Stones removed by endoscopy, then gallbladder removal.

Posted , 6 users are following.

This discussion has been locked due to a period of inactivity. Start a new discussion

Has anyone had stones removed by endoscopy? (camera down) and what to expect...full gallbladder removal later (stones in there as well) oh joy!

0 likes, 51 replies

Report

51 Replies

  • Posted

    I had an ERCP which is the endoscopy and removal of stones exactly a week ago as a day-case patient.  I've had many endoscopies before but not ERCP and for me I don't like the first bit when the camera goes down; once it's past the gagging point I'm fine.  Having said that, on a scale of 1 to 10 in horrible-ness it isn't much more than a two!  I was given a sedative (midazolam) and a strong opioid analgesic (pethidine) and I wasn't aware of much of it and certainly no pain.  For this procedure they use an X-Ray to guide a small cannula that goes up the common bile duct (CBD)  To do that they go down to the duodenum and locate a little orifice (a sphincter, like the one in one's anus) and usually they cut and cauterise it to gain better access and to make it easier for stones to pass in the future.  Once through the sphincter into the CBD they squirt some contrasting fluid in which looks opaque to X-Rays.  In my case they didn't find the stones - sometimes they have passed before the procedure or just possibly the blockage might be due to the pancreas putting pressure on the CBD.  They cleaned out the CBD with a little brush and then came out again.  I was in for 30 minutes which seemed like five minutes and was fully awake before we left the procedure room -- they were VERY surprised, said normally people were still under for quite a while so presumably the sedation was light for me.

    I had to wait a couple of hours before they'd let me eat and I was watched carefully and monitored every 15 mins or so.  The endoscopist came round to see me and had a chat, she was very pleased and said I could leave an hour earlier than usual.  My wife drove me home.

    Since then I have had no gallstone pain but I haven't re-gained my appetite, with my weight falling around 250g per day feeling a bit nauseus.  I don't think it's anything to do with the procedure but obviously more bile is coming down now and maybe that has had an effect?  I fear that it is something else related but not actually to do with gallstones.   They were talking about having my gall bladder removed and I will see the consultant in a couple of weeks.

    There are known complications which you need to understand before the procedure.  Infection leading to acute pancreatitis is the most common and is said to be horrid.  Perforated bowel or CBD is another possibility as is mistaking the pancreatic duct for the CBD.  Some people apparently have a reaction to the contrasting fluid.

    All in all unless you get one of the complications there is nothing to fear.  Good luck, if they want to do it, it will be because they need to not because they have nothing better to do! 

    Report
    • Posted

      Thank you very much for this detailed account...it is my sister having the procedure, and is quite worried....I will read this to her, so she knows what to expect

      .  She has got to the point where she is frightened to eat because of chest pain and bloating.....this all came about out of the blue a few weeks ago after being prescribed Methotrexate for Arthritis...she was very ill afterwards and this has been the result of the xrays/MRI`s....so she really is not feeling well!!...We can only hope she dosen`t have a long wait for the endoscopy!  Thanks again...

      Report
    • Posted

      I know exactly how your sister feels about eating and bloating with pain! Try to eat nearly zero fat.  It is fat by that sphincter I mentioned (Sphincter of Oddi), in the duodenum,  that triggers a hormone called cholecystokinin (CCK) and this hormone causes the smooth muscles round the gallbladder to contract and squeeze.  If the CBD is blocked (by a stone or other blockage) the pressure builds up and causes that really dreadful colicky pain.  Protein also triggers CCK to an extent but fat is the main culprit.  I felt no real desire to eat anything much and certainly not fat.  Aim for zero fat if she can, which isn't possible of course and anyway we need some fat and calories.  Just go ultra low fat.

      There is a drug available in pharmacies called Buscopan which is sold for IBS. Buscopan reduces spasm in abdominal smooth muscle and can greatly reduce spasm in the gallbladder.  I was given it i/v in hospital and my GP prescribed the tablets for me.  It helps. You can buy from the chemist but remember that the chemist isn't supposed to sell you a medicine for anything not on the label.  What's on the label is IBS. So might be best not to talk about gallstones....?

