Wanting to come off amitriptyline

Ose, if I understand you well, you have been on amitriptyline for 26 years. That's amazing. You are right about taking something for life. No layman would dare judge you or advise you if you had to take beta-blockers or statin or warfarin and other life saving drugs. So why be suspicious of someone with depression or insomnia -which are conditions not obviously painful like a broken arm or life-threatening... like a neck injury or something. Because it is not immediately visible to the naked eye... it ist nevertheless very debilitating.

People who don't suffer are very quick to give their unsolicited advice on what you should do instead of taking a drug (healthy diet, exercise, food supplements, meditation etc...). How stupid of me not working it out myself in the first place!!!!...  It always irritates me to meet such people and I always wished I had not said anything. I want to scream at them they are so smug!

Even talking about these kinds of health issues to a doctor is no guarantee of being taken seriously and not being told very quickly about so-called self-help and life-style changes. Families are not always that helpful and supportive either.

I so sympathise with your struggles and particularly your reaction to some drugs. How one metabolises meds is very much a question of individual make-up. What suits one person is a poison to another! 

For me Amitriptyline at first made me feel wonderful and took me back to radiant good health. Like you, I wanted to be on it for life. But gradually I started to develop increasing side-effects, notably weight gain (that no amount of dieting or exercise could control). This was because, with taking Amit, I had acquired a sugar addiction without noticing it straight away, as it came on so gradually. I first noticed an increased appetite as I was frequently hungry. But this "hunger" was a very unhealthy way as it seemed I was craving sweet foods and carbs. If I did not eat sugary high GI foods, I bacame very agitated, faint and sweaty, shaky, like with an overdose of insulin for diabetics (hypo's). My weight escalated and then I began to feel unwell again. Too many episodes of hypos, too much weight, too much sweet food, little exercise -I felt too heavy to walk briskly and quickly got out of breath and yet too faint with this strange craving for sweet things. A nightmare. It seemed that I had swapped my insomnia for a greater problem of addiction and obssessive need.

Of course, I now know that sugar is a very addictive substance -worse than heroin!

I have now stopped taking Amit for a week and have already lost my appetite and nearly 2 kilos in weight. No more cravings and hypo's, but no more sleep either. It is a vicous circle. I am quite desperate really.

Glad that even after 26 years on Amit, you at least are still able to live a normal life. It does affect people in different ways. My hope is to find something that will work for me as it does for you. 

Best wishes

Rose

Hi Rose

I enjoyed reading youur post.  I have been prescribed Ami' for nightmare insomnia.  Not sure which dose is good for that, the doctor said to try 10mg or 20mg, any idea?  I have really bad anxiety that came after the insomnia, I'm guessing due to sleep deprevation.  It overrides the over the counter stuff like nytol etc.

Sorry to read of your weight gain, thats not what you want is it, how long were you on Ami?  Diid you CT?  

When you say it worked brilliantly for you "at first" - does this mean it wasn't so good after a while?

Thank you for any help & best wishes to you and everyone on the page

Hi Caron and all others with sleeping probs. My poor sleep was due to back pain, but instead of dealing with the root cause, i.e. the back  pain, was given a benzo - Nitrazepam. Yes, it helped with sleep, but that was decades ago. Now hooked on the drug which no longer works since the brain not only becomes used to it, but continues  to need more!

I want OFF drugs addictive or otherwise - long term they harm the body. Patients then end up with a coctail of other drugs to counteract the ones that have failed them! There has to be a better way!

My research on sleep deprivation led me to the body's natural amino acid called serotonin which governs sleep, mood, weight and a whole load of other vital bodily activities.

Not only is serotonin one of the body's essential amino acids it also regulates the other 8 or so amino acids - that's how important it is.

Lack of sufficient serotonin causes a brain imbalance leading to all sorts of disorders of the kinds mentioned in these forums - insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks, headaches, mood disorders, poor memory - the list goes on!

Determined to avoid drugs and find a less harmful way of getting better sleep, from my research on serotonin I came across a herbal supplement called 5-HTP (5-hydroxytriptophan). Triptophan is in some foods but it has to first convert to serotonin. Unfortunately most of this ends up in the gut, whereas amino acids need to get to the brain where they become neurotransmitters. This is where 5-HTP comes in, because it does get to the brain when taken as a supplement.

Since taking it 2 months ago when my sleep was a shambles of 2-3 hours a night, it immediately improved rising to 4, then 5, and I am now at between 6-7 hrs a night, without waking dozey or unable to think clearly.

And while I didn't need to feel calmer, it has made me feel more calm, clear headed and positive thinking.

And guess what, because of better sleep I am now able to VERY slowly taper off my Nitrazepam, having in 2 months cut from 10mgs to 8mgs, so roughly 1/4 mg per week, a lot slower than the Ashton Manual recommendation. It's working for me, with NO withdrawal effects.

I can't vouch 5-HTP for others, that's up to them to decide, but my experience corresponds with many others using it.

I tried Amit for both sleep and pain but it didn't work for me, in fact it made me feel panicky - something I'd never experience before, and certainly won't be trying again.

I keep reading of patients using Amit experiencing weight gain and sugar/sweet cravings. Well, another of 5-HTP's claims is to help reduce these cravings, so it can be used to help reduce weight when combined with a sensible diet. Double blind tests have proved its ability to do this.

So, for me, better sleep (much, much better), calmer, able to taper off a benzo and eventually become drug free. It's a no brainer!

Hello Caron, I assume you are talking about my post to Ose this morning. I have previously sent several post to several people because I have been on this page for a over a week now. If you can retrace some of them, it will tell you more about my struggles. Please read the ones I have exchanged with Sheena and Amanda.

Yes I did go CT. The only "withdrawal" symptoms as such was the immediate return of my insomnia!

Basically, I was on Amitriptyline for 5 years for what I would describe as severe insomnia (I stopped taking it a week ago today). Doctors think I exaggerate when I say "severe" or "chronic". They prefer to have the privilege of their own diagnosis or assessment of your symptoms."Trust me, I am a doctor. You are neither ill nor suffering. You are just a time waster, a hyponchondriac, an attention seeker etc..."

s not sleeping more than two hours a night and then feeling rotten all day, falling into depression, and spending most of your time trying not to sleep randomly and irresistibly during the day "severe" enough? During my time as a teacher I remember falling asleep at least on two occasions in the middle of a lesson... while sitting at my desk!!!! (thankfully not standing up!!!!). That's what happens to some long-distance lorry drivers at the wheel... with lethal consequences.

I would say insomnia is an illness like any other, and one that impacts and blights your life at every level!

I so understand your anxiety and other related symptoms.

All I can tell you is how I reacted to Amit. It is no indication of how you might react.

Yes, it was wonderful at first because I slept like a log, and after the inital drowsyness during the day, I got used to the med and the drowsiness disappeared, giving way to a wonderful feeling of well-being, wellness, clarity of mind etc... But gradually I started noticing I was putting on weight. Weight and dieting had never been an issue in my life. I was always very slim -effortlessly, and being naturally frugal with no "sweet tooth" or other indulgences.

Worse still when I became hungry on Amit it was not in a normal way. I would experience severe drops of sugar levels which, even after I scoffed two doughtnuts would affect me for several hours or, frankly ruin the rest of my day. I called them "hypo episodes". Again, after going backwards and forwards to my doc with this new symptom, he didn't take it seriously, putting weight gain down to age!!!! And sugar cravings and hypos to a figment of my imagination!!!! Adivising me to watch what I ate etc... a "balanced diet", as they say, and take up exercise and a new challenging activity to take my mind off it and by way of "self-help" etc... In other words stating the obvious and thereby, Insulting people's intelligence!

No one would understand that my need to it sugary foods and having hypos, it was both real and very bad for me. Like being on an overdose of insulin.

Blood tests showed normal sugar levels though, but I was sure that I had developped a sugar addiction, brought on by Amit and that what I was experiencing (the "hypos" was no more than withdrawal symptoms of sugar. Like and addict, I needed my shot every two to three hours. With no control over it!

The weight rocketed, the hypos got worse and I had no choice in th end but to discontinue the Amit.

Insomnia immediately returned but I was right about the sugar addiction and the weight. Even on the first day offI lost my appetite and any desire for sweet foods. Result: have already lost 2 kilos (8 more to go!). But the insomnia is killing me! I have become a bit of an invalid and a reclusive. Is this how I am going to spend the rest of my days.... obssessing about sleep??? and suffering the effects of sleep deprivation??? 

I have so lost confidence in the medical profession. I can't be bothered to go back to the doc. I am looking for other remedies (natural ones?) but i have already tried those unsuccessfully in the past, including melatonin (available only on the internet).

Dr Michael Mosley did a programme on insomnia last night (BBC 2, 9pm). He is very good and I am going to explore his findings for myself. Programmes like that are bringing the subject into public awareness and making it a real issue, worth taking seriously, quantifying and researching scientifically. So there is hope for the future generations.

Please don't let my account deter you from going ahead with Amit. Ose seems to be doing well on it. Many other people do too.

By the way, I found that Nytol was very quickly ineffective as a sleep aid and was also causing me anxiety, such as you describe, after using it.

Sorry this is so long. Please do look up the Dr Michael Mosley programme as it dignifies sufferers and gives hope.

This forum too is good for the morale and for the various tips people give you, and, more particularly, because you realise you are not alone. Thousands out there are havind the same struggles as yourself. It is like having a support group of like-minded sufferers! So, I hope you too will find the forum helpful. 

For me it gives me the chance to bang on about it (getting all my anger and frustrations off my chest), with impunity. I hope what I writes helps others too. Let me know all of you!!!

All the best with your new treatment Caron Don't be discouraged by what I write. You might be perfectly all right with it. Let me know.

Rose 

Hi Caron,

I tried to reply to your post about an hour ago. But it seems it is being moderated!!!

I honestly say nothing untowards or indecent or pernicious or inciting violence!!!! I wonder why it is taking so long???

Oh Yes! I know... the post itself was too long!!

So Caron, look out for it

I'll contact you a bit later agin

Rose

Hi Stephen

I found the whole subject quite a revelation, of how serotonin and the way that it and other amino acids collectively run one's body via their neurotransmitting activities. I have no medical knowledge whatsoever, but it makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

However, a word of caution. 5-HTP may not suit everybody, just as certain drugs don't. It's natural (actually from the seed of Griffonia Simplificonia - an African shrub) but that doesn't necessary make it safe.

