How many cores are reasonable?

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I have a PSA of 18.5. I insisted on having an MRI done before I would agree to a biopsy. The MRI came back showing two areas with a PI–RADS 5 (very likely cancer) One area with a PI-RADS 4 (very likely cancer), One area with restricted diffusion and abnormal signal One area with restricted diffusion and abnormal signal ADC. Originally, the urologist wanted to do a 12 core random biopsy ( this was before I insisted on the MRI) Now he wants to do two cores for each suspicious area PLUS the 12 core random biopsy.

My original plan was if there were no areas of concern, and I would not move forward with the biopsy. Unfortunately, there are several areas of concern based on the MRI. So, my next plan was to just have him do targeted biopsies only in the areas of concern.he said that the T3 MRI could have missed some areas that may contain cancer and so he wants to do 12 random cores plus two biopsies in each of the areas of concern. That's going to be 18 to 20 biopsy Cors!

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  • Posted

    I underwent a saturation biopsy with no ill effects. I think 36 samples were taken and only 2 showed cancer (after which my psa stayed at 8.5and fortunately hasn't changed for some years now) I recommend going for getting as many samples as possible while they're at it!
  • Posted

    I don't know what medical authority you are under but if it is the NHS in the UK then I would be absolutely insistent about your biopsy being targetted - they seem to have a default setting for saturation which is hard to change. I, too, was offered a biopsy in the first instance but I insisted on an MRI. The MRI showed only one area of concern (PIRADS 4) so I then went in for a targetted MRI. Unbelievably, the notes did not refer to a targetted biopsy so I insisted that the notes were changed on the day of my biopsy. Despite all this the biopsy was still untargetted with only one core out of 18 showing signs of cancer. The other 17 cores were a total waste of time. I suffered greatly after the biopsy and am still angry about this.

    ​The reason I am stating this is that patients often believe they are doing the right thing but due to a lack of communication/skill/budget or whatever, the Urologist still ploughs on with a saturation biopsy anyway. 

    ​Good luck for tomorrow!

  • Posted

    Follow-up and a few suggestions based on my experience to some questions from others on this forum.

    First, do not get a biopsy based ONLY on a PSA score. There is nothing wrong with having a PSA test done if you have symptoms or concerns. However the evidence suggests a PSA test is NOT an accurate guide by itself to warrant a biopsy. If you PSA is high or increasing, I would recommend getting a PCA3 test which I have read is much better at predicting the presents of prostate cancer and the type.

    Second, if the PSA and PCA3 test are at a suspicious level then insist on an MRI and get the results back before agreeing to a biopsy. Also, the MRI is a great way for the urologist to know WHERE to biopsy. In the words of my radiologist, his logic/analogy was...a bank robber "goes where the money is" so at least biopsy the areas of concern notes on the MRI.

    Below is a recap of my journey so far...

    Originally the urologist was going to do 12 blind cores based on the PSA score of 18.5. My goal was to avoid doing a biopsy so I insisted on an MRI first to see if there was more evidence to support doing a biopsy because the DRE (by two different urologists) did not indicate any abnormality and as we all know the PSA by itself is not a good indicator of cancer. So the T3 MRI was performed and came back showing two areas level 5 (high probability of cancer) one level 4 (very likely probability of cancer) and one level 2 (most likely benign). And to make matters more alarming, in the radiologist report, the areas of concern are against the prostate wall with concern that the cancer may have already breached the prostate.

    I talked to Sperling cancer center and they could not comment directly to my situation but they only target the areas of Concern. However they said depending on the experience of the radiologist and the quality of the images, he may or may not miss something on the MRI. And then (of course) they encouraged me to come to their center for the biopsy. I talked with the radiologist who did the reading. He suggested focusing on the areas of concern because he felt very likely that will be where they will most likely find issues that need addressed. I also talked with my contact at the cancer center of America. She said she would be inclined to do both the targeted and random samples so more likely nothing is missed.

    After getting everyone's opinion, I felt that probably only doing the areas of concern would show us if I had cancer. My final conclusion was that the whole purpose of the biopsy is to see if there is cancer, where it is located, and what type. The more I know about my prostate the better I can make an educated decision. Knowledge is power (and since we are doing the biopsy anyway) having a general idea of how the rest of the prostate is will give me a better idea of how to proceed with whatever treatment is necessary.

    I'm not saying my decision to allow the urologist to do more cores than the areas of concern is right for everyone. It was just the right decision for me at the time with the information I had available. Maybe explaining my thought process will help others with their decision.

    One last note regarding the biopsy. My original goal was to avoid or only agree to a biopsy if there was enough evidence to support it. I took a conservative approach and even insisted on a PCA3 test before allowing the biopsy. Unfortunately when the MRI came back with such bad results, I didn't see a reason for the PCA3 test. To my urologist credit, he was very agreeable to all my requests and never tried to talk me out of the MRI or PCA3 tests I only wish he was the one who brought up those options when we were determining a plan of action.

    Always go in with as much knowledge as possible.

