P.I.P. Tribunal hearing.
Posted , 13 users are following.
I have just spent the best part of a year going through the whole P.I.P. process, which included the application form, and the face to face assessment, which was a farce as the assessor totally twisted everything I said and made up or lied about crucial points. He said he carried out a physical examination which he didn't. The outcome of this was that I was awarded the standard rate of P.I.P. for both components even though I was on both the high rates of DLA previously. Needless to say I was very upset about this, especially about the unfair assessment which was in fact was carried out by a nurse with no specialist training or understanding of a complex illness. Also the fact that the DWP didn't contact my GP for any medical history, and relied solely on the dodgy assessment was very worrying.
Consequently, I applied for a mandatory reconsideration which is the next procedure. This was then refused by the DWP, and I then appealed to the tribunal. My post today is regarding my tribunal experience, which took place this morning.
After a year of fighting and the stress and upset this has caused, the tribunal this morning was without doubt the most horrendous experience I think I have ever gone through since my illness began about 20 years ago. The tribunal consisted of three people, a doctor, a judge, and a disability specialist in daily living. They proceeded to systematically go through my whole claim and attempted to humiliate me. They questioned me for 45 minutes on every aspect of my claim. Their questioning was aggressive and intimidating, and they constantly went back trying to trip me up in some way. After the doctor had finished questioning me, he sat for the rest of the time with a smirk on his face which was very intimidating and unsettling. They managed to make me feel a complete fool and worthless. I went into the tribunal fairly confident that I could put my case across fairly and persuade them to award me the enhanced rates after all, but I came out feeling demoralised and not knowing if I would keep my award at all. Apart from my physical disabilities I have suffered from anxiety and depression for many years. I went into this tribunal at least being able to speak coherently, but I came out stuttering, which I have never done in my life. My daughter, who is my carer and who was with me this morning, was devastated by my treatment, but was told by the judge not to speak or interrupt or prompt me at any stage as the tribunal was about me and not her. I don't hold out much hope of a successful conclusion for me, but I just wanted to at least let other people know what may be in store for them if this is in fact the normal way a tribunal operates. Has this happened to anyone else ?
Still trying to recover at this point.
1 like, 37 replies
Governor steven02441
Posted
Asking around it seems as though the assessment is exactly the same for everyone, even someone without a leg would be passed. Today I have written to my MP deploring the way the PIP is run and that they should try going through all the forms only to be turned down. This does have a mental effect on people.
Good Luck just keep on fighting. Next time I am going to slip in a recorder so that other people can hear what is said.
steven02441 Governor
Posted
Good idea about the recorder. Someone should expose what actually goes on.
julie_48916 steven02441
Posted
So sorry to hear you had such an awful experience. You will find on the paperwork you receive from the tribunal with what they have awarded you. A page asking if you are not happy with the outcome. And what to do if your not.
My tribunal was in June and my mum was with me. She Was my representative and they boy only allowed her to speak, but asked her many questions. I was awarded enhanced rate for both daily living and mobility. And they Informed me straight away.
As you were not given the outcome there and then. I hope you receive good news when you do hear.. fingers crossed. Good luck.
steven02441 julie_48916
Posted
Thank you for your reply. Yes I will keep my fingers crossed, not hopeful though. Thanks again.
Bobsyuncle steven02441
Posted
This sounds totally horrendous Steven. I really hope you get a successful outcome after what you went through.
My husband is waiting to go to tribunal. I am now very concerned as he was being represented by the British Legion. I wonder now if they will allow this. My husband won't cope well with All the questions he already feels his integrity is being doubted and will become frustrated. I am now so worried for him.
steven02441 Bobsyuncle
Posted
Hi Bobsyuncle,
I'm so sorry to hear about your husband, and I do hope that things go well for him. I feel exactly the same. My integrity has been questioned and I've been made to feel as though I've done something wrong. This whole process is very suspect. Thanks again for your kind words, and good luck to your husband.
patricia04797 steven02441
Posted
Sorry this has happened to you. I went through a similar process with the tribunal and wasn't given anything. The Disability Advisor was like something out of the Gestapo and the judge was deaf, but the doctor was OK. Afterwards I went to the toilet (got active Crohn's Disease!) so I had to pass the room I'd been in and I heard raised voices when they were discussing my case, so there was obviously some disagreement going on. Still, the DA won.
I applied again straightaway, had a continuous argument with DWP/PIP over a wee or so about attending an assessment, which I refused to do because I wasn't well enough to do an 80 mile round trip. To cut a long story short (it's in the forum somewhere!) I ended up writing a formal letter of complaint because I was so angry with the whole system. A few weeks later I received a paper based assessment over the phone. They bent over backwards to give me an award, which I got and it was backdated several months.
