PIP Review

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Hi

I had my PIP award, 8 points for daily living and 4 for mobility. The health professional ( so called???) lied about my movement etc. Question is if I went for a Mandatory review could I lose the 8 points I have? At the moment at least I have something.

 

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26 Replies

  • Posted

    You hear so many tales of assessors bending the truth a bit (and I'm being kind here)  

    If you know someone has not been truthful about your movements then I can understand that it would make you want to have a review, but I suppose it is a bit of a risk.

    I was lucky with my assessment so it's not easy for me to advise you, but I'm sure there are a few on here who will reply to you.  Good luck whatever you decide. x

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  • Posted

    I suppose it depends on how confident you are regarding your health issues, if you don't mind me asking what they are, gives us a better insight into whether to tell you to appeal or not.

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    • Posted

      Hi

      Thanks to everyone who has replied. The HP stated  I had full movement in my right arm and neck, so I could wash my hair and back with one arm. I submitted a letter from two specialists and a MRI that stated I have severe osetoarthritis in my left arm, moderate in my right. Impingement in both shoulders, a torn tendon in my right shoulder with bursitis and tendonitis . I have had disc replacement in my neck and degenerated discs. Carpal tunnel in both hands. I have fibromyalgia, insominia, Nocturia, chronic venous insuffciency. Chronic fatique and and aniexty.. All medicallly backed up. What do you think?

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  • Posted

    for me the question is are you now worse off financially, better or the same? if worse then I supposed I'd go for it. (easy for me say) if the same or better, why bother? I don't claim to know all about pip, but sounds like you've enough points to be the same financially. hope so. no doubt someone will correct me. anyway good luck.all the best.

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  • Posted

    Yes you can. I was told that the panel would look at it as new claim therefore I could lose the mobility I had as well as not being successful with the care side. If you've got enough evidence you should be ok.

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  • Posted

    Hi Pamela

    We often see posters whose expectations at assessment have not been met. They immediately shout that the HCP has ‘lied’.

    You need to get things into perspective before requesting an MR. The healthcare professional has not ‘lied’ s/he has given an ‘opinion’ which of course can be a very bad opinion and completely wrong.

    If in the MR you make claims that the HCP has lied you undermine yourself. Firstly it work both ways in that if s/he lied about your movements then they may have also lied about your care needs and the 8 points could be taken away.

    Also when you accuse them of lying you change the burden of proof from ‘balance of probabilities’ to ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ because are accusing the HCP of maliciously trying to defraud you of benefit. Trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the HCP has lied is next to impossible.

    However, adopt the position that you ‘believe the ‘opinion’ is wrong’ and you can challenge it by using the balance of probabilities. You do this by explaining why the opinion is wrong by referring to any medical evidence supplied and anything declared on the PIP2 form. The PIP2 form has a declaration of truth at the end of the form which you should draw the decision maker’s attention to and also stating that the HCP has mealy given an opinion which doesn’t carry the weight of a signed declaration.

    You can also send in additional evidence including signed statements from anyone who provides personal care (such as a partner, friend or relative) stating that your movements are not as good as the HCP opinion states.

    Even if the MR fails you would have laid the ground for an appeal to a Tribunal.

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    • Posted

      Hi, As ever an excellent reply.

      ?Just one thing and I agree what you say about the declaration on the PIP2, is it not the case that everyone has to sign that document whether they exaggerate, are truthful or claim when there is no basis at all of any disability?

      ?I have yet to hear of one prosecution either via the DWP using their powers or under the Perjury Act where it has been found that what was claimed was thrown out by a Tribunal.

      ?Consquently, I would imagine that the DWP don't take what is reported on the PIP2 as entirely truthful in all or most cases unless it is backed up with good quality evidence.

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    • Posted

      Hi Les

      Fair comment but when push comes to shove I believe in using all the tools in the shed. A signed PIP2 form is a declaration of truth and would in any court carry more weight than someone who just offerred an 'opinion' without backing it up as a statement of truth.

      This is something which is not utilised enough in benefit appeals IMO. I have used it previously but I can't say for sure whether it was the tipping point or not, but as Tesco say 'every little helps'

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    • Posted

      excuss my ignorance but what is a PIP2? Are you referring to the PIP assessment with the health professional, as I didn't sign anything.

