"You're not depressed"... and so on

When it comes to your case, Hypercat, you're one of these people I'm describing when I say "listen, if you're struggling, if you are depressed - suicidal, even - you won't be on here talking because you'll be off, busy elsewhere trying to kill yourself"

The attitude you have when you are depressed is the same as mine - I'm just a shell, there is nothing inside me, what is the point of me? etc, and seeing through that is immensely difficult. You are, on the other hand, still alive which must mean you have some tools and some survival instinct. Mine is accepting what I have, what I feel and that, in time, it will pass - it's something I developed through years of hard work, surviving (actually) 3 seperate suicide attempts before realising I'm too intelligent and strong to do it properly and for good.

I think the people this thread is directed at are those who wish to tell us how depressed they are when in reality aren't depressed; just unhappy, bored, lack some sense of fulfillment, need to re-examine their lifestyle a bit; whatever. The sort of advice I give to these people is guided self-help more than anything else. I'm not a counsellor or a therapist (do you think I'd be here if I were?), I've just developed a very particular set of skills to deal with depression and anxiety over the years, have done a lot of self-examination, research, and have been told that all of the methods I use for coping with depression and anxiety are wrong by just about every so-called professional I've ever met (approx 30 of them in 15 years) and yet somehow, miraculously, I've come out of the other side. I can imagine it must be quite challenging for professionals to hear that I've achieved all that I've achieved without their help.

When it comes to the clinical side of depression, I understand perfectly what you mean. Those feelings of total demotivation; the sense that the only light you can bear to see on that particular morning is the subdued daylight that attempts to penetrate the curtains you have closed only to find itself struggling to find itself through the filter of the quilt that covers your face. In fact, you can't think of anything worse than opening your eyes. In fact, whether you open your eyes or not won't make a difference because you're too busy thinking about what is the best and most efficient way to never have the ability to open your eyes again.

I know. I've been there. Which pains me all the more when I see thread after thread of hypochondriacs who fundamentally aren't struggling as much as others; it's akin to wasting a GP's time because you have a mild cough - these are the people who just need to have their heads banged together. They need support all the same, but it's a far more simplistic approach. Those with real problems, I can usually see from what they describe. They're the ones who get private messages and real support. They're the ones who don't even make it to the GP surgery because they're in the hands of the crisis team.

If you believe that professionals cannot help you then why consult 30 of them?A good professional would not be surprised at what you have achieved without them. They would have seen that you were capable of it when they first met you. There are clients who do not need therapists beause they are smart, mature, pro active, but not many.

Therapists are there for the other 98% of the population and some of them are not smart enough to do their job properly. It doesnt follow that everyone here is a patient and nobody here is a therapist, you are just assuming that.

You do not have to be unknowledgable and needy to come here, but most here are.

I didn't say I was suicidal at the moment boing and when I was like that I certainly wasn't on here or anywhere except inside my own head.  I know those feelings don't last that long for me but accept they can for others.  

I have no one to talk to about my depression and learn about it except people on line so to me this place and others like it are lifesavers.  It makes me feel more connected to the universe and reaffirms that I am not the only person suffering from depression. 

You work under the assumption that every problem can be solved if you only look deep enough inside yourself but that is wrong.  We are all different and some people are not so self aware, and some things cannot be solved.  

If your aim is to help people it certainly doesn't help me to hear that I am not depressed at the moment but unhappy.  

The trick to helping others lies in trying to recognise what stage they are at the moment and tailor your response acordingly. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to the person and instead of being helpful comes across as a lack of understanding.  We are all at different stages here so one response doesn't fit all.

"If you believe that professionals cannot help you then why consult 30 of them?"

The two biggest problems within the NHS when it comes to the mental health care side of things is 1. lack of continuity, and 2. professionals with an axe to grind responding to the pressures they are under having so little funds available; lack of professionalism, essentially.

First of all, it would be wrong for me to say 'every professional is useless' - that's not the case. Based on my own subjective experience, I just seem to have experienced the absolute worst and it left a bitter aftertaste in my mouth because I was never made aware that I could actually complain about it, to anybody. When I finally did complain, I actually found that the previous preconception that nobody would take me seriously because I was a "psychiatric patient" was wrong, and I achieved something through making a complaint which increased the standard of care within my area's trust.

Thankfully, I'm an intelligent person; I'm also painfully self-aware. I'm also one to question so-called authority when I feel it is being abused, and can see the glaring hypocrisy and nonsense that seeps through the words of these so-called professionals who do not have the time or patience for me when I question the structural integrity in the building blocks of what is ultimately their 'debate', which is 'here is the problem; here's how you solve it'.

A lot of people - sorry, A LOT of people do not have any of those traits, which is why so many professionals get away with such outright negligence, and it's criminally shameful.

When it comes to the standards of care these days, the organisation is a lot more harsh when it comes to the sort of care it offers, and if those professionals consider you to be "unreceptive" to their standard of care, they dismiss you. In other words, if you think to question them - even if what they say is unrealistic or incompatible (for instance, a psychiatrist would tell me at 21, after listening to me for 15 minutes to get a job, as if that were the answer to everything, despite not knowing why, at the time, I felt I couldn't work) - you are left completely in the dark by them.

