Should I have a prostate biopsy?
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Introduction
I’m 70 and have a PSA which was at 4.6 when I was 66, and while it has been regularly monitored over the past 18 months or so has been moving up and down between 6 and 7. My doctor thought that I should be referred and I have had two hpital appointments, but I have so far decided against having a prostate biopsy, though it is obvious that my local hospital’s oncology department would like me to have one. The health worker I saw at my first hospital appointment was happy to discuss the issue with me, but I suspect the consultant I just saw probably thought I should stop wasting his time and get booked in for a biopsy without further delay.
I have received information from those two appointments, but I have obtained much more information from online research. Based on studying a number of online medical reports over the period 2008 – 2014, it is evident that there is increasing prejudice, at least in the US and Australia, against the use of prostate biopsies. The primary reasons for this seem to be an increasing risk of serious infections from the most common type of biopsy, a growing recognition (though this may be controversial) that psa screening and biopsies are ineffective in reducing the incidence of terminal prostate cancer, and that screening and biopsies contribute to massive ‘over treatment’ of prostate cancers
Summary of Statistics (some of which may be controversial but all of which are based on (my interpretation of) studies published in urological journals, research reviews and conference speeches by leading urologists).
Of every 100 men who have a prostate biopsy:
· 97 didn’t need it (that is, they don’t have a prostate cancer requiring treatment)
· 6 will get a serious infection as a result (a figure which has doubled in recent years), which will cause them to be hospitalised, and from which a very occasional man will die, while others (we don’t know how many) will have persistent painful side effects
· between 17 and 22 will be offered treatment that they don’t need, as a result of which about 25% of men in their 70s will become incontinent or impotent.
The Perceived Indicators for Biopsy
Primarily a raised psa; a psa which has increased rapidly over a fairly short period, typically a year; smoking; family history of prostate cancer; age (considered with the other factors). I have a raised psa, but it’s not dramatically high – it’s been between 6 and 7 over the past 1 ½ years, and it has not increased dramatically – it was 4.6 five years ago. I do smoke, and I am 70, but I am generally in good health, and there is no history of prostate cancer in my family that I know of.
Statistics Based on Recent Urological Papers
Of every 100 men who have a biopsy, between 75 and 80 have no cancerous cells and didn’t need the procedure; 20 to 25 will have cancerous cells found on biopsy BUT a large percentage of these men will have a tumour which develops very slowly, will not be terminal and doesn’t really need any treatment. Only a small percentage will have an aggressive tumour requiring immediate intervention; the Harvard School of Public Health, in a 2014 paper, put this percentage at 10 – 15%, or 3 men out of the 100.
This means only 3 out of every 100 men who have a biopsy really needed it. And there are two other real concerns.
1. The one certainty with prostate biopsies is that 100% of the men who have them will have ‘side effects’. Some will be shortlived and not really a problem, but some will be painful and longer lasting, and some men, currently about 6 out of the 100, will be hospitalised with serious infections, and the very occasional one will die. There are no statistics for the number of men receiving treatment for post-biopsy infections at doctors’ surgeries. I don’t necessarily see this as a reason not to have a biopsy, because obviously if you really need a biopsy to diagnose a terminal cancer then it’s worth putting up with the side effects. But do you really need it?
2. Most worryingly, doctors apparently can’t tell from the biopsy result whether cancerous cells denote an aggressive tumour which requires immediate treatment, or a slow developing tumour which probably does not need any treatment. As a result, as I understand it, all patients with cancerous cells may generally be assumed to need immediate treatment, such as hormone replacement, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, even though 85-90% of them don’t need any treatment. Research papers suggest that in men in their 70s, 25% who have this treatment will become incontinent or impotent as a result. Many of these men will suffer these consequences despite the fact that they didn’t ever need the treatment they were subjected to.
It’s also worrying that at two hospital appointments the issue of what happens after the biopsy has not been raised, even though it was clear that both the people I saw thought I should have a biopsy. Maybe they would say that it would have been raised if and when I agreed to a biopsy, but given concerns about receiving unnecessary treatment, I feel it should have been raised at the time the issue of having a biopsy was raised. Would they have explained to me that if cancerous cells were found, they might not be able to tell whether I needed treatment or not? Would they have told me that there was a risk (if not a certainty?) that I would be ‘offered’ treatment that I might not need? Since they did not have that conversation with me I cannot answer those questions.