      My pain was very severe and I was given oral morphine to take at home.  That helps enormously though my consultant wasn't too keen; he didn't like the idea of covering up such a severe pain and said it's better to go to A&E if in terrible pain.  My consultant probably has little experience of being a customer in A&E!!  Maybe your sister can discuss with her GP.

      What doesn't seem to work at all is Gaviscon or other indigestion remedies such as Zantac.  When you think about it you wouldn't expect them to work!

      Report
    • Posted

      You're welcome.  Gallstones are renouned for their horrible-ness.  Your sister can expect a huge amount of support and understanding.  In one of my trips to A&E at 0300 a doctor in her early 30s said she'd suffered in the past.  Last week there was a girl waiting with me for the same op and same endoscopist who was barely 20.  We seem to be getting them earlier and earlier; I suppose it's all about our diet?
      Report
    • Posted

      I`m not sure about that, I said to my sister I wonder why some people get them and not others.  She has always been, as long as I can remember,  a vegetarian (she`s 50) with low (4) cholesterol.....she didn`t even know she had them till she was violently ill through medication (sick) and intense pain followed...we can only assume she disturbed them!...She is awaiting a steroid for her Arthritis...she seems to have pain everywhere, which is difficult to deal with....but at least the stone problem can be resolved, and hopefully life for her will ease!
      Report
    • Posted

      I presume (hope) that they have visualised (ultrasound and MRI) the stone(s) in the GB and the CBD?  Inflammation of the pancreas can produce identical pain and jaundice even if there are no stones at all.  Some medication can cause the pancreas to play up.
      Report
    • Posted

      Yes, she had xrays and MRI (with fluid) a couple of weeks ago. She got the letter this week to say ,they are doing endoscopy to remove stones in bile duct area...and full gallbladder removal, where she has stones as well, at a later date...she has just had phone call to give her the date for endoscopy.....Afternoon appointment, possibly returning home same day...
      Report
    • Posted

      I was told also to take Buscopan by my doctor and it worked wonders for 4 months until I had my Gallbladder on Monday. Now don't need any tablets at all. Just waiting now to see if I have any other symptoms to deal with.
      Report
    • Posted

       It seems a mixed bag as to weather there are any after effects when gallbladder is removed, to deal with, but I tell my sister that a lot of the people on here are asking questions about problems (or like me, asking about operations to come...... Tom seems to be doing well, and yourself...hope you continue to keep well! It`s reassuring for my sister who is very nervous about having anything done...
      Report
  • Posted

    Hi Linda , 

    i had both of these procedures . My advice would be :- after the ERCP do not eat any fat whatsoever and try to  push to have the gall bladder removed asap . I  wrongly thought after the ERCP that as they had done a syhincterotmy at the same time , that this meant any future stones would just flow out . The fat in your diet makes the gall bladder move , which makes the stones move , which can still get stuck in your cystic duct Or the bile duct or in my case both , which can then lead to a whole host of problems .

    i was most worried about the ERCP , but really both procedures were fine , it was in between the 2 procedures that I had the most problems . But I'm sure that I was atypical and that after you have had the ERCP you will be fine until your operation .

    Report
    • Posted

      Hi heepee,  I have had continuous loss of appetite, mild nausea and constipation since the ERCP (with sphyncterotomy) and waiting to see if I am going forward to removal of the GB.  My stools are very dark chocolate brown (not melaena just dark) which is all very uncharacteristic for me.  Did you enjoy the same after your ERCP? I am one week in.  Thanks.
      Report
    • Posted

      No I didn't really have those , but my stools never went light unlike many . After your ERCP your stones do pass out in your stools,  so maybe that's why they are darker ? My consultant told me that after you've had gall stones , you will always get another attack of biliary colic , maybe not for months or years but you will always get them . Given this I wanted to have my gb out , but thought no real rush . This was wrong ( for me ) . given that you are only a week after your ERCP I wouldn't worry too much , unless you are in pain and then if the pain is bad go straight to your gp or A&E . Best of luck .
      Report
    • Posted

      Thank you for that.  I had jaundice and light stools and was in hospital with morphine for the pain.  Proper poorly.  I don't think the darkness is due to passing stones but I suspect there'll be a lot of bile coming down and the Sphyncter of Oddi is probably not sealing, dribbling bile down into the duodenum.  I wonder if that is constipating.  I am seeing the consultant in a few weeks so won't do anything for now.  

