Going with Focal Laser Ablation for BPH

Hi Martin,

Doesn't sound like you're very symptomatic, so wondering why surgery now? Do you know your retention via office bladder scan? Did your doc give you your IPSS score? If not, you can google it online and take the test in under five minutes. 

As to night time voiding (nocturia), a lot of people don't realize that it often has nothing to do with the prostate, and if that's the case any type of prostate surgery won't make a difference. A simple 24 hour void log (ideally with fluid intake as well) plus your PVR number (residual) should give you an answer to that pre-surgery. 

I'll let Motoman speak for himself, but as of two weeks ago, I wouldn't say Jim81578's procedure was successful. My take is that we've had around 7 very good results, a couple of marginal results and one not very good result. This isn't too much different from the results of other procedures although the one thing I like about FLA so far is no sexual side effects such as retro ejaculation. 

Full disclosure, I'm a watch n' wait guy, and don't like any of the current procedures at this time, unless you absolutely need something done. An alternative to Rapaflo is 5mg Daily Cialis, that won't give you retro and works as well, if not better, in many cases. 

Jim

 

Best of luck, Martin!

(When you get a chance, please keep us informed of your success/results/progress)

Good luck Martin and thank you for the kind words. If you need anything with regard to support or questions please feel free to ask and I am sure all will share experience. The Personal message method in this site works well for that purpose. You are very correct about Dr. K and you will really be impressed with impress with the knowledge and support by of Donnie Sartin. RN 

John

Jim: I think you under estimate my knowledge of the situation. I am very familiar with problems of the prostate having had the GAT procedure 6 years ago. For this period of time, the size of the prostate stayed the same and recently began to enlarge. Dr. Gat was not aware that a large median lobe would not shrink during embolization of the ISV's. For me, the PVR is not a very accurate metric of urine retention in the bladder, as their has been a great variance from one period to the next. My urologist believed that a "15 minute turp of excess tissue near the bladder neck" would solve the problem. To me it is barbaric. I am extremely healthy, with a good sex life,  and do not wish retrograde ejaculation which occurs upwards of 90% of the time. And what does the NHS say about retrograde. "It's caused by damage to the nerves or muscles surrounding the neck of the bladder, which is the point where the urethra connects to the bladder." TURP is not a solution. My brother in his words "has been consigned to a diaper from this operation. We all take risks in our lives. It's all about choices and weighing the odds. To me, 24 hour catheterization would be like living in hell. When I finally started to feel some pain and pressure upon urination, I knew it was time to rectify the situation. I have been following the Inspire site on focal laser ablation for cancer for years. I was educated enough to know what to do and when learning the inspiring story of Jj12080, I decided it was time to act. Dr. Karmanian seems to be the right man for the right job. Proud to be part of this group of pioneers.

@martin victor: I think you under estimate my knowledge of the situation.

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Hi Martin,

You're new here, so better to err on the side of caution when advising someone, plus please remember that these posts are read by many others who may be making similar decisions and they may not be as knowledgeable as you. 

Like yourself, I would not have a procedure done that risks retro and FLA so far seems a safe bet in that regard. My point was different, ie that given what I surmised might be "mild" symptoms per IPSS scoring, was ANY procedure really necessary now? 

But we're all grown men here, and everyone pulls the trigger at different points, but my thoughts to others in your position is that any surgery is a major undertaking with certain risks, and should be viewed more as a last resort than a pre-emptive strike which seems like what you're doing. Especially since newer procedures are on the horizon and new data from FLA should be available within a year from Dr. K's study. I do understand your pioneering spirit, so this message is for others. 

Good luck.

Jim

 

By the way Jim. I tried 5 mg of Cialis. And yes, I was the one in a thousand that may have had a "4 hour erection." I guess my equipment is working well, but it was no fun. You mentioned 7 very good results from this procedure and 2 marginal. I think you are discounting the number. First, I would like to mention that on the Inspire Site on prostate cancer, there is a very intelligent member called Jallen22. His first post on the subject of BPH and FLA starts at June 23, 2017 and ends July 25, 2017. His procedure was mid December 2016 and his story is truly remarkable. Very much like our own J12080. At night he would be up 8 to 12x. His production of urine was 75 to 100cc. During the day, incontinent up to three times. Embarasingly peeing in his pants during business meetings. Nine years of suffering. Today his stream is like in his 40's. He sleeps most of the night. Urination volume 400 ml. His doctor was Dr. K. 

