Has anyone transitioned from Methimazole to Bugleweed? How did you do it?

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25 March 2016

Dear all,

Greetings from Bangkok. Not native to Thailand. Temporarily resident. Will try to be polite about my foster country but will likely falter every now and then. 

My knowledge has jumped in a few days since joining this Forum and through one member in particular linda187 who has been just superb, kind, patient at explaining her protocol with regular carnitine then l-acetyl carnitine. I was praying for an enlightened endocrinologist to materialise but none has so far. Instead I got linda187 which is better than I could have imagined. She's a gift. I hugely resonated with her message about self-empowerment and being proactive.

I've been on Methimazole 15 mg/day since 6 February 2016. Dosage upped to 20 mg/day since 16 March 2016. Feeling some side effects: Alarming hair loss, muscle weakness (legs, arms, hands), blurry vision, never feeling rested, some insomnia, worsening memory.

If I had met Linda last week I may have gone with l-acetyl arnitine before the herbals. I'm going to start on the Bugleweed, Motherwort, Melissa and Hawthorn. After reading what Linda wrote cautioning against combining l-acetyl carnitine with Bugleweed, I will take that advice.

I'm seeing a new Endo today to request for more comprehensive tests: TSI, TSII and TgAb. Thyroperoxidase antibody (anti-TPO), TSH, Free T3 and Free T4 were the extent of thyroid tests that a private lab I went did.

Will post my labs after.

Since it's unlikely that the new Endo will be open to discussing herbals, I have to guess my way through this. Not sure how to wean off the Methimazole and how quickly. I hope to get tested every 4 weeks.

Please share your experience.

 

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  • Posted

    Thailand I think they used a lot of Iodized salt in there food.  Maybe your methimazole not working you because of food intake... When I first diagnosed i cleaned up my food intake... No iodized salt, i bring my own sea salt there are some iodized in it but really low....less fish also... 
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    • Posted

      Hypnocool, thanks for the heads up. It hadn’t occurred to me. Tunnel vision. I’m reducing the amount of fish I eat but that means becoming vegetarian as I can’t eat other meat. Fermented fish sauce and shrimp paste are pretty ubiquitous as well. 
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  • Posted

    When I added first the Regular L-Carnitine and my thyroid levels showed a slight change for the better and I had to decrease my Methimazole, initially my doc told me to drop my 10 mg dosage by 5 mg but I found a rebound effect when I did that so found out I had to decrease by 2.5 mg at a time as my values improved dramatically.  I would also take Vitamin D, 1,000 IU and Magnesium 200 mg along with the rest of your natural protocol.  Then when your values improve your doc will want to decrease the Methimazole.  So you are going to need very regular testing of your TSH, FT3 and FT4 in order to stay on top of this.
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    • Posted

      Linda, thank you again. When you say “rebound”, did you experience anything physically?

      How long were you on 7.5mg, then 5mg, then 2.5mg?

      Do you just cut the pills with a knife?

      Noted on magnesium. Oral magnesium hasn't arrived but I spray myself with magnesium oil when I remember and take a Vitamin B6 with it. I take 5,000 IU Vitamin D.

      The new Endo dropped me to 15mg/day on Friday. Just like that. It’s been two days of 15 mg. I’m not sure I feel comfortable. I’m noticing my heart as the feeling is bordering on uncomfortable. Pulse is under 100. I started on 30 drops Motherwort and Hawthorn ½ tsp 3 times/day two days ago for heart palpitations and just added back 10mg/day Inderal. I went a day without Inderal on the Mothewort and Hawthorn.

      I’m not telling the Endo I will be starting on the Bugleweed as she actually couldn’t hear me when I asked I needed more frequent blood testing because it didn’t fit into her paradigm or reality. She couldn’t hear me.  Interesting phenomenon, eh? I’ll just have to get them done at a private lab. It’s easier. Hope to surprise her with something she can understand: Numbers on blood tests.

      The hospital doesn’t offer TSI, TBII or TgAb. Only available in research departments in the local universities. Not really up for jumping through hoops and rejection at the moment.

