Heaven ~ Hell ~ where does purgatory fit in?

You have me wondering that Marey on the web this week some doctors at an American hospital have been conducting interviews on patients who had near death or clinical death experiences they even went to the trouble of putting 2 or 3 object on paper on a shelve in part of the ER where OOTB experiences could have picked them up, sadly none of the resucitated saw these but 3 who had OOTB experiences were able to say various things such as what one nurse said (they just checked back on the patients file) and one patient who only saw the back of the doctor was able to describe him and say he was bald (even though he had a scub hat on) once again a check revealed the truth.  So now you have me thinking Marey who knows all I know is that scientist's these days are more and more in agreement that after life there is something.  Just to put the record straight this was not a private discusion between Marey and I all are welcome to coment on it so please feel free.

yes...in my experience there is a great deal of openmindedness about this now. even lectures about it.

May I Interject for a minute.  The situation regarding private messages I thought was squashed but it's apparent there's still something ongoing with this.

It was mentioned that if someone had insulted or said something that upset another person that the best way to handle these types of situations is to settle it in a private conversation as it gets everyone upset for no reason.  We all need each and every morsel of energy and arguing or settling such things in the open fourm will cause undue stress to some and possibly even making a decision for them to leave.  Does this make sense?  It was in no  way mentioned to exclude anyone from any other conversation but it was intended to exclude all of us who do not belong in that situation it's for the two to work out on their own.  So, unless this isn't clear, please can we just squash that topic?  It's taking time away from the discussion.

Thank you

Frustrated

i'm having a problem following a single block of text so am inviting responses to me in separate columns...(in response to some one mentioning they were getting lost). Hope this is helpful and meets your approval!!....We  can all do it so its easier for others to find and answer the questions,  points, or those of others. xx

Thank you Peter. These near and after death experiences are fascinating. It has wonderfully enriched this whole discussion. I am so glad you and others have not been shy about sharing.

That was not a private discusion per se Marey asked a question of me to which I did the polite thing and that was to reply.  The threads of any discussion on this site is public and being so anyone can read the before and after.

Hello Peter,

I think as priority of principles go politness / tact / sensitivity needs do take precedence over the imortant principle that exchanges between two people should have content that is of general interest to the Group. Thank you for bringing our focus onto the courtesy aspect of your exchange.

Hi all,

The way I see it is like this, the "subject" itself will bring in various answers and questions, all people have their own beliefs and why they believe in them. They would probably question many reasons that have been brought up here, just because I believe in science, doesn't mean my whole family does. My daughter has a very different outlook on life, and like myself and the rest of our family we respect her wishes, and vice versa.

If I have upset anyone, I apologize - but I do respect everyone has their own beliefs for a reason.

One thing I don't agree with is people that 'push' their beliefs on others, a typical person of this is my own brother which in the end, ended his marriage of 17 years with a very messy divorce. To me that is the wrong approach, and one that I would avoid at all costs. My brother would not listen to anyone, his friends deserted him and finally his wife and family, now he has no one, and now realizes he went to far, but was too late. I still speak and see him, he has no one else, our parents both passed away in the past 10 years. When he was married I had to take drastic measures, phoning the Police and Social Services, to prevent their baby getting abused - my wife and I, even asked social services if we could help, even though I am disabled. My brother was just going to give his son away, it was only when my father stepped in, a person that never gets involved in familes gave him an ultimatum, either keep your son or don't ever bother coming to see him again. At least the baby was kept and close contact with Social Services keeping an eye on them.

Oh well, I did it again! Off track as usual - my brother went to the extremes and is now a lonely 40 year old.

Regards,

Les.

Peter ~

One of my experiences was while I was having a D&C, I felt that I woke up during this.  I could hear everyone talking and I wanted to tell them I could feel what was going on but they had the breathing tube down my throat.  When they put the apparatus in to perform the D&C, I felt excruciating pain.  I felt like my back arched and I could feel tightness in my neck.