However, of all the test results I've looked at online none have indicated any side effects other than nausea in some people, and even that wore off after a few days.

Reviews are mostly positive, especially for sleep, mood etc.

I think it might help a lot of people trying to lose weight if they have sugar or sweet cravings. Obesity is on the increase everywhere. The cost to one's health and lifestyle, plus the escalating cost to state budgets to treat it make it (5-HTP) worth considering as a way of getting it under control.

I hope it is of some help to you and others who try it, but bear in mind my caveats about its use. Incidentally, I hope to also taper off its use once I've lost my dependence on Nitrazepam, but I'll have to wait a bit longer to reach that point.

I'm beginning to put 2 & 2 together now. 5 years ago i was suffering terribly from IBS. I had all my tests to rule out crohns, ceoliac etc, but because i was finding wheat intolerable, my GP advised me to try gluten free food. On top of an already limited diet. Therefore, i was missing out on a lot of nutrients.

As a result, (& as i said on an earlier post) i was put on iron tablets as i was suffering from terrible headaches. However, as the iron meds worsened my IBS, i was then put on amitriptyline as i was now suffering from migraines, sleep problems & chronic fatigue type symptoms.

Im now wondering if my symptoms were caused due to low serotonin levels all this time. Im not sure if serotonin levels are detected on blood tests. But, after your reply, it is making me wonder.

Hi again Stephen

I don't want to unnecessarily raise your hopes about serotonin. I think its level can be detected in the blood but that would relate to where almost all the body's serotonin is - in the gut. Because so little crosses the blood brain barrier I don't know how one's brain level of it can be ascertained, although I'm not saying it can't, I just don't know.

Re IBS - here's a post from another forum from 2009 which may offer some hope:

"5-HTP My miracle cure!

      #350536 - 10/02/09 09:31 PM[Edit post] Edit   [Reply to this post] Reply   [Reply to this post] Quote 

Just wanted to share with those of you out there who have helped me a lot through this message board.

Quick background - Gluten/wheat free for 4 years but still C, terrible bloating and cramps. Followed IBS diet with some success and colonoscopy was normal.

I also have fibromylagia which effects serotonin levels in the brain and apparently also your gut. Increasing the serotonin will help muscle soreness,sleep and digestion.

I have been taking a natural supplement called 5 HTP for about a month now with amazing results! This product increases serotonin in the body and my digestion has never been better. I'm eating normal "healthy" foods eg: wholegrain breads, cereals, all fruits and vegetables and wheat and am regular and bloat free!

I understand everybody is different but this has worked for me so wanted to share."

I hope this offers some confidence to try it, for as you can see, it's been around for a long time. I haven't read anything bad about it yet.

I keep forgetting to mention in my posts about getting benefit from 5-HTP. Apparently it is greatly enhanced with the supplement of vitamin B6, which is readily available over the counter, sometimes (as in my case) coming along with Vits B1 & B2, generally known as the B complex vitamins.

So if you do go for 5-HTP I suggest you also add at least B6. I have read that Magnesium is also recommended but it has been pointed out that this can further aggravate an IBS condition and is regarded as unnecessary, although B6 is necessary.

A knowledgeable writer of an article I have just read about 5-HTP and IBS recommends:

"If you are in any doubt at all about you using 5-HTP you should consult a well-informed, non-prejudiced physician."

I am fully in agreement with this, however when I asked my GP (UK) to discuss it she refused on the grounds that it was not a prescribed medication approved by the BMA (British Medical Association).

Prejudiced? Definitely,  but I was left to make my own decision. I'm glad I did!

Hello Will,

As the champion of 5-HTP that you are, I wanted to let you know that I have started to take it (only yesterday), and already, in less than twenty four hours, I have started to feel the benefits of it. It is remarkable. It has enhanced my mood ten-fold. It's like a fog lifting off my head. I suddenly feel more confident and more alive!

I didn't sleep very much last night (in fact two or three hours at the most) but I didn't get up dragging my feet and feeling sorry for myself. I have really felt tired either. So far so good. 

Longer sleep might ensue, I hope.

I think you and I have rivalled with each other for the longest posts -you win!

Thank you so much for your tip. Tell me, are you a health practioner? a nurse? a retired policeman???? You sound very well-informed.

Bless you. Rose

Hello Rose

I am glad for you, now getting some benefit from the supplement 5-HTP and I really hope that continues.

I have only recently tried it (since 6 or 7 weeks ago) out of desperation really, as nothing else was working. I had tried Ami  - twice - but it didn't agree with me,  and my GP (UK) refused to even discuss the supp 5-HTP because it wasn't medically approved.

I have no medical qualifications whatsoever, am 93 yrs old, have been on Nitrazepam sleeping tabs for 55 years, originally prescribed to aid sleep disturbance caused by back pain. Addiction wasn't mentioned back then! So technically I'm a Class C drug addict, but in reality I'm a victim of receiving the wrong treatment, which should have been for my back pain. Nitrazepam lost its sleep benefit long ago but it had me hooked, couldn't do without it, in fact needing yet more.

With sleep in tatters I did much research on the web. I'm very good at research, even at 93 as I also run a charity and maintain a website, so am computer savvy, which helps.

Research led me first to Melatonin which is better known for it's ability to aid sleep, but I dug deeper into the subject due to my age, and found the term serotonin frequently cropping up as this can greatly decrease with age. The more I dug, the more I realised how crucial this amino acid is to not just sleep and mood, but to many other brain activities that regulate our bodies. I have seen it reported that some elderly people have been diagnosed as in the early stages of dementia due to their poor cognitive abilities, when in fact they were simply short of serotonin.

To cut a long story as short as possible (difficult!) from serotonin articles I found 5-HTP. It contains a form of tryptophan which converts to a unique form of serotonin able to pass through the blood brain barrier to form the amino acid serotonin that regulates sleep, mood, appetite - and a whole lot more!

Many foods contain tryptophan but most is converted into another form of serotonin that ends up in the gut, with little getting to the brain.

This all began to make sense, and with no GP help to advise about side effects I researched this too and found that there were few, mostly minor stomach upsets that subsided after a while. I decided to give it a go!

From day 1 my sleep improved greatly taking 2 x 100 mgs before bedtime. Sleep went up from 2-3 hours to the present 5 - 6 hours. I also found (even though not needing it) that I felt calmer, more positive, clearer thinking. A great bonus. But here is where it becomes even more interesting because knowing how useless Nitrazepam had become I went about doing something I couldn't do before - reducing the drug slowly to hopefully become independent of it. I had tried before taking off small amounts by hand but even that was too much to cope with from withdrawal symptoms.

This time I had a plan! I purchased some small electronic scales used by jewellers to weigh precious stones by milligrams. I can trim tiny amounts as little as 5 mgs from my uncoated tablets. Each 5 mg tab weighs 570 mgs which is 110 times the amount of the drug in each tablet so 5 mgs of tablet removed is only 5 divided by 110 = .045 mgs of Nitrazepam. (I'm not bad at maths either). Such a small decrease isn't noticed by my brain, so no withdrawal effect, or very little I can't cope with! I have so far (over 8 weeks) reduced the Nitrazepam by 20% or from 10 mgs down to 8 mgs. I could never have done this without 5-HTP. It will take me another 6 months or so to get to the position of complete independence but feel confident now that it's possible.

I know this is another long post, but my research led me to much more than I needed for my personal gain. With so much in the news about obesity and its deadly potential, shortening life, diabetes, cancer and a whole lot more (apart from its appalling cost to healthcare systems and government budgets) I realised there was even more that 5-HTP might do, given the chance with good, well structured research to provide stronger evidence. Tests have been carried on mice, rats, and small groups of humans with similar results - weight loss among them. Other benefits were reduced stress, reduced agression, reduced anxiety, and a lot more. It helps with migraines, depression, fibromyalgia too.  Again it makes sense when you know that serotonin is not just one of 9 amino acids in the brain doing its own thing - it also regulates what the other 8 are doing! They are all neurotransmitters so you can guess just how much they all influence the many aspects of our inner (and mental) workings.

But back to weight loss, because its not just serious but growing very serious - globally. Double-blind tests on groups of mostly women found they lost over 11 lbs in 12 weeks compared to less than 2 lbs on placebos. How? Well, as I said earlier one of serotonin's roles involves appetite and it's particularly good at suppressing sweet cravings! Tests found people taking 5-HTP felt sufficiently satisfied with less food, and especially sweet foods. So why isn't it being taken more seriously?

I think I've rambled on enough to have put you to sleep now without the need for 5-HTP, and it's way past my bedtime anyway, so goodnight, and I wish you many more goodnights too.

Good morning Will, 

As you see I am up early yet feeling great. Your story is amazing. I don't know how you have managed so long. Your struggle with Nitrazepam is absurd. It should never have happened. I think it is admirable that you have soldiered on and not giving up. Only last week, I was so sleep-deprived, with all that entails, that I wasn't suicidal as such, but thought I could die ... and wanted to die. Wanted to give up. And my original problem was not even depression but insomnia.

Now less than 48 hours from taking my first dose of 5-HTP, I feel 20 years younger.... well more optimistic at least. I feel I have a future again. Yesterday, when I wrote to you I told you that, even though I had hardly slept that night (as usual) I was not feeling tired and my mood had improved. That lovely buoyant feeling continued throughout the day.

But last night, I slept really well -at last- with no sleep aid. I slept 7 hours... and that feels like a miracle. I really think I have turned a corner. I have hope for a full recovery now... And even regain the figure of my youth!

With me, the craving for sweet foods disappeared when I stopped the Amit and I even began to lose weight. Maybe 5-HTP will help that too.

I agree that it is a disgrace that the medical profession does not take alternative remedies seriously, I understand though that they can't even advise on it. Apart from saying "take a walk" or "stop worrying" -which is patronizing, they are not prepared to stick their neck out with anything else. Quite right too. We live in a "I'll sue you" society. They are only protecting themselves.

However, I can't help but feel I have been let down by the medical profession. I won't go into that again. My reply to Caron, says it all. 

