Night Terrors - Waking Terrors??

Hi Rich,

I'd just logged on to my email when this came up.

Sorry to hear things haven't been quite as good lately, but that's par for the course with all sleep disorders, as you probably know. Just wondering whether that feeling of "the fight having gone out of me" might be connected to the benzo you're taking. They do have a generally damping-down effect. But I'm sure you have enough insight to work out whether or not this applies to you.

Oh yes - I've had the one where the whole world went missing too, and I know just how terrifying that can be. And I recall that my own NTs were often influenced by the evening's events, like yours. The wild-boar-in-the-bedroom happened the night after I'd been reading an article in bed about a farmer who was trying to domesticate them. The evening before the one where I nearly jumped out of the window because I thought poison gas was leaking into my room, I'd come home from work to find the heating engineer on the doorstep, having been summoned by the building manager. I let him into the boiler room, which happened to be just the other side of the wall from my bedroom (I was in a ground floor flat) so could hear the antiquated oil-fired boiler making an assortment of noises during the evening as he worked on it. That was clearly what set me off.

I'm impressed that you can retain some lucidity during your attacks. I can never do that in NTs, only during sleep paralysis, which is why I actually prefer the latter. Even though they can be agonisingly painful (especially when being eaten alive by wild animals!) at least I know at some level it's not real and, like you, can hang on to that until I can eventually get out of it. My night terrors, on the other hand, are utterly real for me, with no possibility of negotiation. Not too much of a problem nowadays, when they only last a few seconds, but when I was having the long, creative variety like yours I sometimes came out of it with my heart pounding so fast from the terror, I really thought I was going to die.

Thanks for putting the wind up me over MRIs! I'm due one soon - neck vertebrae and base of brain. Not sleep-related, but I've had vertigo problems all my life, and it's got a lot worse in the past year. I've had a few falls lately, including a terrifying one on a down escalator last spring. My GP wants to check my neck vertebrae, as age-related arthritis in this area can cause stiffness, with the knock-on effect of interrupting blood supply to the balance centres in the cerebellum. I'm also going to have to see an ENT specialist again. Went through the whole ENT business once before, when I had my worst-ever attacks in my mid-40s - same time as I was going through the worst of the NTs and same reason, I suspect. The tests weren't pleasant in those days, but I'm told things have improved since then. I sincerely hope so, anyway. My sleep lab test (for sleep apnoea) is still on the back burner.

I agree with you that nothing is likely to show up on your MRI, but at least it will provide reassurance. I suspect the EEG probably won't show anything either. It rarely does in the case of NTs, but can occasionally point up a minor temporal lobe glitch in SP cases. (I've never had an EEG myself.) However, since there's a remote possibility of a convulsive element in your case, something might just show up. You know, don't you, that they'll flash lights in your eyes and ask you to carry out various tasks during the exam? It can take up to an hour, but at least you're not enclosed in anything.

Try and stay positive. Even if things aren't too good right now, it sounds to me as if they're a lot better than when you first posted here a couple of months ago.

Lily xx

Hi Lorraine,

How are you these days? Are you settling down on the new antidepressant now? I hope your sleep paralysis attacks aren't too bad at the moment. I haven't had a single one since the bad attack in London six weeks ago (says she, touching all the wood in sight!) In compensation, I seem to be having NTs at least once a night at the moment, but they're not serious at all - just the usual awakening, convinced there's something I have to do or some creature coming through the wall, then I realise it's not true and I'm back to sleep again in seconds.

Lily xx

Lily, you seem to have such a variety of issues you need to deal with, as ever you impress me with your resilience. at least I have just the one apparent issue that I need to deal with, coping with all fronts must be so much harder for you.

I know just a little about the EEG, just what I've read online, and it seems like a pretty simple routine, nothing that concerns me. The MRO today took me by surprise - my wife has had 3 of them for back issues and had no problem with them, hence I didn't even consider I would be "uncomfortable" with it. I was unpleasantly surprised, although nothing that's a problem.