In my case, I saw close to 30 (and it's not an accurate number; the reality is maybe 24 or 25 different people) because since around 15 years old, I've been passed from pillar to post with different services. Counsellors would move to different jobs, psychiatrists and psychologists would often be locum, different therapists would offer different expertise or there would be personality conflicts followed by re-referrals...

It's not unrealistic or an exaggeration of events for me to say how it's possible this could have happened. It just has.

The reality is, I've done absolutely everything I could to be receptive to what limited care was available to me within the NHS, and I, like many, have suffered - not because of my mistakes but theirs. I've suffered more because I thought to question it, but then, if supplied with half the absolute garbage I've been given, and with the traits I have, most with any sense would.

If I don't know something and somebody teaches me something new, I am open-minded to it. What professionals are surprised by, with me, is that I'm already about 5 steps ahead of them before I've even walked through their door. That is not a fault on my part and yet professionals make it feel as though it is.

The difficulty for them is - now, particularly - when they have so little time and such limited resources available to work with me, with so little tools at their disposal, how do they get through what I have learned myself before they can apply it to their own knowledge of psychology? And how can they make their clinical studies compatible with my more holistic and humanistic approach?

The answer - they can't, which is why I've seen close to 30 professionals, and I use the term 'professional' loosely.

It's not up to me to learn to speak their language; it's up to them, as professionals to learn to understand mine. If they don't have the time nor the patience, that's not my problem.

You say you are intelligent and proactive. In which case when you have a job (I dont know any intelligent person who does not have a very good job, career, with a very good income) spend some of that on going privately. It makes more sense than paying for luxuries that do not help with your situation such as a holiday. Why rely on the NHS?

Your health should be that important to you that you do whatever it takes to get better. I know people who are very intelligent who did not need to go to nhs or anyone because they were able to sort it out themselves, others admitted they were less capable and paid for the help they need.

It really does not matter which you are so long as you get better. It is very easy to say so much but one ounce of help is worth a ton of thinking about it.

Congradulations you just met an intelligent person who doesnt have a job at all and to be honest with you the private sector is just as useless as the nhs an ive done both which were both bloody useless.

that said i got on more with the private shrink then the nhs but thats only because instead of sitting in a stuffy office we would be behind the office shooting hoops because at the time i was in school but even he knew he couldnt help me.

Carmel, the reason I don't pay to go private is because I've often received the same advice from professionals within the private sector as I have from people within the NHS. The only difference is I determined how much care I received on a consistent basis and how soon it was available. It's an unnecessary expenditure and not a particularly worthwhile investment - at least not in my case, which is entirely subjective. Others may benefit. I have not.

True, you can have more tailored care to suit your needs, and the ability to determine which care you think best suits your needs. DBT, for instance, is not offered on the NHS - my particular trust does make referals to an organisation that does offer it but they require a basis of proof that your condition is consistent with the type of care they offer, which requires a stamp of approval from a psychiatrist. Private Psychiatrists often charge more than I can afford - I should say at this point that it is wrong for you to assume that because one is intelligent, one also has a well-paid job, and inaccurate to make the association between intelligence and wealth - so I rely on the NHS for a referal to see a psychiatrist. This then creates the pattern I've spoken about before and exposes the flaws within the service - the dreaded waiting list.

Then when the wait becomes smaller, and an appointment becomes available, I find myself in the company of a locum doctor (who I won't see again) who has 15 minutes to discuss a medication review with me as per standard practice, even though I outright refuse to take medication, and will not take medication so long as the medication being discussed with me is not compatible with the condition the psychiatrist hasn't had the time to diagnose.

Then the word "unreceptive" is mixed into my notes and I'm back to square one, and what's reassuring to me is in knowing that that is not my problem.

"Congradulations you just met an intelligent person who doesnt have a job at all"

Dismissing Carmel's observation as hilariously misinformed would be too easy. Unlike you, I am employed. Self employed in fact. But irrespective of how much I earn, or you earn, you don't necessarily get what you pay for, which is the bigger picture in refuting what he/she says.

Sorry but when a person says they are intelligent what proof have they of this ? I get an average of 50 people a week apply for a job working for one of my businesses. The advertisement for the job available says we need someone intelligent who is smart with a lot of common sense. Usually 49 of the 50 have no sense at all. They are simply hoping that we will not notice this or assuming they are intelligent when they are wrong.

I took the MENSA examinations years ago to prove I am intelligent. Anyone can just claim it. Not impressed. Proof of intelligence is needed and where is it? If you are really smart what are you accomplishing with this intelligence?

One lady I know spent two years learning how to do websites and then another six months learning how to do SEO on websites and she now earns money doing that. So please do not tell me that you are intelligent but cannot go out to work and that is why you are unemployed. I hear these excuses all the time, and that is what they are, just excuses.

And I really do not know anyone who is intelligent who would be unemployed, the two contradict each other. One guy I know who is disabled in a wheelchair cannot go out to work so he works online. Because he is intelligent he changes his skills and talents to suit his situation. His brain is what he sells, he does not need to be physically 100% too.