But in your case... my goodness, you must feel let down!!!

Well done though for your determination to "help yourself". You give an entirely new meaning to "self-help". In my doctor's book "self-help" seems to mean anything from exercise, not drinking coffee and relaxation...

Not looking out for alternatives.

What about the dangers of self-medication??? Too many people end up harming themselves with illegal drugs and other substances (thankfully never me!). But desperation can lead to extremes of behaviour!!!

Your story is however one of great courage and encouragement. And greatly valuable to others too. It is good of you to want to share it in this way. God bless you. Continue the good work. 

I wonder one thing though: How IS your back now????

Was it worth all these agonies???

From what I gather, I seem to count amongst the fortunate few not to experience withdrawal symptoms (from Amit at least). Small consolation.

Good to hear from you. Keep in touch

All the best

Rose x

Dear Will,

My earlier reply is waiting to be moderated. Again, I wonder why... I don't think I said anything reprehensible!

When you read it (if ever), you'll understand this next point. 

First of all I keep re-reading your post of last night. I think it is remarkable that you have survived so many years of insomnia. 

Last year I went for 10 weeks not sleeping for more than two or three hours, I ended up with a "nervous breakdown". Although it was never officially recorded as a "breakdown". I mean, what do you call not being able to sleep, to get dressed, to see anyone -not wanting to see anyone- to feel faint and dizzy and wobbly, to not go out, to drive, to shop. To me this is the complete breakdown of minimal self-care skills, on a daily basis. I just sat slumped on the sofa, staring at the wall. So why not accept the possible diagnosis of a breakdown???

 reported it to two doctors after I came out of it (with the hekp of Amit!), but they would not confirm my self-diagnosis, implying that if I am healthy enough and all right to report it, it is because I didn't have a nervous breakdown in the first place!

All that attitude of self-defence suggests to me is that they hesitate because to confirm what the patient says,  would highlight their own incompetence. And, let's face it, they don't want this neurotic little upstart to know better than them! It usurps their authority and superior knowledge! Being very sarcastic as you see! Apologies to all the wise, calm people out there, nodding in disbelief!

Finally, in a state of desperation I resumed Amit. I started to sleep again.... but the sweet food cravings came back almost overnight and became so bad -crippling in itself- and with the weight reaching an all time high, that I had no choice but to stop Amit and try something else. Like you research on the web led me to this forum and to your wise counsel.

This brings me to one thing I really want to "rant and rave" about, is the idea that "counselling" (with "pros", that is) can help with your symptoms! What a lot of rubbish. It makes me want to punch anyone who suggests it. As if a lack of serotonin flowing to the brain is somewhat something you can control. Same with behavioural therapy and such like modern methods, it makes me very angry, because essentially it is saying to you "you are a neurotic, incompetent, attention-seeking idiot etc..." At least that how I see it. 

To think that people out there are suffering rael symptoms that can be cured but are instead being made to feel guilty because they cannot resolve it themselves. All this "psychobabble" is highly damaging and only serves to cover up the med's own incompetence and inadequacy. They don't know what's wrong so it must be in the head of the sufferer only. It is dreadful, a scandal actually. 

Another question I have for you, I have also ordered slow release melatonin from a trusted websitee. I used to take normal melatoninit, but it did not help with staying asleep. It quickly wore off. So I gave up. So recently I started researching it and came across "slow release" and decided to give it another go. My order has not arrived yet and I made it was before I tried 5-HTP. Seeing that 5-HTP is working, I will probably not take it, but keep it as a back up. But my question to you is this. Do you know of any contra-indication for using both concurrently?

I do hope you can read this message at least, if not the previous.

I think your case is very inspiring and all that suffering will not be in vain. God has used it so you can help others. Bless you.

Rose

Hi again Rose. Your previous message did appear and I was a long way into answering it when I must have hit a wrong key and all disappeared. I got back to find your later message above, so will try again to respond to your points raised.

Thanks for asking about my back - the real cause of my sleep problems. The short answer is that I manage it with a variety of topical creams that help soothe inflamed nerves, or with massage devices all with different effects, but my most effective pain relief is the simple application of heat (hot water bottles) or ice packs. It's not so severe as to render me helpless, just ongoing pain at different levels, and occasionally not too bothersome. It often relates to what I do, bending, weeding, carrying heavy shopping bags or even standing for too long. Worse during night when internal organs press on exposed nerves in lower spine as I sleep on my back, no matter what position I go off to sleep in. I keep as physically active as I can - there's enough to keep me on the go with housework as I live on my own and look after myself, plus gardening chores, shopping, driving, and I do various exercises to keep joints flexible. I know I keep on about 5-HTP but since taking it I'm sure my perception of pain has decreased, but this too fits the pattern of how the brain works, since anything that moderates its activity is capable of moderating the sense of pain.

I'm glad to hear you are doing your own research, because I've discovered so much about how the body (brain in particular) reacts to even small changes in its makeup. We know more about the moon and the universe than we do about our most important subject - our own bodies!

I know there are similarities between melatonin and seratonin but not enough to answer your question, and it's a very good question. I found a pretty good answer in an article online. I won't put the link here as I'm not sure about moderator rules so will post it separately after I post this. It explains that seratonin helps create melatonin, therefore a seratonin shortage can lead to a melatonin shortage. It becomes more complex when s is converted to m, reducing the amount of available s - which has its own? job to do anyway (kind of catch 22) so it depends of how much of each your body needs. Both aid sleep, but whereas melatonin is mostly sleep related, serotonin does a lot lot more besides.

One other important fact I keep forgetting to mention is that to get the best from 5-HTP it needs vitamin B6 which synergises with it to maximise its benefits. I have added this and feel sure that it is helping to do an even better job. I now sleep without a break - fantastic.

Melatonin is said to be non-toxic even in high doses but my personal approach to this problem of combining medications is, if one is similar to another then leave one off before trying another. If the other works better, stick with it, or else return to the one used previously. Better safe than sorry is my motto.

I also feel, in your case, that you need some benefit re lowering weight, which 5-HTP claims to help with, and trials have proved that it can, although not with every case. We are all very different!!

I hope my suggestions are helpful. If my follow-on post with link is moderated, Google: Serotonin and melatonin relationship and you should find it.

Kindest regards

Bill

Hello again Will (Bill?),

After a reasonable night sleep (not as good or as long as yesterday. But no doubt, it will take time to achieve a normal level), I feel nevertheless very well and ready to get on with my life. The last two or three weeks since I came off Amit and stopped sleeping again, have been a bit of a nightmare. I felt very despondent about the future. I am now 68 and so many people around me, many younger than me are dying or have died. So, I really thought that if I didn't find a solution, it would be my turn next very soon. But I have four beautiful grand children and I want to stay alive for their sake. No that they need me but I think they love me! And I adore them. I would never do anything stupid like suicide. A terrible legacy to leave your family. But now I feel more optimistic about my future! 

So, in response to your last post of yesterday, I have found the site 5-HTP v Melatonin and I am now persuaded that taking both together won't be necessary. The action of 5-HTP on serotonin levels can regulate the production of melotonin in the brain. without further aid. Maybe I'll return the unopened package to the supplier for a refund -no need to waste money.

So far so good. Thank you again for your support. I will look into B6 too. I think it is included in my daily A to Z vitamin supplements, but I have not checked yet.

Continue the good work. Wishing you good health and long life.

God bless

Rose

By the way, I come from a stock of centinarians. Both my paternel grand parents and great grand parents, lived well into their 100's. My father died aged 93, which was young in comparison. My mother is 90 and is still very much alive. So, for me to die at the age of 68 would have been a bit of a disgrace for the honour of the family and their legendary longevity!

Dear Rose

In between our postings I have been looking at posts in other areas of this forum, all about amit, and I have to say that many, too many, especially those with a long term use of this drug, have found it tough to withdraw from.

It has been described by some as 'evil' and that patients should be warned about future side effects, and how long it could take to withdraw from. From their descriptions of how it affected them it makes my withdrawal problem with a benzo seem a piece of cake. It is, in my humble opinion an evil drug with gross and unknown consequences the longer it is taken. I am only too glad it didn't work for me soon enough for my needs so never got hooked on it. 

Did you know that medically it is described as a non-addictive drug? Well, you could have fooled me. And here's a nice piece of medical hypocrisy for you. It began life decades ago as an anti-depressant, then by accident it was found to have pain relief properties, also good for migraines. In fact it's prescribed a lot for migraines and yet is is not medically approved for migraines! How do I know that? It says so on this web site - not in the forum threads, but if you follow "Related Information" (on right, Amitriptyline/Medicines to Prevent Migraine Attacks, scroll down to "Which medicines....../Amitriptyline, and find this quote "Note: strictly speaking, amitriptyline is not licensed for preventing migraine. However, in practice, it is commonly used, and many doctors are happy to prescribe it for this purpose.

So, according to my GP, doctors - at least in UK - are not allowed to discuss non prescription medications but are "happy to prescribe" a non licenced medication for the serious and disabling contitions of migraines. If that's not a disgrace, I don't know what is.

I didn't tell you that in my low moods I have often entertained thoughts along the lines of "What's the ******* point of living" when you feel so miserable. I am the sole survivor of older siblings who died many years ago, but I too have children/grand/great-grand who I know, would be very upset if I died from "doing something stupid". But those thoughts have disappeared since taking 5-HTP. I wasn't looking for that profoundly different outlook that I thought was part of "the real me" but actually wasn't. I am greatly more confident, calmer and positive.

You haven't yet noticed how you seem to have already changed Rose - read your last post to see how calm and rational you are compared to your earlier ranting posts. Is that also the result of 5-HTP? It looks quite striking to me. I'll leave you to ponder on that one, but for me I'm in no doubt about the broader effects of serotonin. It's too early to take it for granted and I'm keeping a close watch for any unwanted effects but so far, so good!

Don't go back to amit Rose - it is evil IMHO, even though it seems to suit some people, but definitely not for a lot of others. I feel sure it is possible to withdraw, but, like benzos, it can and maybe should be done so very slowly over a long period, up to a year.

Keep your spirits up Rose, and I'm sure your corner will turn, as mine has.

Will or Bill? I was Will to my sister but prefer Bill.x

Hello again Will,

Lovely of you to take more time out to minister to "a ranting and raving lunatic" like poor old me!!! 