I can't imagine a "wait and see" approach being good for your bladder with constant catheterization. But, to "each his own."

 

Curious about that 4 hour erection! Did you need medical intervention, and if so, how does that work? 

As to "wait and see" aka watchful waiting, it would only require catheterization if you had significant retention which was compromising either the bladder itself or the kidneys. This isn't always the case and that is where the "watchful" part comes in, it's not just "wating". 

But since you brought up catheterization, that was my solution, ie CIC. Three years ago I was in worse shape than the fellow "Jalen" you mentioned, and today, after rehabbing my bladder with CIC,  I'm pretty sure I could hold my own with him on IPSS scores. No surgeries and no drugs. Like you say, "each his own"

Jim

Jim

Regarding the 4 hour erection. The power of the mind can over come what happens physically ...so there was no problem...besides a cold shower would also do the trick. So no medical intervention was necessary.  Regarding the newness of Focal Laser Ablation. The first post on this subject from one very brave soul who had it done was in 2013 on the Inspire site.  He had FLA to remove a cancerous lesion. There are many others like him since who have seen much success for cancer. Much has been learned including the necessity of making larger ablative margins to make sure all the cancer is removed. The procedure is really not much different than for what a doctor would do to remove excess tissue for BPH. I would not recommend anyone doing FLA without doing their research. Personally, I prefer holistic medicine to solve medical problems. I pursued an MS degree in biochemistry and nutrition years ago...but my business interrupted  my plans. My wife was a nutritionist with a certified degree from a major university. But no amount of saw palmetto or nettle root or other herbs worked. Basically, I think Dr. Gat of Gat-Goren fame in Israel has a conceivable solution. Failed valves on the Inter Spermatic Veins bathe the prostate with high levels of DHT which acts as an inflammatory agent and cause prostatic growth. The embolization of these veins (varicocelles) seems to stop the process of growth for two of the three lobes of the prostate but not necessarily the central lobe. I have communicated with several who like myself  have had this procedure. Some have seen reduction of up 50%. Dr. Gat like Dr. Karamanian is an engineer and a medical doctor. Dr. Goren is a Harvard graduate and interventional radiologist who probably was the one who did this procedure on the Prime Minister of Israel for BPH.

Martin, 

I’m willing to bet J12080 and jallen22 from that other site are the same ”John”, that is why the stories sound the same. 

That being said, I am sure there are a lot more cases of people having FLA done than what we are seeing on this site. Many people won’t post on a forum, and maybe don’t even know it exists.

Good luck with the procedure.

Because you've probably read only a couple of my posts, I don't want you to think I am anti FLA for BPH. Conceptually, I like it over the other current offerings because of both its precision and so far lack of sexual side effects.

That said, I think it important that people look beyond a few very well written, as as you say, "inspirational" testimonials, which by the way you will find on just about ANY procedure (including TURP) if you take the time and read the various threads. You will find the words, "life changing" in all of them, although maybe not written as well and as persuasively as John is able to do. 

Still, surgery is surgery, and in this case it's 20k-30K out of pocket, with very little data, especially in terms of how long the procedure will last, which is even more of an issue because the procedure is so precise. 

I hope Dr. K. publishes his trial data soon so we will all have more information to make an informed choice, and I wish those early adopters the best luck in the meantime. 

Other than that, the main point I try and make about FLA for BPH -- or any procedure for that matter -- is it's not just the procedure, but the pre-existing condition of the bladder that will determine success or failure, or somewhere inbetween. I therefore urge anyone prior to any of these procedures to have full testing, including urodyamic (preferably video urodyanmics) testing to gauge the functionality of the bladder before dealing with the obstruction. To my knowledge, Dr. K. does not insist on this, but he is far from alone, as many urologists do not either. 

Jim

Yes i agree. I just stubbled across this site when I was looking at procedures for bph . I must say this site and many folks in here helped alot.

Ok, Ok my confession to ALL.

You guys caught me! I confess, it is me!   I did cheat on you and go to another thread, but it had nothing to do with you guys as much as it was the horrendous rules and moderation that goes on for this UK owned site. They finally at least got some form of a spell checking program. So I give credit for that. The Inspire site has a lot more information sharing but I still gravitate back to this site so I am communicating some on both. Though not lately on the Inspire side as I don't have the time. 

And yes the stories between the two sites match mainly because it is the only story I have. Martin blew my cover but that is ok because I am fine with it. And I wish him good luck and will supply any and all support he may feel he needs as he pursues the FLA procedure and has his recovery. 