  • Posted

    I must have missed something as to why biopsies are so unpopular. To me, if my urologist, whom I trust, says he wants to do one, I want one. I'd rather have 20 clear samples and little or no cancer found than risk something bad being missed. It's all good information. The waking biopsy I had wasn't all that unpleasant and I knew nothing about the saturation biopsy I had under general anaesthetic. I had preventive anti-biotics provided and apart from a little blood in urine for a few days after, no adverse effects. Was I just lucky?
    • Posted

      In a word, yes. Many people have particularly unpleasant experiences with sepsis being a real (an increasing) risk. Alfred5 is one example of someone who has suffered recently. I would recommend the approach suggested by Dr Jay Cohen:

      ​1) If high PSA, have at least one other to find a trend.

      ​2) If still high, take a course of antibiotics and retest to rule out infection

      3) If still high/rising have MRI (preferable Colour Doppler)

      ​4) If suggestive of PCa then, and only then, TARGETTED biopsy

      ​To have invasive treatment prior to this seems to be taking an unnecessary risk

    • Posted

      Most doctors do a TRUS guided biopsy when you are awake. There are many risks with this proceedure. The risk of death from sepsis is probably the worst of them, but some will experience permanent damage such as being unable to have an erection or unable to hold urine. Not to mention if they don't use pain controll it can be very painful. If they use it and the doctor isn't very skilled they can overdose you on the medicine causing death or not due the block correctly and you feel lots of pain. If you are put out then you probably will have little knowledge of anything but most are not done this way. There are some serious risks to getting a biopsy and it shouldn't be taken lightly. Me personally would like to avoid it at all costs, unless they are sure I have cancer and it is needed. Many are done on men that never needed it in the first place.
  • Posted

    New update...

    I went to the hospital records dept. and got my results from pathology. FYI, you don't have to wait until you revisit the urologist to get your results. I don't fully understand every nuance of the report but I did google everything and have a basic understanding. The worst was one Gleason score of 3+3 = 6 out of 22 cores. 3 areas of small acinar proliferation. And the rest no malignancy found. Also, no perineural invasion identified. So, I have cancer but is not as aggressive as other types. I know there is a lot of debate about doing biopsies but looks like it was the right choice for me. Now I need to figure out how to proceed with this new information.

    • Posted

      Good outcome. A Gleason 6 should not be called PCa.
  • Posted

    This is in my view a good result for you. Very similar to my own. For some years now I have been fine on Active Surveillance - usually 6-monthly psa blood tests and a visit to my Urologist with no treatment until Benign Enlargement entered into the equation and caused me recurrent infections, nothing to do with cancer.. No quarantees, of course, but for some of us, nothing needs to be done about the cancer apart from regular chacks. Good healt to you!
    • Posted

      Yes, I am somewhat encouraged but want to hear from the urologist and cancer institute of America. If I can take a active watch and wait, then I will see if the PAE procedure is still an option to reduce the size of my prostate. Maybe the blood restriction will also slow or kill the cancer.
    • Posted

      My search where the link is being moderated was to this:

      It seems as if a tumor deprived of oxygen would shrink. However, numerous studies have shown that tumor hypoxia, in which portions of the tumor have significantly low oxygen concentrations, is in fact linked with more aggressive tumor behavior and poorer prognosis. It's as if rather than succumbing to gently hypoxic conditions, the lack of oxygen commonly created as a tumor outgrows its blood supply signals a tumor to grow and metastasize in search of new oxygen sources -- for example, hypoxic bladder cancers are likely to metastasize to the lungs, which is frequently deadly.

    • Posted

      Hi I noticed you've been on active surveillance for few years now this is what route I am thinking of going down as

      Mir staged t2c as suspicious areas right and left but cancer only found in right side

      Gleason score 6

      Transpirenial biopsy 40 cores tested

      1 core right posterior contained 3.5% cancer

      Sime high grade pin on left side

      I'm only 44 they said it's very small amount so active surveillance would be the best thing as no need to suffer all side effects unless absolutely have to.

      Checked every 3 months with psa and dre exam.

      Just wanted to hear how you've coped being on active surveillance and what your initial Gleason and psa was if you don't mind me asking.

      Cheers Andy

    • Posted

      pT1c Gleason 6 N0 MX adenocarcinoma of the prostate

      T1c: tumor was found in a needle biopsy performed due to an elevated serum PSA

      N0: there has been no spread to the regional lymph nodes

      MX: cannot evaluate distant metastasis

      Between psa tests and urology appointments, - usually 6-monthly, I've been able to forget I technically have a cancer diagnosis, so I've found it comparably easy to live with. (I'm known for my laid-back attitude to life)

  • Posted

    Surely PAE is only intended to treat BPH?