The "good" thing is that I can generally know roughly what to expect from my nights, my NTs, or even just feelings of nervousness (during the night) are related to how I feel before I go to bed. I'm not sure that's always been the case, they used to surprise me, but these days they only seem to pop up if i'm not feeling strong/confident/stable.

On Friday I'm back into hospital again, this time for the surgeon to have a look at my multiple abdominal hernias and to make a decision on whether or not to operate. This makes me nervous, because if I have a full-blown NT after surgery, I'm going to rip myself apart. 

This raises a question: I don't feel physical pain during my NTs, even when aware of what's happening. When I tried to burrow through the carpet/floor using my face, i knew what I was doing (but couldn't stop it), but felt nothing when i was carpet-burning my face. Is this normal for NTs?

Sorry for my "mood" today, I'm just having a downer and, because I'm not used to feeling like this, I'm probably not really dealing with it as I should be. Today feels like a complete write-off, and I'm already half-resigned to having a bad night tonight, but tomorrow is a different day and I'm sure everything will be better.  And you're right, it's all much better than when I first posted, I just expected in my stubbornness and confidence that I would have successfully banished these stupid things already. Which I haven't. Clearly.

Rich xx

Hey richard

great to hear from you! Sorry you are still having NT. Funny when you mentioned shadow underneath your door. It rang like I was telling the same story! Glad your first test was oon. Please let us know about your next one ♥

Well Rich, some of it is just called "old age"! I'm afraid it comes to all of us in time.

That's actually an interesting comment about resilience, especially when tied in with your closing statement about stubbornness and confidence. I think a lot of it comes down to the difference between the sexes. It's well-known that men are physically much stronger than women, whereas women tend to have better stamina. (I'm talking generally here, there are always exceptions.) I think that extends into the mental realm too, where men are better at "firefighting" whereas female strength often lies in the daily grind of putting up with things and just getting on with it. Neither is superior - I'm no feminazi - but we're different. But there's nothing to stop either taking a page from the other's book. Women are sometimes forced by life to "man up", and there's nothing wrong with men getting in touch with their female side. I remain convinced that your understandable male desire to "beat this thing" might be exacerbating the attacks.

Yes, it's an interesting paradox that some of us experience excruciating pain in sleep paralysis attacks, when nothing is actually happening, while feeling no pain at all during night terrors, even when we're doing ourselves serious physical damage. I've reflected on that in the past. Just goes to show the power the mind has over the body. I was fortunate in that I didn't sustain too many injuries in my NT heyday. The fall in the kitchen was due to my tripping up in the dark and I came out of the NT the moment I hit the ground and felt the pain in my head. I did, however, injure the tendon in one shoulder during the furniture-moving episode, as well as clearly pushing my heart to the absolute limits of its capacity. And all without feeling anything till I came out of it. By the next morning every muscle in my body ached and I could hardly get out of bed.

Concerning the hernia op, I have a hunch that it might provide the intervention you need to break the pattern, at least temporarily. I'm wondering whether it will involve a night in hospital, but guessing probably not. In my day people were kept in for a whole week after hernia ops, but I gather it's often done as day surgery these days. In any case, if you do have to spend a night in hospital there's zero chance you'll have an attack there. Night terrors never occur in situations where people feel secure - including, unfortunately, sleep labs for the most part. Ditto for SP. Apnoea is different, as it's an entirely physical phenomenon over which the individual has no control, even at the unconscious level.

I'd say don't worry unnecessarily about harming yourself in the weeks following surgery, though it might be worth discussing it with your GP first - if you can get an appointment with the sympathetic one. The fact that you seem to have some degree of control over your actions during attacks reassures me. You could try discussing it with your surgeon too, perhaps with a view to having a resistant dressing applied, though my gut feeling (oops - no pun intended) is that that one would be doomed to failure. Most surgeons - even the better ones - are basically plumbers focused on their own particular speciality, with no concept of the human being as a complex entity. You must, however, discuss it with the anaesthetist, making sure he knows you're on clonazepam and why.

