone.  She said nothing about what else it might be.  So maybe that is the big question we have to ask: if it's not PMR, what could it be.  Fortunately she was not opposed to my continuing on prednisone, though she wants to get me off it in the long run.  That is a reasonable.  

         Then I remember she said PMR occurs equally in men and women, but of course it doesn't.  Women get it twice or 3 times as often.   Also the rate of PMR is increasing in Britain.  So my hypothesis is that they have stopped giving women HRT and that is causing the increase.  Both sexes lose hormones with age, but women lose hormones earlier.  So this might well account for gender differences as well as the late age of onset of PMR.   

     Rheumies have a lot more training in the subject that I do, at least I hope they do, and I would really like to understand their opinions more than I do.  Too often interesting scientific papers are not available without an expensive subscription to the specific journal, or a trip to the nearest medical library.

5 likes, 23 replies

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  • Posted

    I would humbly suggest she doesn't have a clue!

    There is a study that shows that having babies is protective for GCA - having 3 pregnancies reduces your risk for developing GCA by one third, more pregnancies by a half, so there is something with hormones that makes a difference. One in 5 patients with PMR never have abnormal acute phase reactants (same applies for GCA). 

    The point about pain and tenderness (which is one of the signs btw) as opposed to stiffness is one that has caused great discussion in the international research group of which I am part who are defining symptomatic in PMR. Rheumies are now getting the point that the difference is so blurred you can't say one or the other half the time. And it isn't "morning stiffness" any more than it is "morning sickness" in pregnancy - it happens all day for some people. And the butt pain is just that the inflammation is in a slightly different palce - PMR doesn't usually adher to rules and regulations, even if she would like it to. 

    About the only sensible and accurate thing she said/did was leave you on pred and tell you to get off it eventually. Now it is up to you and your GP. Who I hope is a bit brighter than her!

  • Posted

    It shocks the system when the rheumatologist tells you (or me) something we absolutely know is incorrect. We trust them, but.....................

    I am only about to see a rheumatologist this afternoon, for the second time, having seen him last week on an initial visit. (I was careful not to share with him what my primary physician calls prednisone, namely, POISON.)

    Somehow I preceive that primary physicians and rheumatologists, the specialists, do not communicate enough with one another. Actually, nobody referred me to a rheumy--with all the pain I was having, I just decided I had to see one. 

    Now it happens that he has me taking 20 mg. in four pills of 5 mg. each, and people on this and other web sites say that is wrong--that I should be swallowing the entire 20 mg. at one time, for best results. So: frustration! Am I supposed to tell this alleged expert that his advice is incorrect? 

    I have a hunch this could become an ongoing problem. 

    Also, I noticed something unusual in the rheumy waiting room last week. There were around 10 or 15 patients there, waiting (it's a huge practice) and many of them wore the saddest, unhappiest expressions on their faces. I tried to smile here and there, but most of the time, the poor patient didn't care to smile back. Overall, they just looked miserable.

    Has anyone else noticed this in the waiting room? It felt more like a waiting DOOM, to look at the people! 

    • Posted

      Aren't all doctors waiting rooms like that?  I don't think it is the illnesses - I think it is the WAITING!!!
    • Posted

      Don't tell him how you take your pred - just find out what works best for you. The forum has given you the tools. 

      I don't care that pred is poison - it poisons PMR too and used carefully and well it is fine for most patients. I had a year of awfullness when I was on Medrol - ordinary prednisolone and prednisone have been fine. Other people have no problem with Medrol. Since stopping medrol I have lost the 37lbs in weight Medrol had added despite still being on prednisone.

      However - poison or PMR is no comparison. I had 5 years of PMR and it didn't burn out and go away and I was never out of pain. Most of the 5 years with pred have been far better, the problems came from something associated with but not directly PMR and I know better now.

      Just convince him your response is most likely due to the pred and work from there!

    • Posted

      I take a book...

      Our waits at the GP are because we have no appointments, you turn up and takes your luck. But most people are friendly enough and will chat. I never had to wait at the rheumy here - fairly civilised. But people here do seem to be less miserable. Their mantra when asked how they are is "Ich bin zufreiden" - "I'm satisfied..." Which I love :-)

    • Posted

      Eileen,

      He (the rheumy) is the one who told me to take 5 mg. four times a day, not all at once. That's the problem..................

      As for the waiting room here (near Wash., D.C.), no one wants to chat, obviously, and there is almost nothing to read. All I know is that an employee told me "it's the biggest practice in eastern United States."

      (Whatever, I think.........)

    • Posted

      Isn't it? But that is really why we live here and not in NRW!! Or even Bayern...

      You walk through the village and EVERYONE (except tourists) says good morning/afternoon/Gruess Gott (God's greetings). Even teenagers on their way to ice hockey ...

    • Posted

      Whatever - definitely! Too big to care maybe?

      I said a book - my Kindle actually but half the time I don't get to read it. 

    • Posted

      HI Barbara,

      I am near DC, also, in Northern Virginia. Different rheumy, I think, though.

      or the dose of 20 mgs, she told me to split into 10 in the morning and 10 at night. this was when I was first diagnosed. Once I was down to 15 mg (about 3-4 weeks later), she told me to take the the 15 mgs all at once, in the morning after I have eaten breakfast. It worked for me. Am now on 7.5, temporarily (5 days) on 15 mgs, 10 mg for a few and back to 7.5 mg as I have had a virus for 3 weeks and now an ear infection. So also on antibiotics

  • Posted

    Eileen, Do tell us what is btw?  what are abnormal acute phase reactants?
    • Posted

      Sorry - too much Facebook...

      btw: by the way...

      The acute phase reactants are the ESR/sed rate and CRP tests, the indicators of acute inflammation which are raised in 80% of PMR/GCA patients - or to look at it another way: normal in 20% of them.  

  • Posted

    I am quite lucky my Rheumatoligist is very goosd she does want me offthe Pred but so do I but I have learnt over the 14 years I have had it dont fight it go along with it when it dies down enjoy no pred but first pain and I am back on it, I have had a very bad year  as I have a Hernia I am waiting for an Op have been in and out of Hospital being sick so PMR flared up so been on 25mg then coming down to 5 then back up to 15. they would like it if I was off it before the Op . I have been trying  got down to 7mg this week but this morning pain really bad again so back to 10 and pain gone within three hours so 10 it will be for a couple weeks before I come down again, I was off Pred for about 2 years when I had a very bad reaction to penicillin although I had always taken it fine. Then had flare up sinse been back on Pred.
  • Posted

    Your experience sounds very similar to mine. I had to change rheumatologists before I got an answer to the question - so if you don't think it's PMR what DO you think it is?

    In my case the answer was - possibly sero negative inflammatory arthritis. But I would still like more evidence before going down the methotrexate route.

    I am on 3.5 mg pred and have had no pain/stiffness for several months. I put this down at first to steroid injections in my knees - but I would have expected that to have worn off by now. Interestingly though I was prescribed oestrogen pessaries by my GP about six weeks ago because I had bad cystitis. And I wonder if these, though a fraction of the dose you'd take orally, have affected the PMR/arthritis/whatever... It has always been my guy feeling that hormones play a part.

    • Posted

      Gosh, Dinah, what a siege you've been under. Glad you're not having PMR pain, though-- 

      Hoping everything gets better--Barbara

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