How many cores are reasonable?
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I have a PSA of 18.5. I insisted on having an MRI done before I would agree to a biopsy. The MRI came back showing two areas with a PI–RADS 5 (very likely cancer) One area with a PI-RADS 4 (very likely cancer), One area with restricted diffusion and abnormal signal One area with restricted diffusion and abnormal signal ADC. Originally, the urologist wanted to do a 12 core random biopsy ( this was before I insisted on the MRI) Now he wants to do two cores for each suspicious area PLUS the 12 core random biopsy.
My original plan was if there were no areas of concern, and I would not move forward with the biopsy. Unfortunately, there are several areas of concern based on the MRI. So, my next plan was to just have him do targeted biopsies only in the areas of concern.he said that the T3 MRI could have missed some areas that may contain cancer and so he wants to do 12 random cores plus two biopsies in each of the areas of concern. That's going to be 18 to 20 biopsy Cors!
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Pepasan ES28567
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david41094 ES28567
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The reason I am stating this is that patients often believe they are doing the right thing but due to a lack of communication/skill/budget or whatever, the Urologist still ploughs on with a saturation biopsy anyway.
Good luck for tomorrow!
ES28567
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First, do not get a biopsy based ONLY on a PSA score. There is nothing wrong with having a PSA test done if you have symptoms or concerns. However the evidence suggests a PSA test is NOT an accurate guide by itself to warrant a biopsy. If you PSA is high or increasing, I would recommend getting a PCA3 test which I have read is much better at predicting the presents of prostate cancer and the type.
Second, if the PSA and PCA3 test are at a suspicious level then insist on an MRI and get the results back before agreeing to a biopsy. Also, the MRI is a great way for the urologist to know WHERE to biopsy. In the words of my radiologist, his logic/analogy was...a bank robber "goes where the money is" so at least biopsy the areas of concern notes on the MRI.
Below is a recap of my journey so far...
Originally the urologist was going to do 12 blind cores based on the PSA score of 18.5. My goal was to avoid doing a biopsy so I insisted on an MRI first to see if there was more evidence to support doing a biopsy because the DRE (by two different urologists) did not indicate any abnormality and as we all know the PSA by itself is not a good indicator of cancer. So the T3 MRI was performed and came back showing two areas level 5 (high probability of cancer) one level 4 (very likely probability of cancer) and one level 2 (most likely benign). And to make matters more alarming, in the radiologist report, the areas of concern are against the prostate wall with concern that the cancer may have already breached the prostate.
I talked to Sperling cancer center and they could not comment directly to my situation but they only target the areas of Concern. However they said depending on the experience of the radiologist and the quality of the images, he may or may not miss something on the MRI. And then (of course) they encouraged me to come to their center for the biopsy. I talked with the radiologist who did the reading. He suggested focusing on the areas of concern because he felt very likely that will be where they will most likely find issues that need addressed. I also talked with my contact at the cancer center of America. She said she would be inclined to do both the targeted and random samples so more likely nothing is missed.
After getting everyone's opinion, I felt that probably only doing the areas of concern would show us if I had cancer. My final conclusion was that the whole purpose of the biopsy is to see if there is cancer, where it is located, and what type. The more I know about my prostate the better I can make an educated decision. Knowledge is power (and since we are doing the biopsy anyway) having a general idea of how the rest of the prostate is will give me a better idea of how to proceed with whatever treatment is necessary.
I'm not saying my decision to allow the urologist to do more cores than the areas of concern is right for everyone. It was just the right decision for me at the time with the information I had available. Maybe explaining my thought process will help others with their decision.
One last note regarding the biopsy. My original goal was to avoid or only agree to a biopsy if there was enough evidence to support it. I took a conservative approach and even insisted on a PCA3 test before allowing the biopsy. Unfortunately when the MRI came back with such bad results, I didn't see a reason for the PCA3 test. To my urologist credit, he was very agreeable to all my requests and never tried to talk me out of the MRI or PCA3 tests I only wish he was the one who brought up those options when we were determining a plan of action.
Always go in with as much knowledge as possible.
Pepasan ES28567
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david41094 Pepasan
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1) If high PSA, have at least one other to find a trend.