@ quote from Martin "Failed valves on the Inter Spermatic Veins bathe the prostate with high levels of DHT which acts as an inflammatory agent and cause prostatic growth. The embolization of these veins (varicocelles) seems to stop the process of growth for two of the three lobes of the prostate but not necessarily the central lobe.        "I have communicated with several who like myself  have had this procedure".

Martin, did I mis-understand or DID you have the Gat Goren procedure?  

I know our buddy to this site. Neil, who several of you may remember dropped this site for a while and he is busy pursing the GG procedure in Toronto now. He is scheduled for later this month. And he will be the first. He is a brave man with a plan. 

Neil cannot find a Uro or IR who will participate in the GAT procedure in the US and not use the metal coil method. The success that GG has had demands the soft plug method and no coils So Neil has stayed with it and he is going for it in Toronto. I try to stay in touch with him to follow his progress. He is really a great guy and he did have Dr. K do a Focal Laser Biopsy on a lesion looking spot. It was not PCa and he continued his studies and pursuit of the GAT procedure in this hemisphere because he believes that GAT is the possible cure for his prostate growth. He needs the GAT for varicocele anyway so he wants to see if that affects the BPH. If not he will regroup and pursue the next step. He has done a tremendous amount of research which I really respect. 

Martin in comment to the 4 hour erection, I too have an issue with that though not four hours worth. But I can't take that 5 ml Calais. I cut mine into three pieces and use it that way a third of 5 ml as a dose. It  Still gives me a historical erection but not to the time frame and concern  you mentioned. I don't use it every night. Maybe once a week until it is gone. I got a Rx for it during my procedure and it is not used up yet. When it is gone I am done with it.

And in response to my friend JimJames, I unlike many men, never was on any of those drugs at all that you mentioned. The urologists tried for 10 years to get me to take them but I don't do any drugs. My cardiologist wanted me to take a statin but I lowered my cholesterol to 118 from 280 with the WFPB (whole food plant based diet) three year ago.  BPH drugs were never part of my story as the side effect read bad.  

I also will say I concur with Martin on the fact that thousands of men have done the FLA for cancer and many of the notice the BPH symptom reduction. That is why this whole movement to offer it for BPH started. The procedure is no different that is why I have kept trying to make the point that this is not as experimental procedure as some have tried to contend. The same FDA statements apply to FLA for PCa as do FLA for BPH. The insurance issue is something totally different and is hard to get coverage for either PCa or FLA. Though I will say Medicare did finally pay for some of mine. 

JimJames is right we all get to "pick our own poison". Since there is no cure for BPH we all deal with the fact that the gland will continue to grow. So we are all brothers in the same boat on this deal. We share, we communicate, we respect and we deal with BPH all together on this web site. Wether we pick the same relief path is not the concern. This is not  a competition  it's a search for symptom relief, at least for now. There is not right or wrong there is just degrees of results. I hope we all get the results we need no matter how we describe it to one another. But I still stand now one year later after FLA declaring my relief to be "live changing" at least for me in my life and hoping and praying it lasts a lifetime. But I am still watching and waiting for a cure. That is why I have my eyes trained on my friend Neil who is on his mission.

Yep it was me.

JOHN

"..willing to bet J12080 and jallen22 from that other site are the same ”John"...

Good job, Sherlock ! 😇 Hank

I have never been to the other site. Looks like you have to register to even view it. I don’t need to be viewing 2 BPH sites, so I will just linger here, and hope I don’t need any more advice!

You are not missing anything. That site is predominantly for PCs. We need you here. Hank

John: Sorry I blew your cover. But very thankful for your detailed experience.

