Should I have a prostate biopsy?
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Introduction
I’m 70 and have a PSA which was at 4.6 when I was 66, and while it has been regularly monitored over the past 18 months or so has been moving up and down between 6 and 7. My doctor thought that I should be referred and I have had two hpital appointments, but I have so far decided against having a prostate biopsy, though it is obvious that my local hospital’s oncology department would like me to have one. The health worker I saw at my first hospital appointment was happy to discuss the issue with me, but I suspect the consultant I just saw probably thought I should stop wasting his time and get booked in for a biopsy without further delay.
I have received information from those two appointments, but I have obtained much more information from online research. Based on studying a number of online medical reports over the period 2008 – 2014, it is evident that there is increasing prejudice, at least in the US and Australia, against the use of prostate biopsies. The primary reasons for this seem to be an increasing risk of serious infections from the most common type of biopsy, a growing recognition (though this may be controversial) that psa screening and biopsies are ineffective in reducing the incidence of terminal prostate cancer, and that screening and biopsies contribute to massive ‘over treatment’ of prostate cancers
Summary of Statistics (some of which may be controversial but all of which are based on (my interpretation of) studies published in urological journals, research reviews and conference speeches by leading urologists).
Of every 100 men who have a prostate biopsy:
· 97 didn’t need it (that is, they don’t have a prostate cancer requiring treatment)
· 6 will get a serious infection as a result (a figure which has doubled in recent years), which will cause them to be hospitalised, and from which a very occasional man will die, while others (we don’t know how many) will have persistent painful side effects
· between 17 and 22 will be offered treatment that they don’t need, as a result of which about 25% of men in their 70s will become incontinent or impotent.
The Perceived Indicators for Biopsy
Primarily a raised psa; a psa which has increased rapidly over a fairly short period, typically a year; smoking; family history of prostate cancer; age (considered with the other factors). I have a raised psa, but it’s not dramatically high – it’s been between 6 and 7 over the past 1 ½ years, and it has not increased dramatically – it was 4.6 five years ago. I do smoke, and I am 70, but I am generally in good health, and there is no history of prostate cancer in my family that I know of.
Statistics Based on Recent Urological Papers
Of every 100 men who have a biopsy, between 75 and 80 have no cancerous cells and didn’t need the procedure; 20 to 25 will have cancerous cells found on biopsy BUT a large percentage of these men will have a tumour which develops very slowly, will not be terminal and doesn’t really need any treatment. Only a small percentage will have an aggressive tumour requiring immediate intervention; the Harvard School of Public Health, in a 2014 paper, put this percentage at 10 – 15%, or 3 men out of the 100.
This means only 3 out of every 100 men who have a biopsy really needed it. And there are two other real concerns.
1. The one certainty with prostate biopsies is that 100% of the men who have them will have ‘side effects’. Some will be shortlived and not really a problem, but some will be painful and longer lasting, and some men, currently about 6 out of the 100, will be hospitalised with serious infections, and the very occasional one will die. There are no statistics for the number of men receiving treatment for post-biopsy infections at doctors’ surgeries. I don’t necessarily see this as a reason not to have a biopsy, because obviously if you really need a biopsy to diagnose a terminal cancer then it’s worth putting up with the side effects. But do you really need it?
2. Most worryingly, doctors apparently can’t tell from the biopsy result whether cancerous cells denote an aggressive tumour which requires immediate treatment, or a slow developing tumour which probably does not need any treatment. As a result, as I understand it, all patients with cancerous cells may generally be assumed to need immediate treatment, such as hormone replacement, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, even though 85-90% of them don’t need any treatment. Research papers suggest that in men in their 70s, 25% who have this treatment will become incontinent or impotent as a result. Many of these men will suffer these consequences despite the fact that they didn’t ever need the treatment they were subjected to.
It’s also worrying that at two hospital appointments the issue of what happens after the biopsy has not been raised, even though it was clear that both the people I saw thought I should have a biopsy. Maybe they would say that it would have been raised if and when I agreed to a biopsy, but given concerns about receiving unnecessary treatment, I feel it should have been raised at the time the issue of having a biopsy was raised. Would they have explained to me that if cancerous cells were found, they might not be able to tell whether I needed treatment or not? Would they have told me that there was a risk (if not a certainty?) that I would be ‘offered’ treatment that I might not need? Since they did not have that conversation with me I cannot answer those questions.