When I first joined this forum it was simply to find out whether or not Amit caused weight gain. I was most surprised to hear about the horrendous stories of addiction, as related by Sheena and others.

To be fair, I have not suffered any of those symptoms at all. In fact when people say they have "withdrawal" symptoms, I am not sure I understand what it feels like. Perhaps you could describe yours, although more related  to Nitrazepam.

The only symptom I suffered was the immediate return of my insomnia. I may have felt a little dizzy at first, but I put it down to lack of sleep, which is how I used to feel before being prescribed Amit for my sleep disorder.

At first, the consequent side effect of taking Amit was not something I noticed straight away.... It is only when I developped quietlly creeping cravings for sugary foods that, more recently, got completely out of control and made me feel very ill in itself, that I put two and two together.

In the last 6 or 7 months, I experienced severe sugar withdrawal every two or three hours, feeling light-headed, faint, shaky, sweaty, extremely irritable, like a diabetic with an overdose of unsulin and suffering with hypoglycemia. Even after eating and drinking lots of sugary things, this state of "dis-ease" would continue for several hours and would ruin the day! At that point I decided to stop Amit altogether. 

With the return of my insomnia, which was crippling me, I did resort to Amit just the once, to get a good night sleep and put my head together. Never will I contemplate going back on it ever! 

Unfortunately the attendant weight gain, also made sure that I totally lost my physical fitness. I found walking (and still do) even short distances would leave me very short of breath etc... A nightmare. Now I am praying that my fitness will gradually return.

Fortunately, my cravings for sweet foods disappeared literally overnight! I think it has now been replaced by a kind of aversion for anything sweet! I have lost weight but I need to start building up my physical strength again. I feel I have a bit of a battle ahead of me. Regaining my health, fitness and figure has become my next mission in life. 

So, yes with hindsight, Amit is the med from hell. It lures you into a false sense a security then attacks in a way that only the devil can imagine! And in ways that seem tailor-made to inflict mximum damage. I am a "born again" Christian and I do believe that there is a spiritual warfare raging over the heads of believers. If you know your Bible you will quickly find or know the scriptures I am referring to.

Yes, coming across your crusade in favour of 5-HTP does feel like a divine   intervention and it is now beginning to feel like a "miracle" cure! Thank the Lord!

Do let me know about your own withdrawal symptoms, for the only ones I have experienced of are those hypoglycemic episodes I described, but that was while I WAS on Amit, never after.

You too keep up the good fight. And may the real YOU emerge, ever stronger, calmer and healthier, along the next stage of your journey. Continue to make your voice heard on this forum. You have no idea how many people you are affecting and saving.

God bless

Rose x

By the way, yes I was "rabid"... particularly out of frustration and extreme exhaustion... and particularly towards the medical profession. 5-HTP is now taking care of that too. I have a doctor's appointment next week. I might cancel. 

Hello Rose

I'm glad to hear that you are feeling some benefits from the serotonin boost 5-HTP gives, and if others have also given it a try and feel better for it then good for them too.

There's no 'one size fits all' in these situations, as with the drugs themselves, individuals react differently making it difficult to weigh up the pros and cons. In most posts there have been consistent reports of sugar/sweet cravings and consequent weight gain, and even though yourself and others haven't experienced the worst that amit can throw at you on withdrawal, for those that it has affected it's been a hell-ride (and for many it still is).

Unless you have already been checked for BP and related matters I do think you should keep your appointment. I know how you feel about the medical profession, rather as I do having felt let down on so many occasions. There are times though when the circumstances weigh somewhat more in their favour, if only to hopefully eliminate the possibility of heart or circulation problems.

As Bing used to sing - 'You gotta accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmative........'. You are already more positive, so don't overlook the negative just in case it needs checking.

I'm sure you are well informed about diet matters. I have no problem with weight but certainly do with energy - or lack of. But then, ancient as I am that's hardly unexpected. I do try to pack as much energy-rich food as possible into my diet that's also non-fattening. There are a number of natural sweetener replacements that provide energy without the calories, in case your body is missing the calorific energy you used to get from sugar.

It's a long time since I last tried Nitrazepam withdrawal, while still at work. The effects then were on sleep, increased nerve pain and feelings of extreme tenseness, irritability, a short(er) fuse, and with increased insomnia anyway, it became a vicious circle and not good for my working and home relationships. My present withdrawal method is on a very slow scale, even to keep on one level for several days before dropping just a little bit more. That's why, if I can keep this up, it could take another 6 months, maybe even more. I've never got this far before which is why I think it's more likely to work this time.

I have a great regard for those with a faith of whatever flavour as it must be very supportive. Occasionally I wish I had one, but the harsh realities of life leave me with little but my own rather cynical outlook. My one strong belief is 'Do unto others...etc' which somehow helps, although I do wish some of the 'others' would also think and act likewise. Silly me.

I very much hope you continue to progress, even if slowly, towards a healthier 'you', but take your time, and...... accentuate the positive!

Take care.

Will. x

Dear Will, I tried to reply to this message earlier on, but I don't know what happened as my reply did not register at all. It wasn't even being moderated! In fact, it just disappeared. It was too long and took too much time for me to rewrite it. I just have to accept that it is lost. I might try again tomorrow. In the meantime, it might re-appear overnight. 

Rose x

Hello Will, I have not written for several days as my broadband connections were down for several days. Briefly before something happens to my PC again, just would like to say, as much as I want to accentuate the positive, I am afraid I have run into a problem with 5-HTP. I believe it is causing water retention. The benefits are fine up to a point but not enough sleep for me still. I am not goving up, but I'll try seeing my doctor again next week. 

Has anyone out there reported "water retention" with 5-HTP? With the possibility and danger of high BP?

The notion that a) weight gain is "normal" with age and b) that older people need less sleep with age, is, for me a lot of nonsense I do not subscribe to any of these suggestions. It simply does not work for me. 

Such notions only encourage attitudes of resignation... and acceptance of conditions that are not necessarily inevitable in old age!!!!

(These are again, "myths" perpetuated by inadequatw doctors!

And I will not resign myself to the prospect of "ageing" in this way. It is simply not true. Just as I do not believe that getting "grumpy" is a "natural" and "normal" part of getting older!!!

So, here I am Will. Any useful counselling from you??

By the way, without wanting to sound overdramatic, in the night, as I woke up and struggle to get back to sleep, I thought that if I carry on like this,

if I cannot find a solution for my insomnia, I probably would not be alive this time next year!... And it would be entirely by "natural causes".

If nothing else, my Christian faith would prevent me for "doing something. silly".

Take care Will and others out there. And I would love to hear from anyone on 5-HTP

Rose x 

Dear Rose

Good to hear from you again, although not so good news. Coincidentally I too have had broadband problems, with frequent dropouts and sometimes no useful connection. That's about to change following a call I made to BT's dedicated bb help line (somewhere in Asia) which informed me I had a fault on my line that an engineer would investigate.  It got a lot better when BT UK called me to make an offer I couldn't refuse - an upgrade to fibre, no charge for setup etc as compensation for my problem, and better still - no extra charge for fibre for 18 months. It should take effect next week but perhaps you are not so lucky to have fibre where you live?

Back to medical probs and 5-HTP, and as far as water retention is concerned I've seen no mention among the many reviews I've read neither have I experienced it myself. I have noted an occasional darker urine that could be related, but nothing else. Water retention is definitely a side effect of amit along with dry mouth.

High BP - a quick search seems to indicate quite the opposite, that 5-HTP shouldn't be taken by anyone with low BP as it might further lower it.

I've had to make a change to taking it for insomnia, great as it was to start with 2 months ago. My situation is complicated with sleeping drug Nitrazepam (which i'm still very gradually reducing) but sleep-time began to reduce. I'd read an article by a naturopathic physician that 5-HTP can be safely used with valerian, (remember, one has to make own judgements about such advice.) I've used it many times before and have recently halved 5-HTP from my dose of 200 mgs to 100 mgs, with addition of a valerian/hops/passion flower mix tablet. Very good so far, but too early to judge for consistent results.

Ageing!! How much I've learned about it (and only via the Internet) in the last few months. It's affected my sleep, energy, legs/walking/gait so much that I realised I had to take action based on what I'd discovered.

That's not to say Rose that you should avoid 'inadequate doctors' when needs be. BP is another difficult area to explore about oneself. I've had my own kit (they're cheap) for years, and get extremely variable results with barely 3 minutes between each of 3 tests taken, one very high and another close to normal. This has been so for several years!  Whenever a GP takes my BP I am never told what it is and they only take one reading, so how do they make a judgement I often wonder?

In your case, you mentioned breathlessness and difficulty walking but (sorry to ask) does weight come into this also?

Fortunately I don't have a weight problem but do have sleep/energy/walking probs so have extensively researched each and, for what it's worth, have come up with the following.

Sleep - as already said, trying 5-HTP with valerian.

Energy - there's a lot of misunderstanding/ignorance about the effects of ageing. Energy comes from protein, which the 'elderly' are said to need less of, and yet reduced protein can lead to muscle wasting as well as lower energy. I'm about to add protein in a form with little fat or carbs, used by body-builders, but is increasingly recognised as beneficial for anyone, any age. It's whey protein powder which can be made into shakes or drinks or added to food in other ways.

Its other benefit is weight loss, as one serving adds around 25 mgs of protein (that's a lot!) with litte fat or carbs. Some people on a controlled diet are able to miss a meal by taking this stuff. I'm not in a position to comment but am going to give it a 2 month trial. Check it out.

Walking - another tricky area to describe to GP's (I haven't bothered as I know I won't get anywhere). What I have discovered is that there are muscles in the legs that, if they don't get enough of  the right exercise begin to atrophy. This can lead to a condition known as 'off legs' (google 'off legs elderly' ). I think I've discovered which muscles I need to work on, and am exercising them daily, also going for short 'walks' either around the house or garden. 25 times around my garden path is about 1000 yards or 1km, so twice a day. Already my affected muscles are loosening up but I still have a way to go!

Oh dear! Another long post. I hope I've given you some ideas and some hope Rose? (And any others reading, of course.)

Bill.x

I meant to add, about whey protein that some users for diet purposes found that it helped make them feel fuller, less hungry, in other words not necessarily a meal replacer, even though some did adopt that.