To clarify, I had the Gat Goren procedure about 5-6 years ago. The cost at that time was $17,000. Dr. Gat was a brave man. It was his theory on the cause of BPH. Well, he became his own guinea pig and reduced his prostate size from 80 grams to 40. A number of patients I communicated with had similar good results...but a few including myself with a large median lobe did not get good results although the prostate did not really get much larger. Mine grew from 50 grams to 54 (as of a year ago)  but it wasn't only until recently that I felt increasing pressure upon urinating. When I tried Rapaflow (like Flomax) about a month ago, I was shocked to see the difference in the ease of the flow and realized for the first time I needed treatment before I would have bladder problems. Dr. K feels the Gat protocol is weak in its theory in that many people who do have varicocele problems do not experience BPH. Dr. Sperling has suggested that having the Gat procedure may prevent one from getting prostate cancer as excess DHT does not back flow into the prostate when the ISV's are embolized. There are 3 alternative veins that naturally take the place of the Internal Spermatic Veins (ISV's) to bring testosterone into the blood stream from the testicles. It seems obvious that BPH is a result of a hormonal imbalance. High estradiol and high DHT. Hormone balancing might help, but some have a predisposition (like cholesterol) to high levels of DHT. I often wondered whether  median lobe enlargement was also a result of excess stimulation of the prostate. Chinese medicine knows a lot more about health than what Doctors practice here in the U.S. with their large assortment of drugs which treat symptoms and not the cause of the ailment.

I do have a question for the board. There has been reference to the "reshaping process of the prostate" after convalescence..  My biggest shock was learning that my 50+ gram prostate would have 30-50% of excess tissue removed. I was relieved to hear that this might not result in less of a "forceful" ejaculation but the level of semen might be reduced...even though most resides in the seminal vesicle. . Since the natural size of the prostate of a 20-30 year old is around 25 grams, is this excess tissue viable....is it really necessary....and how physiologically does a prostate re-shape itself to  its natural form. Any comments on this?

I have read from a few of the procedure like fla. They take part of the prostate away they put holes in it with time the prostate come back together smaller. But not touching the good stuff. Ken

Good for you Martin. You did your homework. You know what you want. You have money to spend. You could not pick a better procedure than FLA, or a better doctor than Dr K, or a better support person than John (aka jallen22) 😁 . Best wishes to you. Hank

@John: I also will say I concur with Martin on the fact that thousands of men have done the FLA for cancer... that is why I have kept trying to make the point that this is not as experimental procedure as some have tried to contend. The same FDA statements apply to FLA for PCa as do FLA for BPH.

--------------------

I agree that the procedure itself is not new, however FLA for BPH is experimental by definition since there is no peer reviewed trial data on results. "Experimental" is not a dirty word as some make it out to be when I use it linked to FLA for BPH, but it is what it is, and for those researching it out, it's an important piece of information. For those that are comfortable with FLA for BPH without any published peer review trial data on results, I wish them well, I just want to make sure that those newer to the subject understand the so far lack of trial data. 

Changing the subject , I am very impressed by your massive cholesterol reduction after changing to a WFPB diet. Maybe you could elaborate just a little . Is it vegan 100%? Is it low fat and if so, how low? Any nuts? Added oils like olive oil? What was your diet before?

Personally, I have tried many diets to get my cholesterol down.The only thing that works is low protein, and very low fat (fat calories less than 10% of total calories). Even if I go vegan, my cholesterol will still be high unless I keep to the low fat which means no nuts, no oils, avodados , etc.

Diets that would conform to this are the original Pritikin diet (not the modern version) and the Esselystyn diet.

Jim

Yes Jim, you smoked it out once again.

I am a patient and now friends with Dr. Caldwell and Ann Esselstyn the doctor who proved that heart disease is primarily a food born illness and completely reversible. I feel he saved my life and he definitely kept me from a four way open heart bypass Almost 4 years ago.

Here at home, The cardiologist who did the stents on George W. Bush's heart Dr. Brown the founder of Baylor Heart Hospital was my Cardiologist and  wanted to do a major by pass on me. I said no and as you know I am obsessed with questioning the system, I started the research to find out what else would work.

I went to L.A. New York, Virginia, Tech, Ohio, Minnesota and visited with the top Cardiologist and Doctors  in the nation. All of these doctors know the truth about S.A.D. (the standard American Diet) Dr. Esselstyn proved it and documented it all over 12 years of hard solid research and what I like about his research is there are Pictures of the reversals!!

I started by reading his book and saw the prove in the documented pictures and then I went to him for a 6 hour meeting where he really goes through the whole story in detail at Cleveland Clinic in Ohio. This is a meeting is done with up to six couples. Then a 90 minute one on one with each patient to review all labs and test results.

What is the diet? No processed foods. No oils as all oils are also processed. That's how they get the oils, processing, just eat the whole food.  I am Limited on nuts. No Dairy, No animal protein, no meat not even fish. (Read the book The China Study or the latest and the best book "Whole" both by Dr. T. Collin Campbell?