2) If still high, take a course of antibiotics and retest to rule out infection
3) If still high/rising have MRI (preferable Colour Doppler)
4) If suggestive of PCa then, and only then, TARGETTED biopsy
To have invasive treatment prior to this seems to be taking an unnecessary risk
craig84609 Pepasan
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stewarta david41094
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ES28567
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I went to the hospital records dept. and got my results from pathology. FYI, you don't have to wait until you revisit the urologist to get your results. I don't fully understand every nuance of the report but I did google everything and have a basic understanding. The worst was one Gleason score of 3+3 = 6 out of 22 cores. 3 areas of small acinar proliferation. And the rest no malignancy found. Also, no perineural invasion identified. So, I have cancer but is not as aggressive as other types. I know there is a lot of debate about doing biopsies but looks like it was the right choice for me. Now I need to figure out how to proceed with this new information.
stewarta ES28567
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Pepasan ES28567
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ES28567 Pepasan
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Pepasan ES28567
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It seems as if a tumor deprived of oxygen would shrink. However, numerous studies have shown that tumor hypoxia, in which portions of the tumor have significantly low oxygen concentrations, is in fact linked with more aggressive tumor behavior and poorer prognosis. It's as if rather than succumbing to gently hypoxic conditions, the lack of oxygen commonly created as a tumor outgrows its blood supply signals a tumor to grow and metastasize in search of new oxygen sources -- for example, hypoxic bladder cancers are likely to metastasize to the lungs, which is frequently deadly.
andrew64174 Pepasan
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Mir staged t2c as suspicious areas right and left but cancer only found in right side
Gleason score 6
Transpirenial biopsy 40 cores tested
1 core right posterior contained 3.5% cancer
Sime high grade pin on left side
I'm only 44 they said it's very small amount so active surveillance would be the best thing as no need to suffer all side effects unless absolutely have to.
Checked every 3 months with psa and dre exam.
Just wanted to hear how you've coped being on active surveillance and what your initial Gleason and psa was if you don't mind me asking.
Cheers Andy
Pepasan andrew64174
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pT1c Gleason 6 N0 MX adenocarcinoma of the prostate
T1c: tumor was found in a needle biopsy performed due to an elevated serum PSA
N0: there has been no spread to the regional lymph nodes
MX: cannot evaluate distant metastasis
Between psa tests and urology appointments, - usually 6-monthly, I've been able to forget I technically have a cancer diagnosis, so I've found it comparably easy to live with. (I'm known for my laid-back attitude to life)
Pepasan ES28567
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craig84609 Pepasan
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ES28567 craig84609
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Pepasan ES28567
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craig84609 Pepasan
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Pepasan craig84609
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craig84609 Pepasan
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Pepasan ES28567
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120913123516.htm
ES28567 craig84609
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You are young so if you have not had a DRE, get one to make sure you don't have any suspicious lumps. If everything is ok, get a PCA3 test (considered by many to be more accurate than PSA). If the PCA3 test comes back negative then look for the best treatment for you to reduce the size of your prostate. However, If that comes back positive then do an MRI. If that shows areas of concern then do a biopsy. But don't wait any longer and risk damaging your bladder! .
My DRE exam was normal other than an enlarged prostate. There were no hard spots, or lumps or anything felt by two different urologist. As a matter of fact, the first urologist ( in spite of my PSA score of 18.5) did not even think I needed a biopsy. He performed a cystoscopy and everything looked good except for prostate enlargement AND my blather was stressed do to not completely emptying. He said I needed to correct the urination issue or the damage could become permanent. The second urologist (in my opinion) was a little to quick to have me jump on the biopsy table before doing some other tests. After doing the MRI, a biopsy was warranted and low grade non-aggressive cancer was found. But now I have the knowledge to deal with it.
Bottom line, get the problem corrected now so you don't damage your bladder. Findout what is causing your problem. If your problem is not cancerous, DO NOT let them talk you into cutting part or all your prostate out. Research all the less invasive procedures before you decide on a course of action. Read about the side effects of each procedure.
craig84609 ES28567
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stewarta craig84609
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While my GP was useless, the Interventional Radiologist and two Urologists I consulted were brilliant. They always laid out the alternatives, including pros and cons, so I could make the decisions.
One has to pay for peace of mind, so I'd always recommend starting with a T3 MRI, rather than having one late in the process.
craig84609 stewarta
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craig84609 ES28567
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