Conclusions
My psa is raised but not highly raised and it didn’t move up fast, so I feel it is not at present a firm indicator of the need for a prostate biopsy – it’s inconclusive. The only additional risk factor I have is that I smoke, and I suspect that is often overplayed by the NHS. According to NHS statistics, I should be suffering the ill effects of smoking by the age of 70, in the form of early signs of lung cancer, but when I had a chest scan a year ago it was clear. In addition I have an enlarged prostate – which was determined at my first hospital visit not to feel cancerous – which means I would have a heightened psa anyway.
I have been offered another appointment by the hospital in six months, and I am going to take that up, but unless things change I think that has to be the last for the moment. It’s pointless me trooping up to the hospital every six months when I don’t want a biopsy – which is all they can do by way of diagnosis – and there could be people with aggressive tumours urgently needing those appointments. So I need to decide over the next six months finally, whether I am going to have a biopsy or not.
The hospital has asked me to have another psa blood test before I go for the 6 month appointment, but I have asked my GP for three-monthly psa tests, so that I can get more of a feel for movement on the results before I go for the hospital appointment. If my psa is suddenly moving up rapidly over the next six months, then, depending how fast and how far it is moving, I may agree to a biopsy. Otherwise it is unlikely that I will, in which case there is not much point in the hospital continuing to see me – though I will ask my local surgery to continue monitoring me with 4 or 6-monthly psa tests.
At the age of 70 I still work full-time (for myself), and having unnecessary treatment for prostate cancer would certainly have far more of an impact on my life than having a slow developing prostate cancer which would not affect my health or life expectancy, and might even have more of an impact in the short term than having an aggressive prostate tumour. So it’s a numbers game. None of us is going to live forever, and at my age quality of life is more important than lifespan. Younger doctors especially often don’t take account of this, and assume that keeping you breathing, no matter what state you are in, is some sort of medical triumph. Not surprisingly, there are lots of older people who don’t see it that way!
15 likes, 312 replies
gale10132 terryw
Posted
craig84609 terryw
Posted
terryw
Posted
Hi Malcolm
I was told by a GP that psa should be 4 at 60 and 5 at 70, and it should be higher if your prostate is enlarged, but maybe you are being advised to have a biopsy because there is some pca family history. I certainly wish you the best with this and I hope you'll come back and post how it goes.
Miklemas terryw
Posted
Dear Terryw
This is the best advice - do NOT go for a biopsy initially but instead opt for a multiparametric MRI scan of the prostate (I went down this route, as I was strongly advised to by a retired urologist, when I had a PSA of 4.05). You will need to go private for the first part of the process (find the best private urologist surgeon specialising in prostate related problems) at a cost of around £205 for the consultation, but he/she will be able to order the MRI. I an sure they will agree with you that this by far the best starting point. This will not be fundable on the NHS. I had to pay £777 for the scan last September. In my case it clearly showed up a lesion that was likely to be cancerous. I then paid a further £840 or so to have a biopsy with the same urologist as he had the expertise and equipment to merge the MRI scan with a real-time ultrasound image (U/S images are useless on their own - too fuzzy) to target the lesion precisely. Samples from several other random areas were also taken - about 10 in all. The NHS are unlikely to have either the expertise and/or the equipment to do this merging and hence any biopsy will be hit or miss - all 10 random samples could miss!. If miss, the result will come back negative (when the tumour may actually be there) and you will be no wiser and back to square1. Mine turned out to be positive as expected.
The consultant (who also worked for the NHS) said that at this point I would need to get under the NHS so asked me to contact my GP and ask for an urgent 2 week appointment for one of the weekly NHS clinics at the local hospital.This I did and saw my consultant urologist/surgeon there after only an 8 day wait. I was now under the NHS. A prostatectomy was booked with great speed and my urologist/surgeon performed the operation. These ops cost around £12500 privately.
I hope this helps. My urologist surgeon also of course had my MRI sacan available to inform him during my robotic prostatectomy.