I eat Dark Green Leafy vegetables. I only eat things that are not processed. Yes this is an adjustment but the alternative was a bypass that was only a band aid. Not a cure and this is a cure. It works fast. Within a month all angina pains had stopped. My wind was back and breathing normally with exertion in 3 months. Before, I was eating this way I could not walk up the stairs without needing to sit down. I had a heavy blockage. Coronary Angiogram showed two major blockages and one partial blockage.

I also get a lot of really good prepared meals from a web site called "Plant Pure Nation" you may want to look it up. It is very good and designed for this life style by Dr. Nelson Campbell.

The Whole Food Plant Based diet is really not a diet it is a life style and it not only promotes health it stops and reverse cardiovascular directed heart disease and it prevents the other top four killing condition of the nation. Before you start doubting this, read the science. It is out there and it makes a tremendous difference. The diseases that other countries do not deal with on our volumes. Cancer, Alzheimer, Diabetes, and Obesity are the other four major food born killer of America. Heart disease alone was 630,000 plus deaths last year. A side note, Not all doctor know about this as they get absolutely NO nutritional training or education in our university programs. They only know what they are taught.

The sad but interest side note is that as of today, the current sitting President of the American Heart Association,  Doctor and Cardiology specialist, John Warner, is currently resting comfortable this afternoon in UT Southwestern Hospital here in Dallas because 4 days ago he had a major heart attack caused by Coronary Blockage. Yet Dr. Warner has in his position continually, professed the AHA heart healthy diet which I promise you  will kill you. Dr. Esselstyn has these other cardiologist visit him all the time, usually when they have developed blockages themselves.

There is lots of prove and data out there now. But Jim, You are not going to get your blind test studies done on this other than the one Cleveland Clinic did for 12 year and Esselstyn led that one.

Why? Because the information would completely destroy the entire economy.

Heart disease treatment alone last year in the U.S. was more than $500 billion dollars. Think about that number? And, that does not include pharma, or USDA and the current food industry or agricultures industry.  

There are youtube sessions, websites and other information on all the medical professionals and the data facts I would be happy to share if anyone who wants this and they can Personal Message me and I will provide the information on any of this.

I do not advocate or have this as a cause because trying to change a persons eating habits and tastes is as touchy as trying to change some ones sexual  habits. Best to stay out of those issues.

 

Jim I just tried to answer your question and got moderated and I did not use any sites of any thing else. Sorry. This is what I was saying about this site. I will try again later. This is why I went to inspire site.

john

You are also not allowed to quote anything that may be copy write.

Hi John,

Not to worry. I'm sure it will come out of moderation in a day or so. Sometimes if you mention several names, or put things in quotation marks, or other things that should seem innocent; the pre-programmed algorithm thinks something is amok and puts the post on hold until a human looks at it. AI still has a long ways to go. 

Jim

Do you mean algorithm or Alan the moderator has a long way to go.

LOL. "AI"=Artificial Intelligence per algorithm.

Jim

Well my doctor is coming to see me in the morning. Been drinking so much my stomach hurt. Still red. In bag. Im just going to tell him to take the catheter out and let me go home. If i can't pee i will deal with it. I've had it. Ken 

Ken,

I understand exactly how you feel but you probably want to make sure you can void by yourself before going home without a catheter or you will just have to come back. Hopefully you will be able void, but if not, I'd consider the suprapubic option again since you've been having problems with the catheters. We are all here hoping you will find out what's causing your problems and get well soon. 

Jim

I should be there near the same time as you. I am getting another opinion about a spot on the MRI to see if we need a biopsy before we can procede with the FLA. Best of luck with your procedure, looking forward to hearing about your experience.

Rick

Jusr got the bag emptyed still red. I should me clear. This has never happen before. I hope things get better this is the pits. Thank you. Ken 

Hi John,

I figured it had to be Esselstyn, or similar, given the cholesterol reduction you got. Unfortunately, I was not able to get my LDL below 80 on the same diet a few years back. Had I been able to, I think that would have been enough motivation to keep going, but being unable to reach my target numbers I lost motivation, because as you know, this is not an easy diet to follow.

That said, still haven't given up on my quest for a workable non-statin diet solution for what might be termed my metabolic syndrome, but right now it's back to the statins. The only time I got the kind of numbers you're getting was when I was on the original Pritikin diet 40 years ago.

For those that don't know, Nathan Pritikin was the modern pioneer of low fat, lower protein diets, plant-based on research of the eating habits of so-called "primitive" populations of northern Mexico and the the Papua Highlanders of New Guinea.