It struck me that if 5-HTP can still be tolerated, it is also an appetite suppressor, reducing sugar/sweet cravings. Between the two of them there should be some chance of bringing weight down, still feeling full, and not losing energy? Just a thought.

Bill.x

Thank you Bill  (I prefer Will!) for your wise words. You are and have been of great support to me. You may not believe in God, but you sure act like "God-sent"; like the instrument of God!

I would like to try the Valerian mixture. Where did you buy yours? Online? Or at the health food shop? I suppose you will not be allowed to use brand names on this page. 

Someone else mentioned Cherry Juice. Must try that too... one day.

Re. the other symptoms I have associated with weight gain ie breathlessness and slow walking, I am sure I am right there. Actually, if you saw me you would not believe I am "overweight". But for my very tiny frame (1,50m) and having always weighed under 7 stones, the extra 10 kilos became a very heavy burden. Even two extra kilos used to be too much for me. But of course, compared to most women my "age" I still look very trim! So, my doctor never took seriously my weight claims (nor did the psychiatist, who being at least 20 years younger than me, was very short and dumpy indeed.!!!). How do you complain of being overweight to a practioner very nearly obese herself ???!!!!  Particularly next to me. 

However, the strain on my heart and lungs has been great, I am sure.  

It was also the case that I was extremely fit, jogging and climbing stairs two by two, walking briskly.... Always on my own as I could never find a walking partner that could keep up with me. 

Now, I must re-build my fitness slowly and patienlty. It feels like an uphill struggle, but you are an inspiration to me.

But enough of that.

I have, in the past, tried protein powders to try an beat sugar addiction during my days on Amit. But did not feel any significant improvement. Must try it again, as now, different set of circumstances. Again, how did you get hold of this product? Online??? I'll have a search. Hope my browser remains up to it.

I have since heard that broadband problems have been widespraed here, in the South East recently. Is this where you are from too? 

I have promised my son I'll phone BT if further crashes happen. I so rely on my PC for so many transactions and other activities! How did we used to live without it, in the old days. As a young student, I wrote all my essays and dissertations by hand or painstakingly typed them with two fingers and made many time-consuming mistakes!!!! Unthinkable now.

I am full of admiration for your own determination not to give in to so-called "old age". Only the young have that attitude. They bury us long before our time... and young doctors??? Well, it makes you wonder.

Love

Rose xx

Rose x 

Will.x

Will, I tried Amazon for herbal sleep remedies and Whey protein but the results were astronomical. Too much choice= don't know which to choose!

I feel a it overwhelmed right now. I think I need a cold shower!

PS: I am sure I tried twice to write to you, but cannot find evidence that it was safely posted!

Hi again.

Disappointing to find last post deleted without knowing why, when only intention is to help people get off life destroying drugs.

As a guide to my costs to compare with your 'astronimical' findings, they would amount to £2.50 pm for 5-HTP, £10 pm for whey and £1 pm for sleep aid tabs. For me, the whey is on trial though some might find it of  benefit for weight reduction. So, for better sleep at £3.50 per month it is an absolute bargain, although that situation too is still in a trial state, but 2 months down the line and it's still looking good.

If this forum has a hidden agenda leading to its unfathomable censorship criteria I'll maybe look for another.

Let me know what you think about those costs?

Will

Will,

"Astronomical" did not refer to costs but to the sheer array of choice. 5-HTP was very affordable but, the issue I have about the other supplements is so many are available, and in so many combinations. How can I choose? I will try again later when I have rested and calmed down!

I might be right about water retention, as I did not take my 5-HTP dose last night and ended up with "pints" down the drain today -if you get my gist!

Result: I am extreme;y ratty to day!!!

Perhaps "grumpy" is, after all, an inevitable feature of ageing!!! Run for cover!!!

Yes it does seem that the "censorship" is very much random and capricious. You will not be allowed to tell me where you are going, if going somewhere else: it will be censored!!!!

Blessings

Rose x

Hi Rose

Have just discovered this post of yours that I somehow missed (see my later posts). Maybe it was taking a long time to moderate.

If shop names are OK to mention, my valerian is part of a combination along with hops and Passion Flower. I'm EA but there are branches in SE so try searching Savers in your area. Theirs come in a green box at around £2 for 60, with Herbal Store Sleep Aid title.

Not all protein powders are equal, I'm afraid. If you'd like details of the one I'm about to try, it will provide 25 mgs of protein per serving giving 33 per 1 kg. Cost £10 per kg so just over a month's supply.

So right about 'old age' and how it's seen by others. You're as old as you  feel, but if you feel rotten, like from poor sleep, that's bound to affect how you feel about yourself. As a youngster (compared to me) you should still have plenty of go, but sleep deprivation can have drastic effects. I can understand why it's used as a means of torture!

Re broadband and 'the Internet of things' - it's worrying how dependent we have become on such a vulnerable means of communication. Ask British Airways! I have to admit I couldn't manage the charity work I'm involved in without a laptop, the Internet, e-mail et al!

Was taught touch typing at school (ah - that was......80 years ago!) but it comes in useful now. PC's have rotten keyboards compared to the mechanical typewriters of old. Having said that, young people can fly around their iPhones/smartphones or tablets with amazing speed and just two thumbs!

Hope this gets posted! Look forward to hearing from you.

Will.x

Hi Rose, Will & Amanda

I did send a post a few days ago but it doesn't seem to have been

posted. I'm currently travelling through Greece so don't always have

internet access.

I won't rewrite my last email but it was basically updating with Rose

& Amanda and thanking Will/Bill for all of the 5-HTP info. I took

forward to giving that a go once I'm completely off Ami (as I see

from other posts that I can't take it while I'm still taking Ami).

Amanda, how's your tapering going?

After 7 weeks at 17.5mg I'm now ready to cut down again and

tonight is my first night at 15mg. I'm a really hoping I don't see too

much sleep disturbance with this reduction. I haven't wanted to go

down further while I was still on the move but now I've got 16 days

on the island of Naxos so it's my best opportunity to give it a go. As

with all of my previous reductions I'll stay on 15mg for 6 weeks then

go down to 12.5mg.

Cheers

Sheena

Hello Sheena, I tried to reply to you earlier, but it has all disappeared. I think I have worked out why, but too long to explain. 

I will be briefer this time. 

Well done for reaching Naxos!

The best person to ask about 5-HTP in combination with Amit is Will.  

I think I too have read somewhere that the two are not to be taken together. However, you might find that switching from Amit to 5-HTP might help the withdrawal process. But don't take my word for it. 

All the best

Rose

Hi Rose, I had a great sleep last night on my first night at 15mg. I

was exhausted though after all the travel and festivities lately.

Hopefully I will keep sleeping well. It's nice to know that 5-HTP is

there as a possible backup when I start losing sleep later. That

really is the main problem for me. I can deal with any other

withdrawals as long as I can get some sleep.

?

Hello Sheena, Well done with your success at reducing Amit. I m so pleased for you. It's best you stick to your planned regime that mess about with alternatives, at least at this stage. 

I guess, I am the fortunate oddball not to have suffered any withdrawal from Amit. As you know I went CT, and that as it.

I think I have worked out why messages diappear. If you don't click on the right link, ie directly in answer to the person, you cannot send messages.

 think this morning, I clicked on the first message (the earliest in my inbox) and it was Will's message even though I did find your message on that page! I suppose it is a security measure, to prevent to much criss crossing amongst patients or messages! Hope I am right on this, as I too, have lost several messages, which is more than frustrating when you have spent an hour composing them!

All the best Sheena. I wish I could join you in Naxos. Is this for pleasure or for work? Or both?

Rose

Hi Rose, I'm here for 16 days having a rest. No work involved at all.

This is a long trip with quite a few events along the way so I thought

this would be a good chance to relax with l can.

I can't remember any of my withdrawal symptoms from last time (7

years ago) but I will note them down here if I get any. The lack of

sleep is the big one for me. That's why I'm tapering so slowly to give

myself a chance to relearn how to sleep without Ami in small stages.

So far so good.

Will, I won't write too much in case my message gets lost again in cyber space. Just briefly, for the first time in years, and unaided by meds, I slept like a log last night.... And for many hours (10 hours???). My message to Sheena explains some more! 

For me 5-HTP did it.   What else? I feel great today. 

If I understand well, you are taking both Nitrazepam with 5-HTP. .. with obviously no unwanted interference. Let me know. 

This question is only because Sheena's earlier message made me think about this. Not that Sheena intends to take both at the same time. In fact I seem to have read somewhere (Wikipedia?) thay 5-HTP should not be taken with Ami. But obviously ok with Nitra.

Have a great day!

Rose x

Hello again Sheena.

Yes, like me sleep (or lack of) is the only "withdrawal" symptom for me too. You are doing the right thing. For me I could not go on with Amit and the ridiculous cravings for sugary foods that I experienced more and more in the last year or so. It was becoming crippling. 

But that stopped immediately I came off Amit and lost some weight too

(3  kilos now). I feel light years better for it.

Enjoy life in Paradise.

Rose 

On reading all of your messages, am i presuming that 5-htp is a wonder 'herbal remedy.'

Rose, Sheena et al

Very pleased to hear Rose, your sleep generally has greatly improved, allowing for to-be-expected ups and downs.

Re taking 5-HTP and amit, all advice is against taking 5-HTP with any antidepressant generally classified as Tricyclic (TCA's) or selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) as this combination can lead to harmful excess serotonin in the brain.

I'm not sure whether it is safe (for other reasons) with what I am taking - Nitrazepam - which is a benzodiazepine drug, but since my GP refused to discuss it with me as 5-HTP is not a prescribed medication I had to make my own decision.

it has been around for several decades with no serious side effects that I know of (ignore the bad press from a corrupt batch made in Japan 1989 which still prevails today!)

I think it's fair to say that one is or can become dependant on just about anything, so it's a matter of establishing if or how dangerous that can be. Natural/herbal remedies should be less harmful long term but there's too little research into them for positive evidence. I would rather be dependent on 5-HTP or valerian than any wretched drug, most of them increasing dependency with less effectiveness, but plus ghastly side effects, as these forums show.

I hope this answers the various questions posed? There's a heap of related information on the Internet where much of my info comes from.