I run three very successful businesses but if I were unemployed and had not passed the MENSA examinations I would not have the cheek to claim I am intelligent, because it is hot air and wishful thinking.

"So please do not tell me that you are intelligent but cannot go out to work and that is why you are unemployed. I hear these excuses all the time, and that is what they are, just excuses."

I've just explained I'm not unemployed...

I've also just reported that comment because you're essentially saying that all unemployed people are thick, which is inaccurate.

"Proof of intelligence is needed and where is it? If you are really smart what are you accomplishing with this intelligence?"

I'm accomplishing whatever it is I am accomplishing with my life that doesn't need to be justified to somebody I don't know online who I have nothing to prove to. What you need to know is that my self-employment gives me a sense of fulfillment, and that is the reward of my intelligence

"I run three very successful businesses but if I were unemployed and had not passed the MENSA examinations I would not have the cheek to claim I am intelligent, because it is hot air and wishful thinking."

You would also be too busy to be spending time justifying yourself to people who don't really care online. I come here on days off - I'm assuming you do the same.

Out of curiosity, have you ever read the book 'The Psychopath Test' by Jon Ronson? Alternatively, have you ever watched the film 'Malice' starring Alec Baldwin?

So now your saying your intelligent because mensa says so you do realize intelligence is measured in more ways then one and what proof do we have that your telling the truth hell i could claim to be god what proof do you have that im not god or i could claim to be mexican or a jew or a mexican jew what proof do you have that im not.

Just because you may think you know something does not make it true just like it dont for me.

So can you give me a job please carmel?  I have a degree and have always been told I am intelligent so lets assume I am.

Oh hang on - I am 60,  have some lung damage and suffer from depression and a bad back.  I was also dismissed from my last job due to illness.  

If you can give me a job please move one of your businesses down to Devon as there is a great lack of jobs here and especially ones I can now do.  

Very often when a "depressed" person tries to help another they are totally incapable of it or they would have helped themself more, and they are externalising their own pains and unhappinesses onto others. It is far easier to understand yourself than another, if you cannot do that then you have very little chance of understanding anyone else - not even your own partner or family or close friends.Imagine if a person said they knew how they could help you to become a billionaire yet they were living in a cardboard box with no money for food. That would be nonsense. IT IS THE SAME THING.

I disagree, perhaps they just have advice for that particular situation, but not their own. I can help a lot of people on here with the vast amount if information I have read on illnesses such as depression and ocd

"Imagine if a person said they knew how they could help you to become a billionaire yet they were living in a cardboard box with no money for food. That would be nonsense. IT IS THE SAME THING."

On the other hand, one could be living in a cardboard box and tell others, also living in a cardboard box, to be aware of where they are and focus on the realities of their situation so they don't unrealistically aspire to becoming billionaires.

Was that response intended for me? I too have experienced the pass the pill nature of the NHS and yes unfortunately as my auntie says after experiencing postnatal depression, it has to come from you. Im a firm believer in Buddhist practices such as meditation and mindfulness as a way of coping with being in said metaphorical box and I might just provide the insulation for somebody else's box. This may help them for long enough to keep their job, seek medical (ie drugs) and professional psychiatric help. Even just simple human interaction, say via an internet chat forum , can help someone who has nobody to talk to. After all, not everybody has a cushy family life

"Was that response intended for me?"

No, and you and I share the same concept of finding peace through meditation. I have posted elsewhere in one of my 'one size fits all' type arguments about the benefits of escaping the pain of life through meditation over medication, a concep and practice I'm very much adverse to.

Some situations undeniably require medication eg when depression is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain as opposed to life circumstances. I know from personal experience that meditation helps with depression, an idea which has plenty of scientific backing (Brain scans show that the brains of frequent meditators are actually physiologically different to those of non meditators) I think often what we externalise to the outside world is the opposite of our self image. One point I did want to raise is the effectiveness of positive attitude in the treatment of depression and mental illness in general. We're surrounded by negatives and high expectations on a day to day basis and I believe this causes many people to be negative by habit. In general I think the media is the problem, bombarding us with images of the so called ideals which only brainwash the general public into thinking thats what we want. It isn't, it's culturally and chronologically relative eg It used to be that plump, pale women were more attractive because the very fact that they could afford to overeat made them attractive. Its no wonder that people end up with self esteem issues in light of all this. What I think is that the media need to be held accountable. Catwalk models for instance should not be size zero, they're suffering from anorexia, but their profession makes it 'ok'

Again, my questions over the alledged "chemical imbalances in the brain" have been dealt with in a seperate topic. I'm off the opinion that they are questionable, but most of all without proof.

Well it is a bit simplistic, but what we do know is that increased levels of serotonin are linked to better wellbeing with SSRIs like Escitalopram blocking the rate at which the brain reabsorbs serotonin. Im of the opinion that first and foremost regular cardiovascular exercise is preferable for managing stress and anxiety and believe this should be incorporated into voluntary exercise programs but should be encouraged amongst patients suffering with depression, particularly where the problem is biochemical and related to life circumstances