Outside of not being able to reach my target numbers, one of the problems I had was with the food preparation. If I didn't put the time in, the food became uneatable. If I put the time in, I was married to the kitchen!

I did find one food delivery service, similar to Plant Pure Nation, and while they did follow the Essenstyn formula, in the end the recipes were too much soy based for me, and again, I couldn't get the right cholesterol numbers which is my bottom line. Theory is fine, but the blood labs don't lie.

I went to the Plant Pure web site but a random sampling of recipes showed fat calories much higher than 10% of total calories, which I believe is what Essenstyn bases his diet on, and certainly Pritkin does. For example, the Creamy Garden Alfredo has 9g of fat in a 250 calorie serving, which means 32% fat. I've been on similar vegetarian diets before, but unless I can keep my total fat calories below 10% of total calories, my cholesterol numbers just aren't good enough. The diet on that site, appears to conform closer to the "Engine2 Diet" by Essenstyn's son, which is a significantly more liberal version of his plaque reduction diet. It sounds like you may be one of the lucky ones that can eat more fats on a plant based diet (you mentioned "some nuts" and still get good numbers. Unfortunately, I'm not that lucky.

Jim

Don't know how the "smiley face" got inserted in the post. Nothing funny about "nuts" and wish I could eat them and still keep my cholesterol down!

Hi John, I am glad your diet works for you. However, several of my immediate family are vegetarians and have high cholesterol levels, and are on statins. The other non vegetarians are fine. Seems like cholesterol levels are not elevated by foods eaten.  

When I tried vegetarian diet, I was hungry all the time. Decided it wasn't worth it. 

 Hank

Hi Hank,

The Essenstyn diet John refers to is very low fat as is the original Prititkin diet and is the stricter version or Ornish. Vegetarian diets on the whole, however, can be low, moderate, or even high in fat. Depending on how your body reacts to dietary fat will in large part determine your cholesterol. Protein and carbs also play into the equation, again depending on how your individual body metabolizes things. An extreme example would be a vegetarian who eats a lot of french fries. But even nots and the so-called "healthy" oils like olive oil, have a lot of fat. Neither are permitted on a strict form of Esselstyn, or the old Pritikin diet for that matter. All said, I still believe eating vegetarian is probably the healthiest for many of us.  That said by someone who has had two burgers recently!

Jim

 

Hi John,

Correction:

It may not have been "soy" that was featured in the frozen food plan I tried, maybe too many bean based recipes. I'll have to check. In any event, even though vegetarian, it was higher in protein than I would have liked in terms of lowering cholesterol, and that might have been the problem. I will take another look at the Pure Food site and see if I can find lower fat items because my eating these days is less than ideal! Unfortunately, cholesterol wise, I have to follow a very low fat diet to the letter. No cheating at all. If I cheat just a little, my numbers show it. And by cheating I don't mean Prime Ribs, I mean just a little olive oil or a few nuts. 

Jim

Jim, hmmm, my family vegetarians don't eat French fries. Since you talked burgers, I just had a Reuben sandwich from Subway SW. Corned beef +  Swiss  cheese + sauerkraut + lots of vegetables. Yummy ! I can't go back to vegetarianism. Hank

Reuben trumps even burgers!!! I only wish I could eat like that but it would put my cholesterol through the roof. Vegetarian dishes don't have to be tasteless, however, very low fat vegetarian dishes are more difficult in that regard, and require real culinary talent to make palatable. But as to the "fries" thing, I was just using an extreme example. However, if you look at the menu of most vegetarian restaurants you will see some very high fat entrees because they use as lot of oils and nuts, not to mention a lot of sodium, which also doesn't work for me. 

Jim

Thank you Jim.  This week sucks.  Have to wait till Monday to take the catheter out  I hope it goes well  Ken

Hope it all works out Monday. Let us know. 

Jim

So do I.  Just work up to change the bag.  Very dark red cooper color not like it was when I left  I will see what it is later  Ken

Hi Jim, 

Sorry I fell off the scene for a couple of days I played in a tournament the last day we corresponded and I was tied up but I did not play well enough to make the cut to the weekend sessions so I am out and came back home. 

Yes, I wish everyone would read Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. It is a very good book on the 12 years of hard fact research conducted at Cleveland Clinic. It would at least explain to people what and why or health in America is in such decline. We spend more each year on Heart and Cancer research and yet it is obvious that the numbers just keep going high in incident rates. Instead of inventing another bandaid to sell, we need to answer the question of WHY. The doctors I mentioned especially Esselstyn and Campbell have done exactly that and it is free to anyone. 