Will.x

Hello again Will,

Just come home from the "drugstore", where I bought some Valerian ++, very cheaply, by the way. But at least I was not deterred by the sheer choice like on Amazon and elsewhere.

I will not take it this evening, as I want to see how I fare on 5-HTP alone. If I sleep like last night again, then I can just stick to that. 

Needlss to say that I never mix meds, not  even herbal ones, unless they come, tried and tested, in the same bottle.

I will keep you informed from time to time Will. Hope you continue to make good progress. Thank you again for all your invaluable information and your "miraculous" advice. You are truly God sent!!

I feel great!

Blessings

Rose x

Hello Rose

Great to hear how much better you feel, continuing to lose weight too! Well done!

You've helped raise my spirits after a few nights of poor sleep, not due to losing effect of 5-HTP but to my old problem of back pain. There's likely the added effect from tapering of sleep drug but am determined to keep that up. It's at a very slow rate.

I've always been a DIY person in the real sense of the word, and if that involves too much bending or lifting my back complains. Unfortunately it doesn't complain soon enough to stop whatever I'm doing when it's time to! This leads to back pain including during sleep a day or two later.

However my latest DIY - making an outdoor door step and painting some paving slabs to smarten them up has compensated for the effort involved. Looks quite smart now.

That old saying "use it or lose it" is very true. I simply haven't learned when to take a rest until it's too late! Am taking it easy today so hopefully will get better sleep tonight.

Keep up the good progress - are you getting about more, walking, as you said you once used to?

Will.x

Hello Will,

Excuse the dreadful cliche, but you are indeed the proverbial "sucker for punishment". This said not critically but admiringly! How can you put yourself through such gruelling tasks as painting the town red! (in this instance, painting slabs red!). Where do you get the energy?

I have thought of painting my garden slabs red too once, but I am now having them replaced (in the next month or so).

Pity about the back pain, but at least the result was worth it. Or was it?

I have myself experienced that delayed pain after too much exhertion.

It can be very sharp indeed. Fortunately, for me at last, it does not last more than 24 hours (except "tennis elbow", acquired while painting too vigorously my son's bedroom walls! I ended up having to have a steroid injection. It was miraculous how quickly it cured it!).

Well I am glad that you have a sense of achievement. It is so essential to keep going.

Hope you slept better last night. Don't forget to take care of yourself in all this flurry of activities! And please don't damage yourself -your back- doing it.

I imagine you must be a very tall person. I do believe that tall people are prone to back problems... and also falls. 

By the way, medical wisdom had it, years ago, that a "stoop" was a normal part of ageing and even memory loss (and getting "gaga". Now we know better, don't we? So, why should weight gain, less sleep be also categorised as "normal" part of ageing? Ridiculous isn't it?

I do hope attitudes to "old age" will gradually change in the next generations as we discover that nothing is "inevitable": Weight gain, grumpiness, slowing down, stooping, sleeping less etc... will be seen as avoidable, preventable and treatable degenerative disorders rather than the opposite. Doctors out there take note!!!! 

Long live the Joan Collins of this world and the Leslie Joseph's. We love you!!! And Joanna Lumley!!!! And Helen Mirren. And Judy Dench. And the Scottish actress -can't think of her name (Miss Jean Brodie). Ah yes Maggie Smith!. I cannot think of any gorgeous looking, older male celbs! Perhaps you can tell me Will!

And by the way, I am of the opinion that it is not the number of hours you sleep, but how you feel when you wake up. Tired, sluggish, in a bad mood? Or refreshed and raring to go!.

By the way again, the Bible teaches that "Life and Death are in your words". If you keep hearing and telling yourself that you are old, past it, washed up, decrepit, finished etc... then you will be!

Lots of incredibly old patriarchs in the Bible, all still "green" at the point of death!

To answer your question, because of my better and longer sleep the night before,  I took off yesterday and flew through the streets for my errands like a feather weight! It was astonishing!!! I have not walked like that for months! I might try a little jog on the seafront this afternoon as the weather is so gorgeous again to day!

Last night, I again slept soundly, "like a log" and for about 8 hours, after previously crashing on the sofa for a couple of hours! So, in total, I slept for 10 hours yesterday. I feel great, both physically and psychologically. It really makes me feel I have a future again! 

So, now my aim in life is to regain my former form and shape and defy the docs!!!! And outlive them all!... Thanks to you Will! I hope you too will continue to appreciate the benefits of 5-HTP. I hope my news is an encouragement to you too. 

Let me know how you are progressing (in-between thrashing around in the garden!): back, sleep, gardening etc... 

God bless

Rose x

Hello Rose

That's more or less what my daughter keeps telling me, and has little sympathy for me after I've explained what I've been doing that might have caused my back pain to flare up.

My excuse is that, opportunitist as I am, if I feel capable of doing something that needs to be done, then I go ahead and do it. That's more often the case if it's outdoor work and weather dependent.

But you are right, in spite of the effort/pain there is the sense of satisfaction of still being capable of doing something useful, and better still if the result is pleasing to look at remind yourself "I did that".

There are indeed several older male celebs, they don't come more gorgeous (for females) than Kirk Douglas 97, Sidney Poitier 90, Dick Van Dyke 91, Mel Brooks 90, and females add Kim Novak 84, Angela Lansbury 91, Olivia De Havilland 100 I believe! All looking good for a few more years.

So you flew like a feather........ wow, what a difference a few weeks makes from when you could hardly move around for lack of energy. Great to hear but don't do as I do, rather do as my daughter keeps advising and pace yourself.

Having said that, when age 75 my wife and I moved house (well, OK - bungalow) entirely on our own. I did all the packing and unpacking, to move into a new place with a garden to create from scratch, plus decorating every room once tired of all the uniform Magnolia walls. Energy was no problem then, but it became harder to find after 90.

Maybe I'll find some in the whey protein when it arrives although I may be a little optimistic about that, but it's worth trying. I also came across another interesting supplement described as "the essential amino acid that nobody's heard of". Well, quite a few have (although I hadn't, until now) and it's another one of those bodily products that comes via food but diminishes as we get older, much like serotonin, melatonin and much else that the brain needs. It's called Taurine, mostly from meat and fish but can be supplemented as tablets, or powder in a drink.

As it gets a good press from just about all who have written about it, I might give that a go as well, probably before trying whey, as it too can help with sleep but in a different way to 5-HTP.  It's also used by athletes to help recover more quickly from strains, apart from energy boosting. So, if it lives up to its promises, I can go off dashing around the garden or redecorate the bungalow without too much back discomfort (and pigs might learn to fly!!)

Will update you once I've dabbled with my new findings - worth trying anything once, more to gain than lose.

Take care.

Will.x

Hello Will,

Nice to hear from you.

Hope you slept better last night with lesser back pain.

I did not. Why? I am not sure. Well, I think I might be able to work it out!

But result: am tired and "unwilling".

I'll write more this evening.

Rose x

Have a good day

Hello Rose.

Thanks, yes I did sleep better. Pain never really goes away - just worse some times than others. One thing I have noticed is that I don't nod off during daytime as had been happening, so I put that down to better quality sleep, regardless of how long or short.

You may have ups and downs in sleep patterns - it can take a while to readjust when you've had such a long period of poor sleep. I did wonder whether your recent 'flying around' was a little too early to be letting off steam, much as you enjoyed doing so! I would have done the same in your circumstances (or worse, sucker for punishment that I am).

Try pacing yourself as my daughter advises me (which I tend to ignore, to my cost). That way you should even out the highs and lows of your sleep, energy and mood patterns.

I'm sure you'll soon be feeling on the up again and gradually find yourself with a more settled and confident outlook. More energy flows from that. You've achieved so much and there's much more to look forward to. Accentuate the positive!

Sleep tight tonight, have a good day tomorrow. One day at a time..

Will.x

Hello Will, 

Thank you for your concern.

The reason I did not sleep was a raging toothache! I took aspirin and then woke up after just 4 hours, not in pain, but wide awake and a little bit "jittery". 

I think it was because of the aspirin... the only pain relief that I tolerate.

Anyway, made an emrgency appointment with dentist who diagnosed an abscess. I am now on antibiotics -or will be when I collect them from the pharmacy as none were available in stock yesterday. I did not have the energy to start shopping around for them, plus the traffic was horrendous!  

(beautiful weather, half-term holiday, the beach... = horrendous traffic and swarm of people and children all over the place!... All ok... unless you have bad toothache!!!!))

I slept a bit better last night. 

It is a bit unfortunate as I felt so well otherwise, even though my tooth was beginning to hurt. I even went for a jog on the seafront, on one of the most beautiful days of the year so far. But by the evening, I started to feel feverish and the pain had spread to my ear and throat!

I'll let you know how I am progressing once I have taken the AB.

Yes, I am sure that apart from this unfortunate glitch, I will be better again. I will have to be. I have no choice!!! 

You too have a good day. Keep in touch

Rose x

Sorry Will, Rose again!

Re-reading my latest post to you, I realise it was a little self-centred (all about me!). 

Yes, I realise that it will take a while to readjust my sleep patterns. 

I too have noticed considerable improvement in my ability to concentrate, for example I noticed how much more I can take on board all the political arguments of the day. I used to drift off and lose the thread after a very short span. Now, I feel I could run for my constituency!!!! (run as a potential MP that is -not a marathon , in spite of my winged feet.)

I am having to "pace myself", per force. I still have to work on my fitness and stamina. 

Yet I try to remain positive and optimistic (like Bing)

But you know only full well yourself that you have to "make hay while the sun shines". So true in this country when it comes to outdoors pursuits. This said both literally and metaphorically, like making the most of your increased energy and of the current beautiful weather...  before it too late!  

I am reading a book by Dr Michael Mosley about what he calls "the clever gut". It is fascinating. Please get hold of it if you can.

I also watched with a great deal of interest a programme on BBC (one or two -can't remember exactly) a few days ago. It is called "a Doctor in the House". Please catch up if you have not seens it already. All about gut bacteria and hormones... The gut has all the answers

Rose x

Hello Rose

It's of some comfort (ouch!) to at least know what the real cause is of your recent sleep breakup following a good run of satisfying shuteye and energy benefits.