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    • Posted

      PS: Will get my basic labs at a private lab. Easier as don't have to go through a physician.
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    • Posted

      I was on 10 mg for two years.  My FT3 and FT4 remained normal at the middle to top of range but my TSH remained essentially at 0 for those 2 years.  Then when I added 3,000 mg of Regular L-Carnitine it rose to 0.12, still low but it was a change.  My doc dropped dose to 5 lmg and after two weeks on this dose I began to feel symptoms of hyper again so raised it to 7.5 mg.  I break the pills in half with my fingernails.  Then I started adding the other supplements and my TSH rose into normal range and Frees lowered more so my doc lowered my dosage from then on.
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  • Posted

    10 April 2016 update

    These are my personal observations of my own herbal intakes with Tapazole and Inderal and should not be taken as advice. Follow at your own risk.

    My last blood tests were 20 March. Plan to have another done 4th week of April.

    I started on the Bugleweed on 29 March, with Motherwort and Hawthorn a few days before that. 3 droppers/day of the Bugleweed and Motherwort (not sure of exact amounts in ml as 1 is a 30ml bottle, the other is 60ml with a longer stemmed dropper). The Hawthorn I’m currently taking is a syrup which I suspect is not very strong and will try a tincture next.

    At first, I was taking the herbals an hour apart from the 15 – 17.5mg/day Tapazole and 20mg/day Inderal. The Endo had dropped me to 15mg/day Tapazole on 25 March. After a few days, my heart was beginning to feel the distinctive strain.

    So I upped the Tapazole to 17.5mg which was comfortable… until I decided to take it at the same time as the herbals to be more efficient, or so I thought, as it seemed my whole day was dominated by clock watching, when to take the herbals, when to take the meds. The effect was obvious within a day or so: My heart was feeling the strain. My personal conclusion is that the herbals cancel out the effect of the Tapazole. I’ve also noted the Tapazole and Inderal should not be taken together because of known drug interactions but notably, has never been mentioned by any of the three Endos I’ve seen so far.

    It has become clear to me that herbals are best for MILD hyperthyroidism. Before I knew what was happening between the meds and herbals, I took twice the recommended daily intake in order to replicate the initial positive effect for a few days. Until it produced a hypoglycemic-type effect: Numbness in the finger tips, sugar cravings, fatigue. So back to the recommended daily intake.

    The acetyle l-carnitine and l-carnitine will arrive soon. Will start on them once I've seen the next test results.

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  • Posted

    Lab results 20 March 2016:

    - Microsomal Ab (anti-TPO)  H >1000.0  IU/mL     (Ref range 0.00 - 5.6)

    - Free T3                              H     4.89    pg/mL     (Ref range 1.71 - 3.71)

    - Free T4                              H     2.26    ng%         (Ref range 0.70 - 1.48)

    - TSH                                           <0.01 uIU/mL      (Ref range 0.35 -4.94)

    After three weeks of 3 droppers of Bugleweed, Motherwort, Hawthorn (weak syrup, so took 6 droppers) and 3 capsules Melissa/day, these were my results:

    Lab results 20 April 2016:

    - Microsomal Ab (anti-TPO)  H 488  IU/mL       (H >60 IU/mL)

    - Free T3                               H 5.84  pg/mL     (Ref range 2.27 - 4.22)

    - Free T4                               H 2.46  ng/dl       (Ref range 0.89 - 1.76)

    - TSH                                     <0.01   uIU/mL    (0.30-5.10)

     

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  • Posted

    I only got the 20 April results yesterday (27 April) from this new, much more expensive, slower lab in my local area, so will go back to the 20 March lab. 

    There's been some change in my antibodies results so there's something there in the herbals but the results are not dramatic enough for me. Plus, there's been no change in my TSH and my heart hasn't felt all that good. Every few days, there's noticeable discomfort, a feeling of being squeezed.

    I stopped the herbals last night after seeing the lab results and started on 1000mg acetyl-l-carnitine with the Tapazole. Still on 20mg and will take the full 2000mg dose of acetyl-l-carnitine today. I have an appointment with the Endo on 19 May.

     

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    • Posted

      That is much too high a dose of Acetyl-L-Carnitine to take.  You will go hypo in no time.  I would not take higher than 500 mg a day with that dose of Tapazole and even then I would be monitoring very frequently and your doc should adjust your Tapazole dose and you may have to adjust Acetyl dose to every other day.  Regular L-Carnitine is not as sensitive in terms of causing swings and that was what the research was done on.  I started on Regular L-Carnitine and added a low dose of Acetyl-L-Carnitine to it later and then had to make several adjustments as my labs improved.  Please be careful with Acetyl-L-Carnitine.