I hope you'll soon be back on your normal bullish form after this little blip. But hopefully not too bullish...

Lily xx

Hi lily ♥

Great to hear from you ♥

Had my message alreadyto send and my phone clicked off the site!

Sorry you have to endure bad nights every night! I am day 7 of no antidepressants. This hasn't helped with my horrible dreams! I had 3 days of unpleasant withdrawals, but today I am feeling like I am over the worst. So lovely to hear from you xx ♥

Sorry to hear you're having bad dreams, Lorraine, but I'm sure you know that's a normal symptom of withdrawal from antidepressants. All drugs of this class tend to suppress REM sleep, from which both dreams and sleep paralysis arise, so it's understandable you'd start having problems. However, one school of thought says that in the long-term we're better off having dreams than not, even if they're unpleasant, as they actually fulfil a necessary psychological function.

Thank you for your concern, but I'm happy to say I'm not having bad nights at all at the moment. I'm having unusually vivid dreams, but with the odd exception they're interesting rather than scary these days. No sleep paralysis with its painful hallucinations fortunately, just regular night terrors, or maybe I should say mini-terrors. They're so mild I hardly notice them. I just wake up every morning with memories of having sat bolt upright two or three times in the night, convinced I had to do something important, then crashing out again. Either that or my old friends the aliens coming through holes in the wall from another dimension, but they only last a few seconds too!

I hope you continue to improve and manage to start having more peaceful nights.

Lily xx

Thank you lily ♥

I love how you take these terrors in your stride! I start of saying with conviction (in my dream) "Im not scared" then scream like crazy because I'm scared lol! Speak soon♥ god bless x

Actually, I never did manage to take the Night Terrors in my stride when I was having maxi-attacks and trying to jump out of windows etc. 25 years ago! The baby ones I have now are no bother at all, as they don't last long enough to do any harm and I soon get back to sleep again.

I fully understand the problems you're having with Sleep Paralysis. I know it's hard, but try to stay as calm as possible. I usually manage it these days, but not always - particularly when I get attacks in the early part of the night, when I'm still deeply asleep. There's a theory that panicking in this kind of attack further stimulates the limbic system deep in the brain stem, which is involved in producing attacks in the first place.

As I've said before, I've learned over the years to stay as calm as possible - which I accept can be difficult if you feel you're being eaten alive or something similar! - and reassure my "aggressor". Sounds bizarre, I know, but I got this advice from a psychologist on the SP counselling website I was on 15 years ago and have used it successfully ever since. He was a fellow sufferer. He said we were being attacked by our own id (check out Freud) which is in fact a rather feeble, whiny creature. As soon as I realise what's happening, I start saying: "It's all right, I like you" and try to grab "it's" hands or claws - if I can find them - with my own "dream hands". Obviously, you can't move your real hands in this state. Then I concentrate on trying to wiggle my real finger-tips or the tip of my tongue, which will usually get me out of the paralysis. The trick then is to sit up immediately, even if you feel you're being held down by lead weights and sucked back into sleep. If you give into this, you can end up by going straight back into an attack.

And do keep a journal to try and identify your triggers. We're actually luckier than poor old Rich, as SP is far more trigger-related than NTs, therefore easier to avoid. How did the not eating after 6pm go, btw? Any improvement? What/when I eat makes no difference, but I know this works for some people. My all-time main trigger is getting too hot in the night, which can be addressed.

Hang in there. I know it's not pleasant being mugged by your own unconscious night after night, but it usually improves with time.

Lily you are fab!

Your knowledge is not only extensive, you relay it in a way that I can grasp. I am going to follow your tips and will let you know how I go!

Much love and appreciation ♥

Hi Rich

Lily and I are wondering how you are getting on?

Look forward to hearing from you with all your latest news.

We are thinking of you ♥

God bless xx

Well, it all sounds quite positive to me!