Painful while it lasts but something positive (there I go again) to know how to deal with. Have you ever tried clove oil for toothache or sore gums? It's not a cure, but it can help to dull tooth pain. Unpleasant taste so need to apply with a cotton bud. Old fashioned (like me) but it works for some, including me.

I hope your AB gets to work quickly to deal with the infection, but guess there may be an underlying problem that created the abscess and may still need to be dealt with.

I've watched a couple of 'Doctor in the house' series, which I find interesting, along with other programs of a similiar nature in recent months. There are certainly some very unpleasant (to say the least) illnesses/health conditions around, fortunately - except for those unlucky to live with them - quite rare. I suppose that's their interest to viewers, how people cope and deal with such traumatic, life threatening health problems.

I mostly like Dr Mosley's presentations, and it's further surprising to learn that he is also living/coping with heart and circulation problems. I found his last program on sleep disappointing when, around that time I'd discovered the importance of serotonin, but he made no mention of this.

I know that the sort of health problems I would like to see given more publicity, especially on TV as they are easier to absorb, aren't popular enough to make the necessary ratings for a TV program, which is a pity

The news is increasingly dominated by what is becoming a crisis - healthcare and support for the elderly/aged/dementia and all else that's age related. While ageing is obviously a fact of life, I think far too little is known, due to too little research being done, about the ageing process. Living longer is fine, if fit and able enough to be worthwhile and enjoy it, but that's not the case for millions of people. When out and about, they are everywhere, and in growing numbers.

There should be much more research into the improved quality that's possible, whether by diet, exercise, or the means to supplement/adjust imbalances brought about by the ageing process. One aspect in particular is loss of energy, which in turn leads to loss of muscle, brain activity and a whole complex of chemical, neurological processes that govern how the body operates, with the brain the driving force.

The findings I've come across just about sleep have brought up a swathe of related or similar brain activities that have strong influences on what is put down to ageing, when it can often be traced to a reduction of certain amino acids capable of being boosted to slow the process. I know it's only putting off the inevitable, but personally think it could lead to more fulfilling lives at the later stage of life, leading to a much shorter period of final inactivity.

I'll get off my soapbox now, and will check out the book you recommend - I  hope it doesn't want to turn me into a vegan, I don't eat much meat apart from poultry, but like fish and dairy too. My weight is constant so it must suit me.

In the light of what I've recommended, I agree that the gut has a lot of answers, but feel that the brain has a lot more. It's logical, isn't it?

Have a lovely weekend.

Bill.x

Good morning Wil,

You'd be surprised to hear that Dr Mosley calls the gut our "second brain". This rather, dark, murky, unsavoury part of our anatomy, that it too distasful to mention, is so sophisticated and contains so much information and so many answers about our health that it may well be our second brain. Sayings such as "gut reaction", "gut instinct", "I feel it in my guts", may well be more that just metaphors (accorging to Dr M).

On a previous post I wrote that it seems incredible that serotonin, that very elusive and delicate substance of life and happiness itself, is actually stored.... in the gut! Not the heart, not the spleen, not the brain, but the gut!!!!

What I like about Dr Mosley is that he does expose and explode many myths about health. 

I do hope you can get hold of the book. I know you'll enjoy it (available as Kindle edition on Amazon). It is his latest publication. I did buy a previous book by him, about insulin resistance. That was because of my constant hypoglycemic episodes.

I found his insight into the whole subject quite fascinating, particularly about the role of insulin on obesity. I really believe now, that, at the time of my "hypo's", the doctor should have checked, not my sugar levels but my insulin levels. If I understood Dr M well, that is a better indication of developping Type 2 diabetes.

You are not going to get that kind of information from your GP.

His programme on insomnia was also refreshing as he was prepared to look at alternatives, more natural remedies, to barbiturates, hypnotic drugs and the likes. I didn't notice the no mention of serotonin because, of course, I did not know about it then. But I wrote previously, that talking about insomnia so publicly gave credance to all the poor insomniacs in the world who suffer obscurely, never to be taken seriously and be told to "get a grip" or "to pull themselves together" etc... I used to find this so damaging.

Perhaps you should write to Dr M and "enlighen" him. I mean it. Seriously, you should write to him. You have almost become an expert on the subject. I am sure he would be delighted to hear your views (which are more facts than views).

Actually, the medical profession has always known about serotonin. Hence the proliferation of SSRI drugs. I was once prescribed the most famous brand (you know the one!), but within days I felt absolutely terrible! I experienced the worst panic attacks ever and great parananoia. The whole world was against me and out to get me. It was really a "psychotic episode" in my life... and a psycahiatrist had the gall to tell me that "I did not give the drug a chance to work". When I think about it, I am disgusted. So, now I was rsponsible for my "psychosis"!!!!

Fortunately, when it comes to my sanity, I have the final word! 

To come back to me, the AB have started to work already, I did not need aspirin and also slept better. I already feel a marked improvement in the jaw area. I am going back to my dentist in two weeks time and we shall discuss a possible extraction (I dread that!), and maybe an implant. Do you have any thoughts about "underlying causes'? I understood it was, because "with age", the gum was less strong and allowed for fragments of food to get impacted. Any other possible cause???

Needless to say that Thursday and Friday were lost as far as I am concern. No sleep, no energy, no happiness, no going out -except to the pharmacy. I felt miserable!

However, I have slept a lot more last night... but in two stages. 6 hours to start with, then a break of about an hour (during which I researched "the Durrels" on Google) and then another two hours. 

I know that this is not good enough for me. I don't feel refreshed. What I need is at least 8 hours unbroken sleep! And I'd rather not nap during the day. (Only old people do that!!!!!).

But the good news is that any sleep is better than none and of course it is all thanks to 5-HTP!

So, better sleep, better moods, better concentration, greater confidence, lighter weight, greater energy... absolutely no cravings at all... what more  can one want????

By the way, while waiting for my AB to be dispensed at the pharmacy yesterday, I had my BP tested. I was pleasantly surprised to find it had gone down... after going up a bit while on Amit.

My BP used to be on the low side before. Even during pregnancy, it hardly ever varied!

But, and we are in agreement on this, I will not be told that "for my age", I am doing rather well etc... No. For my age, I want to feel like a twenty year old!!!! Ageing is not an option, Ageing is not inevitable. That's my motto from now on!!!

Regarding Amit, you once wrote and said "it is evil... IMHO". What does IMHO mean????

Now you too keep hanging on to your youth and continue to look for elixirs. Like you, I am convinced that "old age" is curable, reversible and only exist in the minds of arrogant youth.... and doctors!!!!

Until next time

Have a great weekend! Another one bathed in sunshine. I will take the bus to do my shopping as here it gets thick with traffic and with very few possibilities of finding a parking space!!!

Rose x

Hello Rose.

I hope you slept well in spite of the frustration of seeing your post waiting so long to be moderated. It's especially irritating when you haven't a clue why,  so it can be avoided in future.

I don't think size matters as we and others have all made lengthy posts, and if there is a limit there should be a character countdown to show how  many are left. Maybe moderator staff thin down during a weekend causing a backlog - who knows.

If it's a nice day where you are, go out and let your cares blow away on the beach or promenade if close enough (and not too many cars/holiday makers if the way).

I'm still pursuing interest in the latest lead I came across, another neurotransmitter/amino acid called taurine. Like 5-HTP and other similar substances (mostly aminos) that have important roles in the brain's regulatory functions and often interlinked with other aminos, it has a long known history, but far too little empirical research.

One encouraging aspect of it is that it's said to be well tolerated by the body and any excess is excreted via the liver. That doesn't necessary make it safe, but doses found effective are well below what might be unsafe levels.

Of interest to some is that it's been found to be very good for migraines, although, as always, not everyone is a winner. My research found trials going back several decades, and user findings - mostly positive - up to 10 years ago.

You remember I expressed my views about lack of research into ageing? Taurine is said to be one of the body's life extenders, helping slow down the inevitable wasting of muscle as we age. This becomes a vicious circle of events leading to skeletal weaknes, falls/broken or fractured bones, hence loss of mobility further weakening and wasting of all-important muscle. That's perhaps a simplistic overview but it makes my point about a gradual loss of an essential brain chemical (neurotransmitter) that brings about debilitating changes in other parts of the body,

The irony of this situation is that the ageing process itself lowers the production of these vital amino acids, so where this is the case, supplementation is the only way to top them up. I'm not sure if they can be measured by blood tests as we're talking about what's in the brain's blood, not the body's blood, due to the blood brain barrier. Complex, isn't it?

I have rabbited on enough for now, except to say I'm giving it a try, as it's also a sleep neurotransmitter, plus potential for helping maintain muscle tone. Suggested trial period is at least 30 days so will see if I'm one of the lucky ones to benefit.

Hope your gum problem not too uncomfortable.

Will.x

Hello Will,

Nice to hear from you inspite of breakdown of communication with this web. 

Hope my post will be released soon.

I don't think I said anything offensive. I praised Dr M Mosley, but I did reiterate my grudge against psychiatrists and other "psy". ... I suppose a stance that does not go down well in a forum on mental health!!!

I am sending you this small portion to see what happens and will resume as soon as it has gone... Just testing!

R x

Once again, my message has been lost! 

I think the time ran out as it was rather long....

You never know.... Never mind. "Tomorrow is another day"

Good night

Rose x

Hello Rose

It's a shame if your post of honest opinions based on experience are in any way responsible for being withheld, although it still shows as 'waiting'. 3 of mine were 'deleted' with 2 I know containing harmless links to other informative web sites. It's what Sir Tim Berners-Lere invented it for!

I won't ramble on this time, though not much else to add to my last post, except that having spent a couple of hours in the garden this afternoon replacing hanging baskets and tired border plants with fresh colour, I do feel less tired.

It's too soon after starting my added treatment of whey and taurine to say it's working, so I'll simply say that it's looking promising.

There's a picture attached to give you some idea of how it looks at its best in summer. Hope you like it, and with your name I'm sure you have a liking for flowers! This one has lots of roses.

Have a good night.

Will.x

ps

I'm not sure if it's relevant, but it may be and, if you haven't been doing it, try it and see if it helps. Some website set-ups like users to sign out, but many people just exit without doing so.