       

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  • Posted

    You're a saviour, Linda! Thank you. I've only just taken 1000mg today. Ok, will divide the 500mg into 2 doses which is what I'm doing with Tapazole 20mg/day.
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    • Posted

      From my experience and what I have seen from others who have taken this, I think 1,000 mg a day is still too high.  I would not take more than 500 mg once a day.  I was always on a once a day Tapazole dose and at a much lower dose of Tapazole than you are on and it required very close monitoring and frequent adjustments of both my Tapazole dosage which my Endocrinologist did and the Acetyl dose which I did.  At times I had to take it every other day or stop it altogether.  I am not kidding when I say it is extremely potent when it is taken with Tapzole.  It is not like the other natural treatments you have tried.  I took the Regular L-Carnitine first and that helped me to lower my dose of Tapazole so I was not taking it with as high a dose of Tapazole as you are.  The research was not done on Acetyl-L-Carnitine, it was done on Regular L-Carnitine.  Regular L-Carnitine is more stable than the Acetyl when combined with Tapazole and it would be more unlikely that you would go hypo on the Regular.  Unlike Regular L-Carnitine, Acetyl crosses the blood-brain barrier.  It is very potent when it is combined with Tapazole and I have seen too many patients go very hypo on it very quickly. It is always better to start supplements at the lowest dose to see how you feel and how it affects your labs.  I also was very fortunate that I have an excellent GP who ordered more frequent blood tests.  You cannot take it and not monitor your labs at least every 3-4 weeks minimum.  Vitamin D3 is also very important to take as most hyper patients are deficient in this. 
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    • Posted

      Hi Linda, yes, noted on 500mg/day. What I meant was I had already taken 1000mg of acetyl-l-carnitine this morning before I posted on this thread and saw your responses and will definitely revert to 500mg tomorrow. That was close. It's only day 2. Thank you for keeping an eye out on me and taking the time to explain. Yes, was aware that the Italian study was on regular l-carnitine. 

      My Endo had said I could take my Tapazole in one dose but personally, I feel better when I take it in two doses, as I was feeling twinges in my heart by the end of the day when I took the Tapazole in one dose.

       

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    • Posted

      Taking two doses is perfectly all right and most people do that, especially when they are on higher doses.  You can take the supplement with one dose (preferably your first dose) and take the second Tapazole dose without the supplement.
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    • Posted

      I agree don't overdo it.  I added reg L carnitine with just one of my daily med. doses. I only took 1 - 500 mg Lcarnitine along with 5 mg MMI and by my next labs I raised my TSH from 0.03 to 1.12.   
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    • Posted

      Hi again... so say i take total carnitine blood test and it's normal.. Should i take the carnitine supplement still? I was at my brother's house and I saw he is taking L-carnitine liquid and I googled and I was reading about it and it says it will help me get lean.  Since you're on 2.5mg of ...zole how much carnitine are you taking?  Im on stable right now so I don't want to push for hypo and hyper and give my endo a big question mark on her head... 

      heres my lab TSH with reflex FT4

      NAME (STANDARD RANGE) 

      TSH (0.40 - 4.00 uIU/mL)

      12/18/15 - 1.35 

      1/25/16 - 1.91 

      2/26/16 - 2.09 

      4/17/16- 2.04

       

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    • Posted

      Linda, yes, I have done as you suggested as I couldn't figure a way to divide an acetyl-l-carnitine capsule accurately.

      After dropping the herbals, I went a bit hyper last night - couldn't sleep till 3am and had mild tightness in my lefthand side chest area.

      Will keep observing and give it another day or so for my body to adjust to acetyl-l-carnitine. I'm feeling I might need to use Motherwort, Hawthorn and Lemon Balm to help my heart - though not Bugleweed as mindful of what you said about possible interactions between Bugleweed and Tapazole and from personal experience - but will wait and see. Still on 15mg Inderal in divided doses.

      Yes, still on magnesium, copper, Vitamin D3, flaxseed alternating with Alaskan Salmon oil.

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