Just goes to show, if you really fight back, you can win although you wonder if it's really worth it sometimes.
Best wishes.
steven02441 patricia04797
Posted
Hi Patricia,
Thank you for your message. I'm also sorry you had a bad experience too. It seems as though this is the norm.
Got my letter this morning. My appeal was refused, but thankfully my original award still stands, so no points were taken from me. Yes I am vey disappointed because they have completely ignored my serious misgivings about the lies and false statements made at the face to face assessment, but also relieved that I haven't lost the award altogether. I'm back where I started. I don't feel that it was worth the trauma that they put me through yesterday. I probably won't pursue this any further as the stress this whole thing causes is too much, which probably what they want all along. The more people they can get off of this benefit the better for their figures no matter how it impacts the claimant. Thanks anyway for your message.
Steve.
denise15811 steven02441
Posted
I'm sorry to hear your Tribunal decison didn't go in your favour. As you said though, at least you didn't lose any points.
Unfortunately to be able to appeal this to the upper Tribunal you must now ask for the Statement of Reasons and you have 1 month in which to do this. Then you must find an error in law in making the decison the Tribunal made. This is extremely difficult to do and you will need expert advice for this. There's lawyers out the that will help with this but as i said it's extremely rare and difficult to prove. It's also an even longer process than the first Tribunal. Good luck with whatever you decide.
patricia04797 steven02441
Posted
Sorry, that's meant to be "a WEEK or so"
wendy17594 steven02441
Posted
I'm really sorry to hear you've had such a bad experience. I've not heard anything like this before about humiliating treatment at these proceedings. If it was actually that bad then I would say you need to contact your MP to complain.
However, don't take this the wrong way but when you or anyone get so immersed in a situation like this for so long its hard to keep paranoia from clouding your perceptions.
I hope you get the result you want but the criteria for PIP are very different to DLA. PIP focuses purely on how the health issues I'm p act on the claimants daily life/ability to carry out certain activities. DLA just required proof the illness/disability existed.
Personally I get nothing for mobility even though I get 4 points for inability to walk 200 metres I get no points because I could plan a journey if I needed to, even though I l back the confidence to plan an unfamiliar journey and wouldn't do it. As the law stands sadly they are right. Previously I would have had points for not being able to Hoover, clean or do the ironing, now there are no points.
Sadly in many cases the legislation needs challenging not the decision based on that law.
I'm sure that's not what you want to hear but it is true.
Wishing you a 'll the best.
Wendy x
susan556 wendy17594
Posted
Hi Wendy i dont understand when you say "Previously I would have had points for not being able to Hoover, clean or do the ironing, now there are no points." if you find it difficult to do these things then surely this is showing how your health problem affects you? Why is it no longer counted as scoring points? I have M.E. and im seriously considering not even bothering to apply for PIP at all when the letters arrives inviting me to do so.Also it think the walking distance has been shortened to 50 meters now hasn't?
Sue x
wendy17594 susan556
Posted
Hi Sue
Unfortunately the PIP rules mean there are no points available for not being able to do those things but there were under DLA.
It doesn't seem fair to those of us effected but its one of the big changes, it's no longer what is wrong but how it effects your daily life in terms of caring for yourself e.g. showering, bathing, dressing managing medication. You're right it is now only 50 metres walking which I can't do but I can plan a journey hence 4 points only and no mobility award, I'm just happy and surprised I got the standard daily living . Take care Wendy
denise15811 susan556
Posted
The walking distance for Enhanced mobility PIP is 20 metres or less. For DLA is was 50 metres or less. The walking distance for standard mobility is netween 20-50 metres. As i said before Susan, PIP isn't about a diagnosis, so try to put yours to one side when thinking about PIP. It's about how your conditions affect you daily.
I will again seriously advice you to do some research for PIP because there seems to be a lot that you don't understand. Start by googling PIP self test, complete that test and see what points you score. This will give you some idea. Then focus your evidence around those descriptors.
susan556 denise15811
Posted
Thanks Denise for that info, yes i have used the self diagnose PIP test and not good.I also helped hubby fill in his before his assessment and he came out with standard rate but had a nice assessor which was good. He lost out on the higher mobility by 2 points because the walking distance wasn't put down accurately but never questioned this as we didn't wanted to risk losing it all and standard rate is certainly better than nothing at all.