      Very reassuring to hear that you are fine.  Infection into the pancreas seems to be their biggest worry.

      Report
    • Posted

      It`s inetresting reading all these things that can occur after stone removal....at least I can tell my sister, if these things happen, why they have...We are all different of course.  Hope you all comtinue to improve....
      Report
    • Posted

      Just one thing to bear in mind:  If we've had an immediate 'cure' from any medical intervention we tend to just get on with our lives not tune into Internet forums so I imagine those here (including myself) are amoung the least fortunate.  Hopefully your sister will have a smooth ride.  Let us know how she gets on.
      Report
    • Posted

      Yes, I agree, I have told her this...people on here, are after answers and/or reassurance....she has her Endoscopy 3rd August...will keep you posted, it`s interesting to compare...especially hospitals!!  Thank You...
      Report
    • Posted

      Hello Tom, I just wanted to let you know my sister had her ERCP yesterday, and all went well, she is feeling fine....The consultant did say she was to have the gall bladder out sooner rather than later, as she may have further problems...

      I hope you don`t mind me saying this, but when I sat in with her afterwards with the nurse, she said if your stools are black afterwards to ring the hospital department and speak to them....I immediately thought of your posting on here.....hope you are still recovering ok....and you wrere right the hospital were very good, my sister was very scared, but wouldn`t be in future!....

      Report
    • Posted

      Thank you, Linda.  I'm delighted your sister's ERCP went well, and let's hope she gets her cholecystectomy as soon as possible.  I am seeing my consultant on 17th August; the wheels grind slow in the NHS!  I am still suffering from nausea and my GP is investigating - he's also given me metoclopramide though that doesn't help greatly.  Might be something altogether different; coincidences do happen. The black stools (meleana) are blood that has been altered (part-digested) in the gut so any sign of that indicates internal bleeding. Please give my best wishes to your sister.
      Report
    • Posted

      Hope all went well for you yesterday....my sister has been rushed into A&E with severe pain and vomitting...she is being assesed.  She is on morphine (10ml) which isn`t doing it for her! Now  waiting for consultant to go this afternoon, she just wants the damn gallbladder out...she was feeling so well, and it struck out of the blue, but this seems to be the nature of the beast!.....Best Wishes, and hope you are getting sorted out this time ....
      Report
    • Posted

      So sorry about your sister.  I hope she's doing OK...sometimes they operate on an emergency basis I think but antibiotics seem to be the usual thing.  I have been given some to keep 'just in case' and oramorph.  Saw the GI registrar yesterday and she is sure I should have it out now because I have a liver condition that could get worse so best now while it's safe.  She is chasing in the General Hospital for me but is thinking 3 months or so as it itsn't an emergency (yet).

      Please stay in touch about your sister and give her my best.  

      Report
    • Posted

      They are sending my sister home today (on Morphine) because there is a long waiting list for the gallbladder op!....She also has had very bad liver readings in the last three months (due to taking Methotrexate for Arthritis) and felt very ill because of this, but are now getting back to normal.....

      It all seems a waiting game for everyone, they haven`t said how long she will have to wait.for the op....fingers crossed for you both, it won`t be too long, and not feel too ill while waiting!  All the best, keep us posted...

      Report
    • Posted

      Oh dear, I know how she feels.  Something similar happened to me in early July and that NHS Trust (where I live) hasn't got back to me.  Thankfully an adjacent trust where my GI specialist works has taken me on.  I hope your sister has someone to look after her at home?  My wife said that when I was taking Oramorph I was in my "own little world" while I thought I was pretty normal.  Dodgy!
      Report
    • Posted

      No, my sister lives alone...and also struggles with Arthritis..

      I have just been to see her, I had my own early appointment elsewhere, but they let me in...she is quite drugged up, they are sending her home today, and told her to call her doctor out if the pain comes on bad again, until they can operate....what else can you do, but just hope it dosen`t....What is Oramorph, and has it helped??