Hope this helps. Definately get it done if you can at all afford it. I myself am 67.
Regards
Mike
terryw
Posted
Hi Miklemas
Unfortunately I think the site is a bit boggled by the number of responses on the thread, and at the moment I'm only able to see an extract from your post. But from that I'm guessing you may not be in the UK. I've seen many people in the US posting here that no-one should have a biopsy until they've had a scan, but specialists at UK hospitals have not been willing to agree to that. However just within the past couple of weeks there has been a report in the national press here saying authorities now agree it should be scan first - but most NHS hospitals just don't have the capacity for that at the moment.
Apologies that I can't see the rest of your post at the moment. I hope I'll get the chance to read it before too long.
All the best Terry
Miklemas terryw
Posted
Hi Terry - i'll post it again and hope you can see it this time. Yes I am in the UK - Berkshire
Dear Terryw
This is the best advice - DO NOT go for a biopsy initially but instead opt for a multiparametric MRI scan of the prostate (I went down this route, as I was strongly advised to by a retired urologist, when I had a PSA of 4.05). You will need to go private for the first part of the process (find the best private urologist surgeon specialising in prostate related problems) at a cost of around £205 for the consultation, but he/she will be able to order the MRI. I an sure they will agree with you that this by far the best starting point. This will not be fundable on the NHS. I had to pay £777 for the scan last September. In my case it clearly showed up a lesion that was likely to be cancerous. I then paid a further £840 or so to have a biopsy with the same urologist as he had the expertise and equipment to merge the MRI scan with a real-time ultrasound image (U/S images are useless on their own - too fuzzy) to target the lesion precisely. Samples from several other random areas were also taken - about 10 in all. The NHS are unlikely to have either the expertise and/or the equipment to do this merging and hence any biopsy will be hit or miss - all 10 random samples could miss!. If miss, the result will come back negative (when the tumour may actually be there) and you will be no wiser and back to square1. Mine turned out to be positive as expected.
The consultant (who also worked for the NHS) said that at this point I would need to get under the NHS so asked me to contact my GP and ask for an urgent 2 week appointment for one of the weekly NHS clinics at the local hospital.This I did and saw my consultant urologist/surgeon there after only an 8 day wait. I was now under the NHS. A prostatectomy was booked with great speed and my urologist/surgeon performed the operation. These ops cost around £12500 privately.
I hope this helps. My urologist surgeon also of course had my MRI sacan available to inform him during my robotic prostatectomy.
Hope this helps. Definately get it done if you can at all afford it. I myself am 67.
Regards
Mike
terryw
Posted
Hi Miklemas
Finally managed to see your comment - and well worth it!
You've obviously managed to switch between the UK systems very effectively, which is not easy without some specialist knowledge, so your advice should be very valuable to a lot of men on this forum.
All the best Terry
charles61038 terryw
Posted
Hello Terry, if you are fine without know that you may have prostate cancer and don't mind taking that risk - don't get the biopsy. I believe that the biopsy is a sure way of finding out if you in fact have prostate cancer and if so, what type you have. Most are non-agressive types and can be cured. PSA was at 5.6, I had the biopsy - which by the way is no picnic. But that biopsy confirmed I had prostate cancer - 2 out of 12 core samples were positive. Fortunately for me, it was a non agressive type and could be cured. I research treatment options and tried to find one that had a good success rate, with as few side effects as possible. All treatments have their side effects, but they can be dealt with. I finally decided on Brachytherapy. Low dose radiation seed implants. It is a one time treatment done as an outpatient procedure. It takes about 45 minutes. There is some discomfort for a few days - not long sitting for a while. Ibuprofen helps with the inflammation and discomfort. At my 6 month follow up, my PSA was down to 0.15. I will go for my one year follow up this month on the 22nd. At this time, side effects are gone, and it is like nothing ever happened... and cancer free. If you do go for the biopsy, you will know for sure, and what your treatment options are. Good luck to you.
charles61038 terryw
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david41094 charles61038
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terryw
Posted
Hi David
I'm sure you're right about the post-biopsy infection rates. I guess we have to assume that the hospital admissions figures of 3 - 6% are right because they are confirmed by many studies. But I have never seen a study attempting to identify the percentage of men who have unpleasant, concerning, debilitating or long-running infections after biopsies, which are dealt with by GPs or by urologists at clinic appointments. What percentage of men who have biopsies fall into that category is anyone's guess.