Since practising this after posting, none of my posts have suffered more than a couple of hours of 'moderating'. Coincidence, maybe, but worth trying if you are a 'frexit' person (forum exit )

Good morning Will,

I hope you too had a good night sleep. I had heard of taurine before but never tried it. Recently, when I was trying to buy 5-HTP on Amazon, it came up in a compound with 5-HTP, but the description did not give the dosage, so I decide on another product, 5-HTP, pure and simple, 200mg.

I will give it a go, if only for the other benefits you describe. I do need ot re-build myself in more ways than one. Or rather cling ot my remaining youth!!!

Slept remarkably well, considering how frustrated I was to lose my posts -all long.. and I believe interesting.

I won't attempt to re-write them. I have already forgotten the details. But it will all come back to me in bits and pieces, and I will eventually reconstrust all my points to you.

Thank you for the lovely flowers!

Yes, you guessed well I love flowers. I also love scents and gardens. My garden usually looks splendid but this year, I am having some renovations done at the back of my house. It is taking ages as the "boss" has to co-ordinayed all the tradesmen involved -electricians, builders, plumbers, tilers etc... and the garden looks like a wasteland. I cannot not do much with it until the builders have completed the works. Am up early today as I am waiting for a team to arrive at 8am. Fortunately the weather has been shining on the project since the beginning of April and hasn't hampered its progression.

Once again, you are remarkable in your desire to achieve things or at least keep on top. I bet your garden looks a treat too.

I stop now. Will resume later with more rambling thoughts.

Please do read 'The clever guts diet" by Dr M. A complete revelation to me and something that really vindicates me. My dislike of shrinks is not entirely unfounded!!! Available as download on Amazon, very cheaply.

Have a beautiful day, pain-free and energy-packed.

Rose x

PS: Cannot find "sign out"

Good morning Rose

While I can't say I slept last night as well as I would have liked, or in fact as well as I have on occasions since 5-HTP, at least I know the reason. The garden work involved a lot of back bending which inflames the worn right hand SIC (sacro iliac joint) and source of my back pain. But I was careful, as I am all too aware of this problem and didn't overdo it.

Before going any further, I should correct my spelling of the Internet inventor due a slip of a finger, to properly name him Sir Tim Berners-Lee. I guess you knew that anyway but I like to get things right.

Re sign out, scroll to top of page,it's at top of green banner heading. One other tip when you sign on, you are likely presented with a message at foot of screen asking you to agree to the forum Terms & Conditions - just tick or click it before you go to posts.

You've said before about 'astronomical' choices on Amazon, which I found not only applied to varities of 5-HTP but also to combinations with other ingredients, and not least to prices which can indeed be astromical. Your 200 mg dose is mostly rated as typical, but it can be obtained in 50 mg and 100 mg for those who may need less. I spent a lot of time scouring all suppliers to find a product that was from a highly respected source, pure, made from Griffonia seed, well-priced and 24 hour delivery. You can't ask for more than that. My source of 120 x 100 mg costs £9.99. A keyword-search - just 2 words - oxford and vitality will find them. I'm satisfied with 1 tablet plus 1 valerian compound, and can always go back to 2 x 5-HTP if needed.

Glad you liked the picture - a side view from my kitchen door towards the garden but not of the garden. It's not too large, more than enough for me and as low maintenance as possible.

My interest in photography goes back to when I acquired a black market camera for 1000 cigarettes in Hamburg around 1946. Digital now of course but as the garden is so handy I try to take unusal pictures. Lots are of insects, close up, and one is of a Garden Spider's view of the garden. I hope you don't find it off-putting!

I will get the book you recommmend to see if there's anything I can learn from it, and hope your garden reconstruction goes full steam ahead to give you a pleasant place to relax in, away from the hassle going on all around.

Have a great day.

Will.x

Hello Will, thanks for further info.

Quick up-date: Haven't taken Valerian. Managing well without it so far.

AB are working a treat. But not dealing with the "root" of the problem. (Fitting metaphor). 

BP checked and found to be excellent. It used to be slightly higher on AMIT. 

Not quite sure about waterworks. Need to "study" my habits more closely. Certainly does not feel as efficent as when on AMIT.

Sorry about ellyptic style, but time is of essence.

Typing mistakes are all too common. But for a learned man like you, and a proficient typist, must be unacceptable!

I am waiting with excitement to find out whether you are able to beat "old age".

You should get in touch with Dr M. Unlike you, beacause I was not "au fait" with Serotonin (even though I had heard of it), I did not notice the absence of a mention. But come to think of it, Dr M needs to be put up to speed on the subject.

My post about my horrible experience, some twenty years ago with a well-known brand of SSRI"s was deleted!!!

Hope this one gets through.

In a hurry

R x

PS: I sleot with a huge hairy spider in my bedroom last night. Not in my bed... but sitting on top of my curtain. I had the window open all day and it must have found its way in. Am not afraid of spiders. In fact, I protect them.

Have found "sign out". Are you American by any chance????

If it's any consolation, I am French, but ahve lived here since 1968. Not ready for Brexit I am afraid.

I like "frexit". For me this morning it meant "fretting while trying to exit"!!

Bonjour (encore) Rose

Non, je ne suis pas Américain - and to save my red face if attempting to use French will leave it there. I was quite good with it at school, only to find it hopeless when up against colloquial French in Normandy. I did better with German learned 'on the hoof' so to speak (sorry for pun).

I'm London born, spent several years probably not far from where you live when in Army. Post war moved to a New Town, now retired in East Anglia.

I compose newsletters for the small charity I work for so I have to take spelling/grammar seriously, even though they are not my strong points.

'Learned' - afraid not. War declared when age 15 ended my then Central School education (midway between Senior and Grammar), mum, a working widow with 3 children to raise needed income support, so I went to work. Ended up (then age 50) in computer management which, in this modern age, now serves me well.

Out of curiosity, you said you had been a teacher, what were your subjects?

Glad to hear AB doing it's job and hope any subsequent treatments to treat cause go well.

I feel sure I am on to something directly or indirectly related to the ageing process but it's such a hard subject to pin down. Whatever I read, research papers or articles, including subjects like 5-HTP, amino acids, all conclude the same - more research needed.

You are not alone being not ready for Brexit, as I fear many others will eventually discover even if currently 'Leavers' but it's a long wait-and-see.

Will.x

I attached a picture I thought  you might like but it didn't appear with above post, so have tried again.

Hello Will,

Glad to see my lost post has finally arrived. It will save me repeating myself. I promise you though that I will give you examples of how the "psy" of this world have let me and others down.

This page is getting very "jumpy" this evening ????

Does it ever happen to you?

Won't keep you long with this post as it is getting late. And also wary that it might get lost in outer soace again.

I am impressed with your French, particularly the acute accent!!! 

I also enjoyed the biographical notes. I would be fascinated to read more. 

Have spent a lot of time riveted to the TV, listening to the PM impressive speech this morning.

I think NI and Scotland, both for different reasons, will find Brexit tough, and the Welsh. What an incredibly tangled situation. Worse than a divorce.

I was very saddened, having slept like a Princess Sat-Sun, to wake up to the news of the London atrocities.

My builders have got on famously today and it started to rain just as they were finishing for the day.

Yes I do go out every day, for brisk walks, as I have done most days of my life since I was about 20. I enjoy the outdoors and the exhertion. Not so much recently for the reasons I have outlined previously. But hope to be getting better and better gradually. 

You don't sound as if you go out much... except to tour your garden. Do you see your family very often? 

Will, this page is getting longer and longer, because of our posts you and I. How about starting a new page. My original one, the one I started myself, reads something like " I have been on Amitriptyline for five years and put on 10 kilos..." See of you can pick it up. I had but for some reasons I ended up on this one, started by Stephen and so it went from there.

I'll ry it right now.

I let you go to bed and say "Bonsoir Monsieur!"

Bien amicalement

Rose x

Good morning Will, I hope you slept better than I did. I was woken up, with a start, at 3.35 am by a huge clattering noise, as if the roof had fallen over my head. I got up, thinking there was a burglar in the house somewhere, but no. I couldn't see anything outside as it was pitched dark. 

I went back to bed but couldn't sleep as I had had a surge of adrenalin. It is not 6.30 am and I have not gone back to sleep. I did get up again at 4.15 and by then it was beginning to be daylight. Through a back window I could now see what the noisy culprit had been. It was a pile of debris in the "builders yard" that had been thrown down by the strong wind.

The weather has turned really foul. I stayed up to watch the news and saw that it was bad on the East coast. So, you too must have been affected. For the light sleepers that we both are, you and I, it is not the king of weather we want.

Now I feel sleepy again and will try to sleep some more. 

Sorry about my jumpy messages and sorry I did not pick up on your photographic interest. You mus tell me more. These days I rely on my children for photographs and they put everything on line,,,, Too much new technology for me to grasp. 

Must get back to bed.

Hope you manged to sleep well last night.

Write soon

R x

Good morning Rose

I wrote a great deal here in response, agreed the need to find another topic with fewer posts as this one has got so long. I had to leave my half-finished post to search, and after finding one, returned here to find all I had written had disappeared!

How about moving? I created a discussion several weeks ago about overweight and obesity that never caught on. Scroll up to top right box "Search thousands of discussions" and type Overweight. This should bring up a list, and 5th down is Weight Loss - Intentional with post O & O = Overweight & Obesity. Make a response and I can pick that up from there.

W.x

You made it to the new forum subject, have left a short response there for you to pick up.

Will.x

Hello Will, 

I take it you've dropped out of this page altogether. Let me know if you receive this post. Rose

I'm very concerned by the no mention of serotonin syndrome. i have been on amit for a few years, but always looking for ways to sleep naturally, funnily enough last week i ordered magnesium 375, and 5-htp 200, the magnesium arrived first znd i took 1 tablet, best night sleep in yrs, then next day arrived 5-htp, took 1 + magnesium. luckily i decided to chance skipping my 10mg amit, what happened? zero sleep heart palpitations and twitchy muscles throughout my body. this is serotonin syndrome, and it would have been far more severe had i taken my amit. , 3 days later still twitchy, and 3hrs sleep. DO NOT MIX AMIT AND 5-HTP, IT'S VERY DANGEROUS. Magnesium is brilliant, and so maybe 5-htp once you're off amits, both enhance serotonin in the body, dangerous taken together