      Report
    • Posted

      Oramorph is oral morphine.  It isn't a Controlled Drug in that form and is given to people who have very severe pain.  Hopefully her pain subsides after a while?  In which case she's probably better off not using morphine. If you use morphine for a long while you get tolerant to it. So when you need it on another occasion in the future it might not be so effective.    I wouldn't leave someone alone when they are taking morphine.  I cared for both my parents when they had terminal cancer and we used Oramorph so I have seen the effect.  Another downside is constipation which is really a bad thing in the case of liver or bile.  Lactulose (from Pharmacy or Doctor) is the usual thing to take; even in quite large amounts until soft formed stools are being passed at least once a day.  Would be really best if some family member or friend could be with her at this time. Maybe there is a member of the extended family who would be glad of a roof/food for a while in return for being around?
      Report
    • Posted

      Thanks for that info Tom..I have suggested she comes to us for couple of days, she`s quite independant, and likes her own company and bed!  No sleep in the noisy ward....... I will have another try anyway....she has to go upstairs to the loo, and this worries me, being on meds....Thanks again...
      Report
    • Posted

      Seems like a bad ideea for her to be on strong opiates alone needing to use the stairs.  I know how she feels, tho' -- we all prefer our own bed and routine.  However, some people cope fine on morphine.  My dad did, mostly.
      Report
    • Posted

      Seems like my sister isn`t going home as yet, she has an infection, and they have put her on antibiotic drip, (plus morphine)  she has pain in her liver area/high temprature as well, I think they are going to scan her tomorrow.  Hospitals are no place to try and rest, it`s hot/noisy, and she is now feeling low in herself, she just craves peace and quiet with her cat at home!....and her own bed of course....hope they can get her right soon to go home, this gallbladder liver business is so damn complicated!.anyway,...best wishes yourself...
      Report
    • Posted

      So sorry to hear that. You're right about it being complicated. There are so many biological feedback systems involved with homones controlling everything.  If she's got an infection try to see they keep her in until it is totally cleared up. Not nice being in hospital but I think it's safer. Earplugs work well, you can get them in Boots or on Ebay.
      Report
    • Posted

      My sister was discharged from hospital yesterday, after being in 8 days, and going on 4 different wards!  They said at first there`s  a long waiting list to have her gallbladder out, then said they would do it, then changed their minds...she had an intravenous drip of anti biotics..to clear the infection...so obviously wouldn`t operate till that cleared....now sent home to wait her turn on the list.  A miracle happened though while in hospital, my sister also had Rheumatoid arthritis...she was pain free, after a couple of days, and could walk normally...move all her joints, first time in years..when we queried this with doctor, he said the antibiotics would have helped with the inflammation....not sure on that one though, so will do some investigating!...So it`s fingers crossed another attack dosen`t happen before the op, and she stays painfree, but must admit she`s nervous about what to eat.  Hope you are well....
      Report
    • Posted

      Hi Linda, I'm OK-ish thank you, waiting for the surgeon to make an appt for my assessment.  Losing weight due to no appetite and nausea; I needed to lose some weight but I'd rather it was controlled!  Still I'm nowhere near a Cheryl Cole cheesygrin  

      Your poor sister is going through the mill.  Very interesting about the RA.  It is a very complicated disease and is a specialisation in its own right.  I found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3883615/ This discusses the use of antibiotics in RA with an historical context.

      I bet she's nervous about what she can eat!  I presume they checked with the u/s before she was discharged that there are no stones in the CBD?  If not she could have a decent period before the next attack judging from others' experience.  I am starting to be blasé so I guess I'll get another attack soon.

      Report
    • Posted

      My sister just had phone call to do the op next Wednesday, so she`s going in as a day patient , all being well....so will keep you posted how it goes...Thanks for the link, will look at that for her....

      They only took a blood test before she left hospital, and said don`t eat fried food or salad dressings! 

      About weight, my sister has an underactive thyroid, and with arthritis struggles to lose weight, as you can imagine,  she is 12 stone...and her discharge letter from hospital said....".this obese lady.........that cheered her up...not.......keep well...

      Report
    • Posted

      Goodness, that's a cruel and potentially harmful thing to say to anyone especially if you don't know what their health and circumstances are.  She should seriously consider making a formal complaint -- I am not a complainer by nature but that's terrible.  Anyway here's hoping.  Is your NHS reliable?