I was practically certain your MRI and EEG would be OK, but it's still reassuring to have that knowledge. Glad to hear you've been able to get off the meds with no undue effects. And not surprised to hear the terrors are getting less frequent and more manageable. This is par for the course once you start getting used to them. With both sleep paralysis and NTs, anxiety about having another attack is one of the main triggers.

I'll be interested to hear the outcome of the visit to the sleep lab too - though I suspect that will be negative, as very few people actually manifest sleep disorders other than apnoea in a sleep lab. Probably something to do with the feeling of security. Still awaiting my own date for the sleep lab to establish how serious my apnoea is. I've never discussed the NTs or SP with my current doctor, as I manage them with no serious problems. It's just possible, however, that my SP may show up in an altered distribution of my REM/non-REM sleep periods, even if I don't have an attack.

Can't say I'd ever heard of sleep apnoea being associated with NTs, though there is a known link with SP. Are you still coughing as much during the night? I won't suggest the remedy for that as I'm sure you already know it...

My own mini-NTs go on apace, but this is because I'm under quite a lot of stress at the moment. But I don't actually get out of bed so I'm not at risk.

Had another SP attack during my last London visit two weeks ago. Like the one in December, I think it was due to getting too hot, though at least alcohol wasn't involved in this one. Also like the December attack, it happened early in the night when I was deeply asleep, so didn't come to my senses in time to realise what was going on.

It was actually quite embarrassing. Make that terminally embarrassing. The military club I stay at has a few family suites, with a single room only lightly partitioned off from a double. They often let the two rooms out separately, locking the connecting door, and I was in one of them on this visit, which I hate. You can even hear normal breathing on the other side of the partition and it feels like sharing a room with an invisible stranger.

So... Yours Truly throws one almighty squawking, screaming fit around 1am, which goes on for several minutes. The guy on the other side started hammering on the partition, trying to open the connecting door, asking whether I was all right. I could hear all this but still couldn't move or stop myself making this awful noise. It's not quite a scream, as the vocal cords are partly paralysed too in this state, more of a squawk. (I'm sure Lorraine knows all about that one.) By the time I broke out of it, he was out in the corridor, banging on the room door. I peered round it very sheepishly, apologising for having had a "nightmare" but could see he was worried there might be someone in the room with me, threatening me. He was just a young squaddie - a nice, concerned lad. I ended up having to let him in to let him check the room - wardrobe, bathroom etc. - to reassure him I was really alone. Ah, the joys of sleep disorders in public places...

Try and hang on to your sense of humour, Rich. It helps a lot. You'll probably never be entirely free of the NTs but they will subside to manageable levels.

Lily xx

Hey Lily!

Sorry to hear about your episode in London, and even though it must have been embarrassing, I'm glad you had a nice squaddie next door - at least his attention must have taken your focus elsewhere (which has to be a good thing). I was hugely embarrassed to have one of my episodes in front of my wife and daughter (the smashing up the bathroom and crying like a baby one), so... well, you poor thing xx

I've done some online research, and also spoken unofficially with a senior person at the Sleep Clinic (close friend of a close friend), and NT's are not uncommonly caused by Sleep Apnoea, it's not exactly normal, but certainly not unheard of.

And the cough syncope makes perfect sense, although brings forward a massive concern if a bad coughing fit knocks me out (and into a form of NT) - this scenario has happened twice when awake (or at least semi-awake) and questions whether or not I should still be behind the wheel of a car. My contact at the Sleep Clinic also expressed concerns about whether I should be driving still.

I am usually quite positive about all of this, but because I had the appointment this morning with the neurologist (not a very nice man, no bedside manner at all, we didn't click and I had a "bit of a go" at him for dismissing one of my opinions), it's really at the forefront of my mind and has brought me down a little. By this evening I'll be back to my usual boorish self!

Rich xx

Sounds as if the next move is going to be looking into why you suffer from cough syncope. I'm sure you'll have researched it and know it can be associated with COPD. I know we have our little jokes about stopping smoking but, seriously, do you think it might be time to start addressing this issue? It would be too bad for someone in your position if you were unable to drive any more.