I understand you feeling on LDL and I also could not get my LDL down. It is down some now and still dropping as I finally excepted the fact that there is only one way for people like you and me to get that LDL down.

My doctor has preach the fact to me but I hate it so bad that I complete resisted and tried to do it with diet only. That worked for everything except for LDL ratio. The one and only thing that works to reduce the LDL when you get to our point in the fight is Weight Bearing Exercise and I don't mean twice a week. Four times a week minimum is what we need and I just despise it!!  But it works. That regiment of weight training exercises  along with the rule of 10% or less fat calories, no oils, will absolutely work on the LDL. I just hate it!!   But my 85 year old DAD does in since his heart value replacement and he has been getting tremendous results.  

I was really hoping and tried to sell the doctor on the fact that four days a week of golf would do the same thing and my wife said I was only fooling myself and if I was going to live without the wonderful Standard American Diet I have loved all my whole life, then it was stupid of me to not do the final ingredient for success in my battle.   I have the same issue with LDL as you and I finally gave in. Sure enough, it works just as the Doctor said it would. 

On the Plant Pure Nation meals, I will point out that each meal preparation is two severing per meal. So consider that when reading the information on the back of the box. It is design for consumption by two people though I can and have eaten the entire content of the meal as they are very good.  My wife is now Sheriff over the meals and makes sure I just get half. She is German and that should tell you everything. 

In closing, I thought the smiley face was most appropriate. And you should have a limited amount of nuts from time to time, Key word being limited. Like I have a few walnuts on my oatmeal each morning. But Limited.

John

 

Jim, we have Fries in my diet but NO OIL involved. We cut them up and put them on a cookie sheet in the oven at 400 degrees until golden brown. I like them with the peal left on. Then the issue becomes the Catsup becomes the issue. My wife makes it with out sugar. Its good but I miss the real Catsup. The fries are as good or better than the real fried ones. Also an Air Frying machine works but still NO OIL> 

I have a air fryer and most of my stuff in it but i try to stay away from potatoes can't have anything with acid either.  My urologist gave me a 8 page diet it that i try to fellow. Take care. Ken. Ps doing better then yesterday. Still pain but urine is a better color

yes hank, heredity is a big factor in Cholesterol. My wife has had it her whole life. She is barely 5 feet tall and weighs maybe a 100 pounds and always has. Her Cholesterol was very high in the 300 range and stains got her cholesterol was down to 260 with the statins but that was it. Her doctor told her then that some people just have to live with high Cholesterol levels.  She works out 6 days a week to try to beat it but it did not help. She was healthy with high cholesterol. Now being on the WFPB diet for three years her Cholesterol is 138 and she has not had stains for two years. 

We are all different. She could not get anything to help her with hers but some how this did and it was documented in the book we read before she went on this life style. She is the key to my success as I will cheat if I don't have her cooking for me. She does a lot of cooking. And those Plant Pure Nation meals help us out a lot too. 

John

Great improvement is improvement and we take it anyway we can get it. Good luck and keep the good reports coming. 

@John: The one and only thing that works to reduce the LDL when you get to our point in the fight is Weight Bearing Exercise and I don't mean twice a week.

--------------------

Hi John,

I'm a little confused on your numbers, and I think you might be mixing "LDL" with the HDL/LDL ratio, whereas weight bearing exercises have been shown to increase HDL, but should have little effect on LDL.

Also, FWIW Nathan Pritikin made a very convincing argument in the 70's that if you were able to get your Total Cholesterol (TC) low enough (I forgot the exact number) then HDL wasn't important and therefore the HDL/LDL ratio wasnt important. He came to this conclusion by studying field blood tests of New Guinea tribes whose populations had zero heart disease. What he found was not only very low TC and LDL, but also very low HDLs. So the conclusion is that while a high HDL is helpful for those with higher TCs, it isn't necessary for those with lower TCs. This is not to say that your weight bearing exercises aren't good, and I'm sure they will boost your HDL, but as long as you can keep your TC and LDL low, they probably aren't necessary for heart helth. 

I'm a big numbers guy with this, so if you have them handy, I would be curious what numbers were pre-diet and right now. 

Namely: 1) Total Cholesterol (TC); 2) LDL; 3)HDL; 4)Triglycerides

Thanks.