      Do stay in touch...

      Report
    • Posted

      Well, a couple of people have told me recently they have been told by doctors/consultants...that they are fat...I think they`ve been told to be blunt to patients bcause of diabetes...but not all can do much about it.....I myself am on steroids (3 years) my Rheumatolgist always bullies me to get off them quicker than I am (but I relapse!) she says are you diabetic, and I say no, and she says not yet! (steroid induces it) It`s a different world out there now, nothing surprises me anymore, ther`s not a ot of respect.....

      Also, is any NHS reliable?....I just hope next week, comes and goes as it should and my sister can start getting on with her (quite limited) life!  Will post next week how it has gone.....

      Report
    • Posted

      There's being blunt and being rude and offensive.  I can think of many different ways of making the point rather than what they wrote.  Maybe I've been lucky but I haven't suffered from any lack of respect.  What I do find is they are ever-so-nice and nothing-too-much-trouble but the moment you are out the door you don't hear anything.  A (locum) GP suggested to me that one does need to be a bit pushy.  Not really in my nature tho'.

      Let me know how your sis gets on!

      Report
    • Posted

      Well, my sister is back with us from hospital after having the op (keyhole) They kept her overnight, she was feeling queasy, and some pain....She is sore, and drowsy from painkillers...but is glad to get it all overwith, and be out of hospital.  They gave her the stone, it`s the size of a gobstopper (remember those!) OUCH.......The doctor said to her after the op, you can eat what you like now, but she`s still nervous, because of hearing different opinions on this, some say no fat.....would be interested to hear of any views of people who have had gallbladder out, what they now eat!...Hope all goes well for you too, keep us posted...
      Report
    • Posted

      Wonderful news and very encouraging.  She might as well trust the doctor...!  After all he/she said she can eat what she likes now so she can make a warranty claim smile  I'm seeing my surgeon in clinic for the first time on 17th September.  Goodness knows how long the list is after that.  Yes, I do remember gobstoppers :-0 Wish your sister my best and hope she can update us with progress.
      Report
    • Posted

      Hello again,  My sister ask me to update you and inquire how far you have got on the waiting list?  She is feeling quite well considering she had picked up an infection from the hospital...it`s from one of the 4 incisions she had for the G/bladder op...the one near her belly button for the large stone to come out!...She has been prescribed 4 lots of antibiotics and none has cleared it.  She rang the hospital because lots of gunge/blood (sorry!) was weeping from it, and they said, we don`t do follow ups, there`s too many people, we wouldn`t have time!...She thinks it needs restitching, and the doctor`s not sure......give me strenght!....anyway, she can eat ok....and unfortunately her Arthritis is creeping back....I hope all is well with you....
      Report
    • Posted

      Hi Linda, I'm so sorry to hear about your sister's infection.  I really don't understand how they can leave an infection after surgery into the abdomen.  Has she got a fever?  If it is still weeping it is open to pick up any other 'wild' infection so she needs to take special care with wound management.  Her practice nurse might be the best person to see?  I can't imaging a nurse practitioner leaving it (or a doctor, come to that!).

      I saw the surgeon on 17th September and he wants another scan before he books me in because he is a little worried about how tricky it is going to be and these ops can be very dangerous.  There are serious risks involved.  I see him again in 7 weeks having had another CT scan.  If he's happy to go ahead I think he'll slot me in pretty quickly because he won't want the landscape to change.

      Do give my sincerest sympathy to your poor sister.  If the weeping is only just through the skin and not deep, you can use hydrocolloid plasters (Tescos are by far the cheapest if you can find one to fit).  These cause granulation which is one of the first steps to healing.  An excellent antiseptic is 'betadine' or povidone iodine.  I use the liquid but is hard to find in the high street; they sell dry powder spray-on povidone in most pharmacies.  Savlon Dry, for example.

      Do let me know how she's getting on.