Is it true if you turn up at your assessment with your makeup on and your hair done your more than likely to score less points and can i ask for a home visit without a drs letter.?
Oh if only it was like applying for the DLA which i got for my hubby in the end after 3 years because our gp let us down, it wasn't until we went to the 2ncd tribunal and got to see the paper work we see what he wrote down! No wonder he got refused! But it was worth it as back then it was awarded indefinitely.
Thanks Denise for all your help your giving hear to us all, much appreciated
Sue
denise15811 susan556
Posted
No problem Susan,
No it's not true about the assessments and make up. When you go to these assessments just be yourself. If you wear make up then wear it, if you don't then don't wear it.
For a home assessment a Drs letter will most likely be needed stating the reasons when you can't attend their assessment centre. Sometimes if enough of evidence is given to support your claim then they'll agree to a home assessment without a DRs letter. My daughter didn't need a DRs letter when she had her home assessment but i did send in over 50 A4 pages of evidence relating to all the PIP descriptors that applied to her.
There's really no harm in start the PIP claim off when the time comes. If you don't start it off then you'll never know what could have been and you'll probably always wonder why. Even though the PIP self test wasn't good for you. Did you score any points with the self test? Remember you need at least points for an award.
Firebird23 denise15811
Posted
Hi Denise,
I'm filling in my PIP claim form at the moment, and have been very interested to read all your advice on this forum, thanks for helping others like this!
I am struggling through complete autistic burnout at the moment (ongoing for the last 18 months), and am finding the PIP process a little daunting. I read above about all the evidence you sent in for your daughter's claim, I have written plenty about how my condition affects me on a daily basis, but I am concerned that I don't really have any evidence to send in apart from my letter of diagnosis, which only states that I have been diagnosed as autistic... Do you have any advice about the sort of thing I might be able to use? I have a statement of fitness for work from the doctor saying I'm unfit for work, at the moment each note is dated for one month, at which point I have to get a new one. (I got this primarily for my ESA claim.) Would this be a useful thing to send? I worry slightly about the fact that it's only for one month... I don't really have anything else other than this, and I feel like it's not going to be enough. I want to send as much as possible. I'd really appreciate any advice you (or anyone else) might have on this, as I just don't know what sort of things I should be looking for to send!
Thanks!
denise15811 Firebird23
Posted
Hi Firebird,
Thanks for those kind words!
Yes, it's very daunting. PIP isn't about a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect you daily. The diagnosis letter isn't the greatest evidence and really won't help but as you have it, then send it. I'm afraid the fitnote won't help you for a PIP claim. PIP isn't about working, as people claim PIP and work. A fitnote is needed for ESA but not PIP.
Types of evidence that are good are as follows. Any medical reports that your GP has from past appointments, letter from GP stating how your condition affects you daily, a diary written by yourself, a letter from someone that knows you well, Consultant or Social Worker reports, print out of all current medication.
Have you done the PIP self test online? If not then google PIP self test and it will come up. This is a guideline only but it will give you some idea what PIP is all about.
PIP is about budgeting your money, washing/dressing/undressing, cooking meals, communicating, managing therapy, following and planning a journey, mobility etc... evidence should be related to those descriptors to prove that you have that difficulty.
Most people have an assessment for this, it's rare to be awarded with a paper based decision. There's no timescales a to how long you'll have to wait, it all depends on the backlog in your area. Are you transfering from DLA?
Good luck.
Firebird23 denise15811
Posted
Thanks for your help Denise! I'm not transferring, this is a new claim, so it's all a bit confusing, especially with my executive dysfunction...
I will try to get something from my GP, do you know if it's likely that I'll have to pay for a letter or past medical reports? Will a letter from my mother be accepted? I haven't kept a diary at all, will anything I write now be considered as evidence? Sorry for all the questions!
I have previously spoken with someone who works for an autism charity about the PIP claim, she did explain it to me and gave me a print out with the descriptors and the points they are worth, and I can certainly score myself over 12 points for the daily living component from that, but it's just finding any evidence other than my own descriptions that I'm struggling with.
Thanks so much for your help!
wendy17594 Firebird23
Posted
A doctor will use their discretion when charging for a letter so it depends on your GP.
As letter from your mother who knows you well can help do long as it focus on how your condition effects you in relation to your daily life per the descriptors. The same goes for any diary you can start now and chronicle a typical day or week depending how long you have until the meeting.
I would make sure you listen closely to all the questions and take your time answering giving as much information as possible about your difficulties.
Also take a copy of your claim form with you if you kept one for reference.
Take care
Wendy c