terryw
Posted
Hi Charles
I thought they all prescribed antibiotics pre and post. Be interesting to know how man drs don't and what their infection rates are. Don't know about the enema though.
charles61038 terryw
Posted
Yes, the enema would help clean things out and lessen the chance of infection. Many men don't like the idea of a biopsy - but it can confirm and identify the type - most often a non aggressive type. And in that case, you have time to research your options for treatment. And a treatment that will get rid of the cancer. There are many websites for researching treatment options. A good one is the Prostate Cancer Treatment Research Foundation. pctr org. This website shows options and their success rates. What ever you decide, look for a doctor who has performed that treatment many times successfully. My best to you.
steadyeddy terryw
Posted
Interesting observations there terryw, which I tend to agree with in general. I'm almost 70 fit and active enlarged prostate.Raised PSA level of 6.03 in March 2013 I had the "conventional biopsy" december 2014 ,PSA only fluctated slightly but Urologist recomended a MR scan and then a bone scan due to signal intensity lesion in the central zone of the prostate,and "high signal intensity" in the bonypelvis area. Nothing Adversly Detected.(All greek to me at this stage even though I had started reading up on Prostate cancer) In Sept 2014 a template Biopsy at The Christie, revealed that out of a total of 59 cores, out of 20 from one target area 11 were found to be gleeson level 3+3=6 ,out of 8 from another targeted area only 2 were found again gleeson level 6.
My PSA had been stable and slowly in decline ( taking curcumin and trying to live an even healthier liufestyle etc) but due to problems fully emptying my bladder, I was put on Tamsulosin about 2yrs ago and then Dutasteride about 6 months ago , My PSA is now 4.35 which my Urologist says is =to 8.7 due to the Dutasteride, . He has been pressing me to have a Turps and another conventional biopsy,but has conceded that a template biopsy would be more usefull. I just don't know what to do about the turps, Although HoLep etc are available in other areas ,Turps still appears to be the GOLD standard but appears to have the worst possible side effects in comparison.There doesn't seem to be a perfect opp/treatment for increaseing the flow rate or voiding the bladder.
Any observations or experiences wouild be very welcome.
Ignorance was bliss.
terryw
Posted
Hi Charles
Apologies that I didn't respond to your main post. I don't get online much at the weekend so was going through my inbox on Monday morning and replied to your second message before I saw the first one.
To be totally honest, I also didn't reply, having seen your original post, because I saw that your biopsy suggested (to me) that you had a slow developing tumour, which seems unlikely to ever cause you problems or need treatment. So I was very surprised to see that you were then looking at treatment options. Why? But I didn't respond because it's none of my business. There could be all sorts of reasons for your decision, which are nothing to do with me.
Apologies if that's out of turn. No offence intended. We all have to make our own decisions.
charles61038 terryw
Posted
Terry, in answer to your question about why I decided to get treatment. I guess mainly is that I didn't want to continue to worry about having prostate cancer. Even though it was a slow growing kind. My urologist told me that I was a good candidate for active survailence - or watchful waiting. When I asked how that would work, he said I would have my PSA monitored every few months, and a biopsy perhaps once every 6 months to a year. That was enough for me... the biopsy part - once was enough. He also told me that II could get treatment and be cured of the prostate cancer, That sounded better to me. I also met with an oncologist who was also very supportive and explained in detail my treatment options. The Brachytherapy sounded like the easiest and least painful... and I liked the 'once and you're done' treatment. The low dose radiation means that there is less chance of damage to surrounding tissues like the colon and bladder. Over time, the radiation is gone. I think if I remember correclty, the half life of the radiation is 4 months. Then it gets less and less until it is gone completely. I thought too that I should get treatment while I was younger and in reasonably good health. The longer I wait, I might have other health issues to deal with too. I know we will all die of something one day, but I thought I could removed prostate cancer from that equasion.
We all have to make our own decisions about what is best for us. We just hope we make the best one. We are all in the same boat with this sort of decision... and all we can do is offer our support for each of our choices.