I had a follow up approx. a week later and told the doctor what I experienced and she looked at her assistant with a perplexed look then said, "there is no way you could have been awake as you were being monitored from an anesthesiologist and I assure you  that you never woke up".  I then repeated a conversation I heard them talking about, it was golf.  I told her what so and so said and how she responded.  She shook her head as though that never happened.  Then I asked, why was my neck so sore that I could barely move it from side to side, she had no explanation.  I told her that this did happen and she knew it happened, why not just be honest about it.  She said, "I believe it "could" have happened, but it's seems so impossible because of me being under with the anesthesia.  Then "slipped" and said they have had problems with a certain Ana dr before and perhaps this is just another example of the monitoring not being accurate". 

I wasn't angry or upset.  I just wanted to make sure she knew this happened.  Approx. a month later, I had to go back again as the situation I was having continued.  It was at that time, she did tell me that what I experienced did in fact happen.  So, did I perhaps die for a moment and saw everything while it took place or was this just a mishandling of the anesthesia?  That, I'm afraid I'll never know for sure.

I do have another situation that happened to me while being operated on.  I'll post that next.

Frustrated

Marey,

could you explain, please, what you meant by "responding in separate columns"?  I guess I'm a bit confused with that.  I'd love to have this come out clearer as I find myself going back and forth too much then I tire out and find I have to log off for a while.  Take this post, for example, I hit "reply to marey" right under the info you just put forth and if I'm correct, it'll go to the end of this page.  So please clarify anything that could be helpful to this annoying situation!

Thank you,

Frustrated

Hi les

what was it that your brother was trying to push?

Hi Les

Thank you for that account. Perhaps on the surface a little off the topic but on further reflection I think you were right to include it. It is an account of the damage and misery that can result from pushing one's ideas and beliefs and having little regard for the effect that pushyiness is having on the other person. It is very much the sort of thing we are all trying to avoid even on a very much milder scale. I think we all find it difficult at times to present our beliefs in a manner acceptable to all..

Continued ~

I'll try to make this short as sometimes I get a bit wordy with my replies.

While undergoing an operation to remove a tubal pregnancy, I felt myself floating above the operation table.  I recall how light it was in the operating room and also how cold it was.  I say some of the people in there scattering around then heard someone say, call "code blue".  I felt a euphoric sense as I "floated" around and down the hallway.  I saw my doctor speaking with my husband and my mother.  I then saw a flummoxed look on my doctors face as he turned and excused himself and almost ran down the hallway.  Both my mother and husband started to whimper and I felt myself going towards them trying to comfort them.  It was shortly after that moment, I felt a huge pressure on me and "shock" into my system as I fell back down on the table.

After a few days of me being in ICU, they took me to a regular room.  I had a moment to speak with my doctor and told him what I experienced.  He took a big breath and sat down on the end of my bed.  He did say, my heart stopped and they had to use the paddle to bring it back into a normal rhythm.  I told him what happened with me "traveling" down the hallway and seeing all three of them (mother, husband and doctor).  This did happen to me. I also felt while they were reviving me, a bit of anger that they would put me in so much discomfort when i was satisfied with being in the euphoric state.  That particular time, I didn't see the "tunnel" as some describe, but I did get that sensation of not being "alive" as in the human state.  Like dying but not really knowing I died, does this make sense?  Has anyone ever had this happen to them?

Frustrated

Please could we take this question of how best to use the system to the Discussion and enquiry into that. It is not at all about purgatory. (Please don't be upset with me asking for this.)

You can break this block of thread by starting a new one... by replying to yourself at the very bottom. 

It will say frustrated > frustrated (or maybe your name alone...try it)

but you can address whoever you want to speak to in that new block....so they can reply to you....others can chime in ..but then someone puts in another break. Its all experimental !!!!!!!

At mo if you want to reply to me here the thread is short enough that its not worth putting in a break

very much sounds as if you had insufficient anaesthesia. I am so sorry about that.

For an out of body experience to have taken place you would have had to have arrested on the table....that they would most definitely have known about.

Anaesthetists are the most qualified medics...the surgeons rely on them. Have had some get addicted to the gases...and all are human.

Very compassionate of you to be so understanding but I am really really sorry you had that experience.