      Report
    • Posted

      Thanks very much for the info in your reply, I will pass this on to my sister...She is seeing the doctor on Tuesday next week, and hoping to get some answers, it is slighly weeping from the place that was cut itself....she did have a fever before starting all the antibiotics, but even after taking so many of these she is starting to feel il...it does worry me because of her low resistance now to other things...like flu!...She is eating well, and a pharmacist recommended Actimel everyday, and pro and pre biotics....

      I do hope the scan shows for you that it is straightforward after all.....keep us posted all tips help us all.....Thanks again...

      Report
    • Posted

      Antibiotics for abdominal infections can be quite strong.  I've had more courses over the last few years than I'd like and they upset my tummy.  When taking antibiotics and for some weeks after, I take Holland & Barrett Pro Bio 10 capsules which are very high strength and Fructo-oligo-saccheroid (FOS) which is a pro biotic.  The only place I've found to get FOS is online, Amazon.  Comes in a big tub and tastes a bit like candy floss.  I think it helped -- I'm taking Pro Bio 10 now as I had a long course of Cipro for a gallbladder infection a couple of weeks ago.

      The idea of these pro biotics is to cause a friendly environment in which your natural flora can re-establish themselves.  There should be no need to keep taking them forever.  Lots has been discovered about gut flora over the last few years, interesting read if you look at the medical papers on Medscape.

      Report
    • Posted

      My sister saw the doctor yesterday, and she said she thinks she dosen`t need anymore antibiotics (we hope!) and filled the wound which was the problem weeping in her belly button, with the same thing (clay she called it) as they do with babies, when the umbilical cord dosen`t heal right....so here`s hoping she can move on with this now.....

      Her pain with RA is back, she sees the Rheumatologist in two weeks, and hope she can throw some light on why her pain eases with antibiotics....her doctor had never heard of it before....maybe something else is going on. It does sometimes follow that things are found by accident...like some cures, I always think....

      Do keep posting how you are, as we will....

       

      Report
    • Posted

      Hi Linda, have been offline for a while.  I hope your sister is still healing or healed?  I'm having a CT pelvis and abdo with contrast tomorrow, another ultrasound in a couple of weeks and then a week later I see the surgeon.  He is being very cautious because of my liver etc. I can't fault him on that.  He seems like a sound fellow so no doubt he will use his judgement as well as his skill and experience. 
      Report
    • Posted

      Hello Tom, my PC has been playing up also...damn technology...can`t rely on it for everything....

      My sister has now finshed her fourth lot of antibiotics and at last is healing.  She got her liver results this morning as ok....she will now be trying another drug for her Rheumatoid...she in a lot of pain and is house bound....it`s minefield to find the right drug.  She is very nervous, because the Methotexate that she took (only 2) started off the chain of events for the gallbladder...and you know the rest! 

      She has lost 2 jobs in the last year, and now has the benefits people wanting her to attend a "work activity assessment"  some days she can hardly dress herself! the stress of this is awful.

      My sister had the checks that you are having, then they proceeded, she also had a good doctor at first...so hope yours goes more straightforward than my sister, but I`m sure it will, it was unlucky she had the infection...

      Keep us posted, and good luck......

      Report
    • Posted

      Also meant to say, she is feeling fine after the gallbladder op, is glad not to have that pain and feel bloated, is eating mostly what she wants...Rheumy dismissed that antibiotics were masking anything else...after telling her that she was painfree on them....I think my sister needs to see about another Rheumy and get rid of her....rolleyes
      Report
    • Posted

      Hello Tom, My sister and I were wondering how you were....ok I hope.

      She is fine now ar regards the stones, and pleased to be out of pain and no bloating when she eats....so hope that`s the same for you soon...

      Report
    • Posted

      Hello,

      Don`t know if you are still "online" but hope you are well, and my sister and I wish you and your family a happy Christmas, and a healthy 2016! Linda

      Report

Join this discussion or start a new one?

New discussion

Report as inappropriate

Thanks for your help!

We want the forums to be a useful resource for our users but it is important to remember that the forums are not moderated or reviewed by doctors and so you should not rely on opinions or advice given by other users in respect of any healthcare matters. Always speak to your doctor before acting and in cases of emergency seek appropriate medical assistance immediately. Use of the forums is subject to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy and steps will be taken to remove posts identified as being in breach of those terms.

newnav-down newnav-up