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    • Posted

      Hi

      Thanks for your post. You are right. Sometimes I think you just get so angry, you have a 'knee jerk' reaction. Your post has probably stopped me from making mistakes.

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    • Posted

      Without stating the obvious in that the PIP2 must always be completed fully, all PIP2's must be signed as being the truth.

      ?Yes it is a tool, but I question as to how much weight should be given to it as evidence by the DWP. I agree it should be treated as prime evidence,and should weigh heavier than an opinion.

      However in the real world you have to consider how the DWP view things.

      ?Their instructions are biased towards refusing a claim that is unless you can convince them by the PIP2 and evidence that on balance they should make an award.

      ?The whole principle of making a claim using a signed declaration should be that the DWP must accept it's validity unless they can show on balance that what is claimed is not true.

      ?A subtle move to put the onus on the claimant to prove what they are declaring.

      ?I would have loved to have had the opportunity of putting that to a test at a tribunal.

      'Look here is a PIP2 with a signed declaration and here is some evidence that backs up what I have written on that form. Here also is an opinion of someone employed by the DWP that suggests that the contents of the PIP2 are exaggerations at best and lies at worst. Which evidence should weigh heavier?.As I am here having to prove on balance that what I have put on the PIP2 is the whole truth, where is this DWP contractor? And why aren't they here to support and argue that their opinion is the truth?'

      ?However in the grand scheme of things we have to work to the DWP rules and their warped opinion of what the law should be saying. So yes even though it is totally unfair we  must jump to their tune if you want the right decision first time round.

       

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    • Posted

      Les that would have been an interesting Tribunal lol.All I can add is that I have read DWP guidelines and the PIP2 form is considered the main body of evidence given by the claimant but would agree a claimant would need further supporting evidence to be sure of success.

      However, when I have helped claimants with MR's I have always included the fact that the claimant has signed a declaration of truth on the form which they (the DWP) consider the main body of evidence.

      I have then used any supporting evidence to argue the balance of probabilities is tipped in the direction of the claimant. The DWP may not want to put much weight on the PIP2 declaration but when faced with losing at a Tribunal because of the balance of probabilities they will back down.

      It's a well tested poly which has a very high success rate. But of course the PIP2 form on its own with no supporting medical evidence is a difficult one, but I have known rare cases where even they have succeeded.

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    • Posted

      As Les stated when you applied for PIP they sent you a form which you filled in informing the HCP of your difficulties. That is the PIP2 form. It is very important that you put down in great detail what personal care you receive or what mobility problems are.

      Many claimants make the huge mistake of just relying on their medical evidence and how they look when assessed. That will end in failure because if you don't put in writing what your personal care is then you are signing a declaration stating you don't receive any and will be assessed as that.

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    • Posted

      Hi Anthony

      Hope you don't mind me coming back with another question. I am taking your advise about my MR. One question . It is very difficult to state a couple of issues without saying the assessor lied. She stated I moved my neck and arm fully, but I actually refused to do this because of pain. This isn't a bad opinion this is a fact, so if I state that it will automatically say she is lying.Any advise welcome. Also when they review what do they tend to take into account the most the PIP2, the HP report or medical evidence?

      Thanks for your great replys they have been really helpful.

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    • Posted

      Can I jump in?

      She stated I moved my neck and arm fully, but I actually refused to do this because of pain.

      There are two alternative answers for this statement.

      ?The first is that you may well of refused specifically to do the test BUT throughout the assessment your body language and movements would have been quietly noted by the assessor. It may well be that some movements that you carried out unintentionally gave the impression to the assessor that despite your saying that you can't do that you actually did it without realising it.

      ?The second answer could be as simple as the assessor not believing you and taking the view that you could if you wanted to.

      ?They SHOULD take into account ALLof the evidence including the PIP2. However there is always going to be a bias from the DWP's point of view that the HCP report is the more likely to be the most accurate piece of evidence

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    • Posted

      Hi Les. Thanks for that. I do have medical evidence including a MRI that shows this is impossible as I have oestoarthritis, impingement, tendonitis, bursitis and a torn tendon in my right shoulder. You can't really fake a MRI so would this not be considered? 