Jim

 

Ken, don't be so active with a Foley. That tends to cause more bleeding from internal scratching, scraping, etc. Hank

Hi John,

I used to do that as well, but time consuming. Can I borrow your wife

So a question -- how much of your meals does your wife make versus how much do you order from PlantPure?

I ask because I spent some time on their web site yesterday, and found that the average fat content of their meals is closer to 30% and not the 10% or under that Essenlstyn advocates. And this has nothing to do with the "2 portion" servings you spoke about, because the percentage of fat calories does not vary regardless of portion.

For example, take the New England Plant Chowder from PlantPure with 160 calories per serving and 5grams of fat per serving. So you multiply 5 x 9 (9 is the amount of calories in a fat gram) and you get 45 fat calories in a serving. Then you divide 45 by 160 (total calories per serving) and you get 28% fat, meaning that 28% of your total serving calories are fat calories.

Personally, I've tried 30% fat diets and I just can't get my Total Cholesterol or LDL low enough. I have to go to 10% or less. However, the numbers don't lie, so if in your case you're getting your numbers down with PlantPure's 30% fat entrees, that's the important thing.

Jim

Thank you John.  I hope all goes well on Monday.   Cholesterol works different on everyone.  Mine has always been good even when I was 325 pounds.   Now that I'm 180 it only change a few numbers.  I don't eat the way I did.  When my kids were growing up if they did not finish there plates I would so I would eat 4 plates.  When I got married I was only 220 with in 10 years I was over 300  That is when my heart problem started and some other problem.  Even being 180 I still have problem but not as bad.  But has we get older other problem come up.  Good health to all  Ken.   

You make some good points. Some people are blessed with heredity and can have low cholesterol dining at MacDonalds.  Some, can see significant improvements in cholesterol just by losing weight (regardless of diet) and some the weight makes no difference. And others, and I include myself here, are very sensitive to diet composition, regardless of my weight. The only two diets I have been able to get decent numbers on are an under 10% fat, high carb diet like Essensltyn or Pritkin, or irronically Phase I of the South Beach Diet which has higher fat but very carb restricted. Unfortunately, Phase I of South Beach is not sustainable (too few calories) per the author of the diet.

Jim

thank you Hank.  Laying down most of the time. If I move to much having bladder spasms.  They suck  Ken

Jim I will ask my wife to get it out and I will let you k

Thanks John, Would love to see your before and after numbers, as well as your wife's.

BTW I'm in no way putting down the Plant Pure Program, as even at 30% fat, it's far healthier than what 99% of Americans eat, and I include myself in that group! It's just that a 30% fat diet will not get my numbers to where they are needed. On the other hand, if it gets your numbers down, that's wonderful! BTW how much weight did you lose on the diet? With some people, losing weight in and of itself, will drive down total cholesterol. Alas, I'm not one of those either!

Jim

, I will get my wife to find the paperwork and I will let you know what the numbers are when we get them put together thanks

Thanks! Thinking of trying the Plant Pure Program, regardless of fat content, since it has to be an improvement over what I'm eating right now!  However, I have noticed that the Plant Pure Entrees only have 250 calories per serving. Do you find one serving adequate, or do you generally eat two servings per meal? I'm figuring I need around 2000 calories a day to maintain weight at 165 pounds. 

Jim

I just called by doctor to see what he want be to do the blood did not clear and in alot of pain  about 150cc of dark fluid out from this morning  Ken

From afar, I can only take guesses, but given the recent trauma from your multiple catheterizations, tissue might have been damage and therefore the blood. Hopefully, the catheter comes out on Monday and you will be able to void. If not, I'd think twice about going back on the Foley and ask (or demand) a suprapubic catheter. Sounds like your urethra and/or prostate might need a rest from all that tubing. 

Jim

Thank you Jim.  I don't know whats wrong not peeing at all  I have been drinking bottles of water and not getting anything out.  Never had this problem before.  I called my doctor just waiting  Ken

I can and do eat the whole prepared meal but that is when I am active all day. Check the fat content on each as they have 20 different meals and they have ingredients for meal prep if you want to do your on. Also 

Publics Food Chain just picked them up in their stores. They do have be sample plans you can try. They have a free newsletter which they will sent you Monthly if you sign up. We just use these to add to my wife's full time food prep. She started with 150 recipes in the back of Esselstyns book. His wife Ann also put out a full cook book and they are great receipts.