Conclusions
My psa is raised but not highly raised and it didn’t move up fast, so I feel it is not at present a firm indicator of the need for a prostate biopsy – it’s inconclusive. The only additional risk factor I have is that I smoke, and I suspect that is often overplayed by the NHS. According to NHS statistics, I should be suffering the ill effects of smoking by the age of 70, in the form of early signs of lung cancer, but when I had a chest scan a year ago it was clear. In addition I have an enlarged prostate – which was determined at my first hospital visit not to feel cancerous – which means I would have a heightened psa anyway.
I have been offered another appointment by the hospital in six months, and I am going to take that up, but unless things change I think that has to be the last for the moment. It’s pointless me trooping up to the hospital every six months when I don’t want a biopsy – which is all they can do by way of diagnosis – and there could be people with aggressive tumours urgently needing those appointments. So I need to decide over the next six months finally, whether I am going to have a biopsy or not.
The hospital has asked me to have another psa blood test before I go for the 6 month appointment, but I have asked my GP for three-monthly psa tests, so that I can get more of a feel for movement on the results before I go for the hospital appointment. If my psa is suddenly moving up rapidly over the next six months, then, depending how fast and how far it is moving, I may agree to a biopsy. Otherwise it is unlikely that I will, in which case there is not much point in the hospital continuing to see me – though I will ask my local surgery to continue monitoring me with 4 or 6-monthly psa tests.
At the age of 70 I still work full-time (for myself), and having unnecessary treatment for prostate cancer would certainly have far more of an impact on my life than having a slow developing prostate cancer which would not affect my health or life expectancy, and might even have more of an impact in the short term than having an aggressive prostate tumour. So it’s a numbers game. None of us is going to live forever, and at my age quality of life is more important than lifespan. Younger doctors especially often don’t take account of this, and assume that keeping you breathing, no matter what state you are in, is some sort of medical triumph. Not surprisingly, there are lots of older people who don’t see it that way!
15 likes, 312 replies
sallie84 terryw
Posted
joe99488 terryw
Posted
Hi Terry, I tend to lean your way, I just had two lesions show up on a T3 MRI, I was clear on the same test 3 yrs ago. So now I must decide on whether to have a biopsy or just do active surveillance with maybe followup mri, I have requested the mri's because I have low platelets and am concerned about bleeding. So do I wait and see if these lesions grow or have the biopsy to see if they are aggressive. I will have to see what the docs recommend, I feel sure they will want to biopsy but I am going to ask if we can wait a bit to see if they grow. In the meantime I wlll switch to almond milk and walnuts. Below is the condensed mri report: whether to have a prostate biopsy & maybe treatmt after that, as of Sept 2017, I am almost 66. A T3 MRI just discovered Lesion 1: In the posterior right mid gland peripheral zone a small
T2 hypointense lesion measuring 0.6 x 0.3 x 0.6 cm
with a volume of 0.09 mL, with noncontributory perfusion kinetics.
Lesion 2: In the anterior right anterior apex there is a small T2
hypointense lesion measuring 0.5 x 0.4 x 0.6 cm with
a volume of 0.08 mL, with mildly suspicious perfusion kinetics. Two small lesions in the right mid gland peripheral zone and right apical
central gland, each with volume of less than 0.1 mL, are suspicious for
malignancy; PI-RADS 4.
I am otherwise in good health in a 6 yr remission for a mild leukemia, hairy cell leukemia, I am retired.
Any others posters comments welcome!
terryw joe99488
Posted
Hi Joe
Tough one. You're a bit younger than me, but for all of us there are no easy answers at present. I hope the next generation of guys will have more clear-cut options, but until then we're all paying our money, taking our pick and hoping for the best.
Hope it works out really well for you.
All the best Terry
Davey22 terryw
Posted
Ever have a PSMA PET CT Scan or an Axumin PET Scan?
terryw Davey22
Posted
Hi Davey
No sorry, can't help you on those, but hopefully someone posting here will have had.