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    • Posted

      Of course it would/should be considered. However despite what the scans show and the diagnosis given, it is up to you to explain/show/demonstrate/evidence how these affect your abilities and what descriptor you are relying on. It's not enough to just hand over a MRI report or a letter detailing what is wrong with you - you have to demonstrate to the DWP why the assessors opinion is wrong.

      ?I fell into this trap once and assumed that anybody with an ounce of medical knowledge would understand what a particular scan report/consultants diagnosis would mean to how debilitating the medical issue was. They simply ignored it because I failed to prove how it affected me and why.

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    • Posted

      I even made an error when completing the ESA50 form back in Sept 09 in that I only detailed how the difficulties I faced were created due to the one particular medical problem that was shown on my sick note. I ignored everything else believing that I could only claim for the reason that the GP had signed me off work for. The ESA50 was very unclear on this. However they then changed the ESA50 form to say that you should include all medical issues even though only one was on the sick note.
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    • Posted

      I understand what you are saying here, but I thought I had demonstarted it by explaining to the HP that I could not make that movement, and refusing to do it. I am new to this and am finding it so frustarting and overwhelming. Rather than appeal I feel like giving up, because to be honest it's just a matter of have what you're given.

      Thank you for your replies I do really appreciate it.

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    • Posted

      Hi Pamela

      Got the idea of your problem.

      In your MR state that you are a bit confused about the HCP opinion that you moved your neck and arm without any problems at the assessment. This is because when asked to perform the movements you explained that you couldn't perform such movements due to the physical problems you have. At that point refer to the medical evidence (identify it by date hospital and consultant) and state the results which were

      "MRI that shows this is impossible as I have osteoarthritis, impingement, tendonitis, bursitis and a torn tendon in my right shoulder"

      Then conclude by saying that on the balance of probabilities this would indicate that my version is more accurate than the HCP and I am confident a Tribunal would agree.

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    • Posted

      hi Anthony.

      ive read your answers with much interest, but I have to say in different answers to different questions you refer to "balance of probabilities". with all due respect to some readers (myself included) I have no idea what you mean by balance of probabilities.how do I transfer that statement into the "real " world of the unconquerable DWP?

      many thanks, best wishes ivan.

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    • Posted

      Thank you Anthony. I am just so frightened to appeal in case they take away my 8 points, but I know I'm entitled to more. I have held off for years making this claim but now got to the point where my husband is struggling to work and care for me and I sit there in tears because I feel useless. We could both do with some help. 

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    • Posted

      Hi Pamela

      I can’t say for definite that the DWP wouldn’t take away the 8 points if you appealed. What I can say is that they would need a dam good reason to do so. If you have medical evidence like you claim then it is hard to see how they could justify doing so and despite what we all think sometimes they don’t normally act out of vindictiveness, not unless your name is Les that is! (long story).

      If you appeal keep your words professional and deal with facts not fantasy. You will be OK and best of luck.

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    • Posted

      Hi Ivan

      You make a fair point the ‘balance of probabilities’ is a technical term and refers to the Civil Court burden of proof which applies to benefit claims.

      What does it mean? OK you have heard the expression ‘it would be my word against theirs’ when it comes to a dispute? This is the balance of probabilities in action because both sides have the same weight to their argument.

      So in a Civil dispute (not criminal which much higher ‘beyond reasonable doubt’) the idea is to ‘tip’ the balance in your favour. Pamela has the classic example of how it works in benefit applications. The HCP writes a report stating that she moved her right arm contrary to what she had explained on her PIP2 form. It is Pamela’s word against the HCP.

      However, the ‘word’ of the HCP would carry more weight than Pamela’s because she is a supposed medical professional so at this point the balance of probabilities are against Pamela. To counter this Pamela has medical evidence that it would be very difficult for her to have performed such a movement and even if she did it would be in great pain. The consultant’s word and the MRI results would carry more weight than the HCP so the balance of probabilities would swing back into Pamela’s favour.

      Whoever has the balance of probabilities in their favour wins although is up to the Claimant in both Civil and benefit claims to prove their case on the balance of probabilities, if it ends in a draw then the Respondent (the defendant) or in benefit claims the DWP win.

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