Oh but in this second experience you very definitely did arrest.

Hi Les ~

I can see some bearance in what you're saying.  My cousin pushed and pushed with his beliefs.  At first we listened then he got "pushy" and he ended up alone.  He is now in an entirely different state far from us.  He's traveled toIsrael for the "cause".  It's a sad and lonely life, as he's admitted.  His distance has actually brought everyone a bit closer until, he starts his "preaching".

See, it's easy to fall into the "off track".  However, it keeping everyone posting which in turn, my beliefs, it's helping one to stop thinking about their situation...for me it does.

Back to "purgatory".  My beliefs are, we are in purgatory.  Just because one doesn't recall anything like experiencing "death, seeing the light"do, doesn't mean you haven't been sent back to see".  Your thoughts, anyone?

Frustrated

Well marey, that is a strange question and I'll tell you for why. He was very religious but not in the normal, well not I would class as normal. He based his religion on the King James bible, which version I do not know - because he preached to people how they should interpretant it, which was in his way, basically a version of King James Bible but rewritten in his way.

That may sound bad to some people and not to others, but he would go up to people he never knew, knocked on peoples doors of people he didn't know trying to get them to believe in him and his version was correct. At one point even I tried to avoid him, because he would bring religion in to everything, it was ridiculous.

I mean if I was to go down the road and met our own vicar, you can have a civilized conversation, and at no point would he or she bring religion into the conversation. You can talk about anything even the news, etc.

My brother on the other hand was totally the opposite. His divorce was based mainly on the way he controlled the whole family. If you ever visited his house, you would not see any newspapers, the TV was never on, no radios, etc. The only life with the outside world was either via computer or phone, nothing else. No hot dinners, always salads 7 days a week. His son is very behind in education, but it is not surprising considering his upbringing. If anyone went visiting them, he would show them the door, if they said something wrong about his religion.

We could never understand why he went to these extremes, considering his wife had already threatened to leave him a few years before. Yet he carried on until she divorced him

I will never understand the logic or reasons why he made these rational decisions, he seems to live in the 'past' if that makes any sense.

Regards,

Les.

Well, that went in the wrong place. Marey that was answering your message to me a few questions above.

George ~

I apologize if you found this  unworthy of this discussion but it's just my experience of the afterlife and how I can agree with those who had similar experiences.  There is a connection to this discussion but perhaps I could have worded it differently?

Frustrated (also, I couldn't get upset with you so, there!) lolol

It makes perfect sense regarding your brother living in the "past".  I'm wondering if your brother could actually be my cousin   Not really.  However, my cousin did belong to this "church" that seemed to "brainwash" other's to do and believe how they did.  If one's mind is weak, it will follow anything that they feel is "listening" to them and those "cults" are severly distorted with their thinking, in fact, it all comes down to money.  All the 'followers' turned their checks over to this church and in turn the church would pay their bills but keep the leftover money which in some cases, more than 70%. 

Anyway, off the subject again. But I will add, that mentioning the "afterlife" to my cousin, made him believe I was a cult of "satan". HA! oh well.

Frustrated

I concur with you all the way George just a shame that few people don't in this day and age

Hi Marey ~

I couldn't agree with you more regarding anesthesiologist, however for a over 125 years, they've had nurse anesthetists.  The Anesthesiologist does his/her rounds watching over the NA's.  There's room for mistake there.  I believe that's what happened to me.

Who knows for sure.

Frustrated

A am sorry, frustrated. You connected my comment with the nearest of your comments above my comment. But I was referring to your  comment two above my comment, the one with marey about structuring the discussion. I should have indicated this as I was many hours behind in replying. I can see you were rather perplexed as to why I should object to your afterlife experiences. Many hold that purgatory is the next calling place after this life although you see it as the miseries of this life,.

I've seen in these conversations that some believe it's to come and some see it as "now".  It really isn't a matter of who's right and who's wrong.  It's a matter of opinion, right?  and I'm not perplexed at all.  I certainly would tell you if that be the case.  I was just confused, is all.

Frustrated