All the best Terry
MikeTango joe99488
Posted
MikeTango terryw
Posted
Should I have a biopsy? I was sick after holiday in Thailand (with my wife). First PSA test was 4.2. Second test a few weeks later was 4.8. Ultrasound showed prostrate was clear. But then third PSA test was 6.8 (1-2 months after holiday) so had MRI scan a month ago on new Ultra High Field 3T MRI scanner. This showed three nodules 6x6x6mm to 8x8x8 mm. MRI doctor reported nodules were at PRIADS stage 4 and highly suspicious. Urologist advised having sonar-guided trans-rectal biopsy. I hesitated after seeing online reports against biopsies (infection, spreading cancer etc.). Also USA doctor friends advised against biopsy at this stage. Too early they said. High PSA levels probably caused by infection. Another friend said nodules could be caused by infection.
Urologist said no rush, finish current antibiotics and retest in one month (that was two weeks ago). This fourth PSA test (using free and total PSA) was lower at 5.5. Urologist said take further course of antibiotics and retest in 2 months (in another one month from now).
I rang Prostrate Cancer UK last week. Specialist nurse (who was excellent) advised having biopsy and noted that NHS performs 100,000s biopsies each year. She said I won't know if cancerous without biopsy. She indicted that trans-perineal biopsy had lower risk of infection, compared with trans-rectal.
I was taking Nebido hormone replacement therapy by three monthly injection (for 1-2 years) but doctors stopped these. I have no other health issues and no family history of prostrate cancer.
I have enlarged prostrate but it always showed clear on ultrasounds and PSA tests were normal (below 4) until now. I am 62 years old. I want to avoid biopsy but am fearful of delay and leaving it too late. Urologists say let current holiday infection pass but I should want to know if it is cancer and if it is malignant.
Prostrate Cancer UK nurse said something that sticks with me - PSA levels can go up and down but the detailed MRI scan will not change.
I currently work in Middle East so cannot get access to NHS quickly but will visit UK in 3 months time. I am new to all this having been blissfully ignorant until now. Any thoughts from experienced members of the forum would be greatly appreciated.
Davey22 MikeTango
Posted
Your 3TMRI has shown nodules. Now the only way to know if there is PCa present is to have a biopsy. Don't be afraid, it's better to know now before it gets worse. There are treatments available if needed, but if you wait too long, treatments may not work any longer.
MikeTango Davey22
Posted
Thank you Davey. Yes I'm beginning to think you and others of your same view are correct. I wanted to avoid the MRI scan (claustrophobia)
but was glad (after the shock of the report) that I had the scan. I suspect it will be same with a biopsy, which seems should be perineal, under anesthetics, in UK, guided by MRI or ultrasound (to find precise location of the nodules), and multiple needles.
My overseas urologist said he would use 20 needles guided by ultrasound but that it would be trans rectum - this put me off his hospital after I discovered that perineal has less risk of infection.
charles61038 terryw
Posted
I agree with Davey22. You should have the biopsy done. I was given antibiotics before the procedure and continued them after the biopsy which my doctor said would reduce the chance of infection. I didn't get any infection from the biopsy. But it did confirm prostate cancer. Fortunately it was caught early and was diagnosed as a slow growing non aggressive type. That gave me time to research treatment options. If you wait too long, your options may decrease. At least with the biopsy you can get an idea of what the next step should be. It may be one of watchful waiting where you can keep an eye on the situation and get tested frequently. There are many good treatments for early stage prostate cancer. Radiation, Cyberknife, Brachytherapy etc. But I would certainly get the biopsy done. Then you can act, or at least set your mind at ease. Good luck to you.
MikeTango charles61038
Posted
Your experience of
charles61038 MikeTango
Posted
After the biopsy is done it is sent to a lab where they determine if there are cancer cells present. If there are cancer cells, then they can identify what type. The biopsy will also give you a Gleason score that will also help you decide what to do next. Mine was identified as adenocarcinoma, with a Gleason score on 3 + 3 = 6. My urologist/urologist told me it was a non aggressive slow growing type. Any cancer diagnosis is scary, but at least it gave me time to do some research. The doctor told me that I could do the watchful waiting also called active surveillance and get tested regularly. I didn't want to wait if I could treat the cancer and be cured of it. So I decided on Brachytherapy which is a one time treatment done as an outpatient procedure. It took about 45 minutes. They implant low dose radiation seeds into the prostate. The low radiation does it's job without damage to surrounding tissues like the colon and bladder. My urologist told me that what ever treatment, make sure the doctor has performed that procedure successfully many times. The biopsy is no picnic, but it is tolerable - and then you know what is the next step. It may also show no cancer cells at all which would be great news. The best to you.