     

    • Posted

      Yea, It could possibly slow the cancer. I would think that it wouldn't be used for that. Cancer is nothing to play around with so I doubt any doctor would suggest PAE for a cancer treatment.
    • Posted

      Sorry, I didn't mean to imply PAE as a treatment for my cancer. I have an enlarged prostate that causes me to pee frequently and not completely empty my bladder. (That's what started this whole adventure). So even if my cancer is slow and I don't have to take action specifically for the cancer...I still have to deal with an enlarged prostate and if I can take a watch and wait plan for the cancer, then perhaps I can do the PAE procedure to reduce the size of the prostate. I was just saying that maybe an added benefit would be that some of cells that die or shrink from restriction of blood flow might be some of the cancer cells.
    • Posted

      I don't know enough about how cancer cells develop to comment on that, but PAE for BPH certainly makes sense and it gets a lot of votes on this forum. I asked my urologist whether it was suitable for me but he says it (and Urolift) are still too experimental, so I'm having TURP (he says nervously!) on 4th April, so wish me luck!
    • Posted

      I hope that PAE is a viable option for me in the near future. I had a heck of a time urinating this morning. It was like trying to urinate through a cocktail straw. I have BPH pretty bad for my age. I am 47 so by the time I am 50 I may need one of these proceedures. I hope my Urologist isn't going to screen me for PC. I think it is just BPH. Oh well if it happens then I will probably get screened. I hate having prostate trouble. I feel for all of you on here, because I know what you are going through and it is no fun. I don't want to have to run to the hospital to get cathed so I can drain my bladder, nearly to that point now.
    • Posted

      I'm glad I learned to self-cath - maybe this would work for you?
    • Posted

      I hope I don't ever need to do it but this morning I was close. I will ask my uro about it.
    • Posted

      Craig, peeing was the only problem I was having. My concern for you is that you can damage your bladder (even beyond repair) if you do not get this urination problem corrected. I struggled with going pee for about a year and a half until I was just about where you are now.

      You are young so if you have not had a DRE, get one to make sure you don't have any suspicious lumps. If everything is ok, get a PCA3 test (considered by many to be more accurate than PSA). If the PCA3 test comes back negative then look for the best treatment for you to reduce the size of your prostate. However, If that comes back positive then do an MRI. If that shows areas of concern then do a biopsy. But don't wait any longer and risk damaging your bladder! .

      My DRE exam was normal other than an enlarged prostate. There were no hard spots, or lumps or anything felt by two different urologist. As a matter of fact, the first urologist ( in spite of my PSA score of 18.5) did not even think I needed a biopsy. He performed a cystoscopy and everything looked good except for prostate enlargement AND my blather was stressed do to not completely emptying. He said I needed to correct the urination issue or the damage could become permanent. The second urologist (in my opinion) was a little to quick to have me jump on the biopsy table before doing some other tests. After doing the MRI, a biopsy was warranted and low grade non-aggressive cancer was found. But now I have the knowledge to deal with it.

      Bottom line, get the problem corrected now so you don't damage your bladder. Findout what is causing your problem. If your problem is not cancerous, DO NOT let them talk you into cutting part or all your prostate out. Research all the less invasive procedures before you decide on a course of action. Read about the side effects of each procedure.

    • Posted

      I appreciate the advice. I am going back in next week. My uro milked my prostate the last time I was in, but she didn't say that she felt anything strange. I would be more trusting in the PCA3 test than PSA. I really don't want a biopsy done unless absolutely needed. I am a little scared that I could have PC, but it doesn't run in my family. BPH does run in my family as my Dad had to have TURP due to him being like me. He never had a biopsy done, but when they do TURP they send the tissue to a pathologist for examination and no cancer was found. I am feeling pain due to some form of Prostatitis. If I have PC then it probably is no longer contained as I have symptoms of something. I hope it is just Prostatitis. I really hate having this problem at my age. I didn't expect BPH until maybe my late 50's. Thanks again.
    • Posted

      Craig: You know my story, and I started with a MRI as part of a pre-operative for a PAE. Long story short, I dodged a bullet by early identification of PCa and Robot-assisted Prostatectomy. Ironically, it was a bladder calcification that caused the nocturia, urgency etc that led me to think it was BPH.

      While my GP was useless, the Interventional Radiologist and two Urologists I consulted were brilliant. They always laid out the alternatives, including pros and cons, so I could make the decisions.

      One has to pay for peace of mind, so I'd always recommend starting with a T3 MRI, rather than having one late in the process.

    • Posted

      I hear you there. I don't think the problem is in my bladder although stranger things have happened. I have a lot of prostate pain . Radiates through my groin and down my penis. Also have the golf ball feeling in my rectum. My dad had bph something terrible and it would make sense that I would ask well. No cancer but again stranger things have happened. I was really alarmed by my inability to empty my bladder this morning. I am to young for this but it is what it is, so I need to cope with it. I have dealt with Crohns Disease so I can handle this as well. I will ask my Urologist about the MRI depending on what she wants to do to figure out what is wrong with me. I feel for all of you. I know it is a tough blow, so hang in there and I appreciate your input and advice.
    • Posted

      That makes sense, however if for some reason the cancer takes off you may want the robotic surgery and then the PAE would be for nothing. But it does make sense to do it. I am 47 and in the same situation accept I don't have cancer just bad BPH. It really sucks to not be able to urinate.

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