Totally sympathise about the behaviour of some doctors. I don't think it's quite as bad as it was when I was in the business 50 years ago, but some of them still seem to think they're gods. Good for you for having a go at him!

I can understand your embarrassment about having an attack in front of your wife, and especially your daughter. This kind of thing can be difficult for men to handle. I, on the other hand, was able to play the Old Lady card!

Yeah, I know you're probably right Lily, but smoking is the one vice left in my life.... but yeah... ok, I'll switch to ecigs during my hours, I already have one but don't often use it, and if I don't smoke normal ciggies at work it will cut down my smoking by around 60%. Deal. (it's MY business, I smoke when I want )

COPD - step by step, I'll see if the sleep clinic want to get that checked out, it's on my "list".

And tomorrow I've got another CT scan for my abdominal hernias. I need to avoid surgery for this, so will have to lose weight, probably at least 10-15 kilos, so this weight-loss will also help my sleep apnoea etc.

I wouldn't work for you, I value my lungs too much! Seriously, with my childhood history, I was never tempted to smoke and have always tried to avoid the second-hand variety. Alcohol, of course, is another matter... Particularly wine. It's still relatively cheap here, so I can indulge in the reasonably good stuff. I don't know how I'd cope if I was told I couldn't drink any more. By which I mean being told by a proper doctor and not all these nannying pundits in the UK who try to scare the life out of us all! I recently took two on-line tests on drinking habits. The British one said I had a serious alcohol problem and needed to stop immediately, whereas the Belgian one said I was a responsible drinker!

But the e-cig does sound like a good idea for you. Not to mention your kippered employees.

Weight loss is another obvious one. I looked up cough syncope on the Med link site and found the following statement (which I hope I'll get away with recycling as it's very short).

"Cough syncope patients are predominantly muscular, obese, middle-aged men who are current or ex-smokers and tend to overindulge in alcohol."

And

"Smoking cessation is closely associated with decreased symptoms and should be strongly encouraged."

Good to hear that you're trying to avoid surgery for your abdominal hernias. A smoker's cough won't help them either, but I'm sure you don't want to hear that! And yes, weight loss should theoretically help with the sleep apnoea, though in my case losing 10kg didn't seem to make much difference - hence the upcoming trip to the sleep lab.

I hate to say this, but I'm afraid you're starting to face the various problems of ageing. I know it's a shock when it first hits you, but you get used to it after a while. You worry a bit in your 50s and 60s but once you get into your 70s you start appreciating the fact that you're still alive!

Hi Lily

poor you on reading your message to Richard, I pictured your whole event unfolding! I imagine you hoped to avoid eye contact at breakfast lol. It's so hard for others to understand. I haven't had any in a few days. I am still getting protracted withdrawal symptoms from my antidepressant. I thought they would come thick and fast but thankfully they haven't. Hope you are otherwise well Lily ♥♥

Hi Lorraine,

So glad your withdrawal from antidepressants isn't too awful. It's never easy but not everyone suffers terribly. I hope your SP attacks aren't getting any worse as a result of stopping the meds. Sounds as if they're not too bad if you haven't had any for a few days.

Oh, I didn't go down to breakfast that morning! I ate an orange I'd got in my room, made myself a cup of tea then slunk off to the nearby M&S café for another cuppa and a bun. That's two visits running I've screamed the place down, though fortunately I was in a properly sound-proofed room the first time round so I don't think anybody heard me. If I keep this up they'll cancel my membership!

 

How are you doing Rich? I hope the NTs are continuing to improve. I'm not having as many of my mini-NTs these days, though had another SP squawking fit the other night. Usual problem - getting too hot in my sleep. Goodness knows what the neighbours think!

Hi Richard

Lily and I have been thinking about you and we really hope things have improved for you.

When you get time please let us know how you are doing ♥♥♥♥

God bless X