An Excellent Diet For Gout

It's not my diet, and that was my point. Diet is only 20% of our urate production (unless you are a kilo a day carnivore!)

Part if a diet is not just food but supplements and spices proven to

have an impact on Gout. See my earlier submission for items thet

help. Of course there is no single magic bullet. Best to have many

arrows in your quiver than just one.

 

Clearly as you know meat and seafood are high risk items for causing Gout

attacks. It's not rocket science / do the math. If you insist on eating meat and seafood you are simply increasing your odds of an attack, especially compared to my approach. I well remember my 1st and only attack at a 

time when I was eating lots of meat and seafood. There is such a link and

you know it from your readings, otherwise you are simply living in denial !

 

Look - if a total vegan diet stops your gout then good like to you. Very few could manage it though. Indeed, nobody can manage to live only on plants.

My point is though that most of the breakdown of proteins that create the unrated which ultimately cause the gout - isn't from external sources but from breakdown of our own bodily protein. Now if the diet does it for you, and on your annual test it shows your urate levels to be low - great news, and long may it continue.

You do not accept that a person can be a vegan and be very healthy. That

shows your lack of knowledge.

   As for meat and seafood they are high in PURINES, which when broken 

down form URIC ACID. URIC ACID CRYSTALS are more likely to form

in the joints with higher Purine and Uric Acid levels. Very basic Gout

information. When Uric Acid levels in the blood and Uric Acid Crystal levels in joints become too high that

can lead to a Gout attack. High Uric Acid levels in the bloodstream are no

joke as they in turn can contribute to a greater risk of having HEART DISEASE, STROKE, or HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE. Many experts in the 

field say much can be done such as no meat or seafood in the diet. Also

a number of items I listed in the beginning of this chat have a proven impact

based on a number of studies. Many Doctors and experts on the subject

say much can be done to improve the odds and result in far fewer Gout 

attacks. Isn't that preferable? Obviously you have had Gout attacks and

know how painful they can be. I know what it's like based on my first and only attack.

    Vegetarian eating can include many of the known low purine foods.

What could be wrong with that.

    It seems you are a dyed in the wool meat eater in spite of the facts.

    It is doubly insincere to peddle your propaganda against being a 

vegetarian on this forum. Also nobody has to go all the way and be a

Vegan. A person can consume low fat / no fat dairy and eat eggs when they

have Gout. There are different types of Vegetarian and you seem to pick

on a Vegan diet as you see that as more extreme, something you do not

want for yourself or anyone else. Your argument is based on many myths 

and vague half truths about Vegetarianism. I would suggest you do some

reading on the subject, however you seem too reactionary regarding 

Vegetarian eating in general to ever consider it as a way to treat your

disease let alone anyone else's. 

    As for the slightly more open minded, remember Gout attacks can be like a ticking time bomb. What you ingest is important. You are what you eat.

Do you want to have a much greater chance of a Gout attack? If so then 

eat meat and seafood. If you would father ere on the side of caution then

seriously avoid them.  

I eat meat and seafood on a weekly basis, and I haven't had an attack for about 8 years.  Some fish like herring and salmon will bring on the attack full blown but if i stay away from them and eat other types of fish I do quite well. For me it's eating too much wheat that increases my chances of getting a gout attack. So while the science maybe right, every body is different in how the body breaks down the proteins.

All you are telling me I know, and probably knew most of it since university half s lifetime ago. But, most of our urates don't come from diet but from breakdown of our own tissues.

As for life expectancy - those who do best are not vegans but those with a high plant based diet but with good quantities of fish.

A •pure• vegan diet will kill you. Human beings cannot live without small amounts of meat - vegans cheat of course by taking supplements and pretending they aren't from non vegetable sources.

Meat or seafood once per week is not very much compared to most. Generally someone

who eats meat does so 3 or more times per week. Clearly you see some

common sense logic in at least limiting your meat and seafood intake if not stopping it all

together.

The science clearly shows that sugars are a problem - not just fish and meat. Wheat and grains have high levels of purines (hence the reason beer is a problem).

I take allopurinol so I can eat whatever I like. I also take high amounts of water to flush it all through.

Eat what you want is avoiding the issue. Allopurinol does not work for 

everyone or forever. There have been Gout sufferers in this forum who have attested to the fact that allopurinol can stop working effectively.

  Of course there are other factors contributing to Gout such as sugar intake.

I have also eliminated ALL sugar except for 15g per day from fresh 

fruit. It is obvious that sugars are poisons. Even fructose needs to be 

limited for good health even when someone does not have Gout. It goes

double when you have Gout.

Better to keep Uric Acid levels low in the first place rather than cotinually

depend on a drug to flush them out over and over. Allopurinol does not 

work for everyone with  many unable to tolerate the side effects such as 

itch and rash. At WebMD they say you should report these side effects immediately as they are serious indicators that they cannot ttolerate the

drug. Generally if this happens your Doctor should then consider other

possible medications and/or treatments......which do not include "Eat a

big hunk of meat."

Eating meat or seafood more than once a week would be too much for me. Once a week if that is all I can do because there are times I altogether skip meat & fish for weeks on end.  I don't have a problem eating a vegan diet, except it requires a lot of cooking which I don't do.

I'm not an alcoholic drinker so that's not an issue. But the wheat and grains surely don't sit well with me.

Vegan eating does not have to involve a lot of cooking. Try making a 

whole foods smoothie including such things as walnuts,cashews,ground flax

seed,hemp seed,cabbage,cucumber,onion,red bell pepper,strawberries,

pineapple turmeric,ginger,Rosemary. Be sure to choose lower purine options. Consult a Purine

Table on-line. Also magnesium, cherry extract capsules,vitamin C, 

supplements are a good idea.

  Turmeric,ginger,and Rosemary are spices that help to lower Uric Acid levels. Uric Acid of course contributes to Uric Acid Crystal formation in

the joints and Gout attacks.

Good to know, my favorite spice rosemary is one I use a lot of in my foods. I add turmeric to many of my foods as well. I didn't know there was a purine table, thanks for all this info.

 

Sounds very healthy.

However....It reminds me of someone I know who is a "cold food vegan"; which is fair enough. But she has a child and a Jack Russell Terrier, both of whom are forced to be cold food vegans. Both the 3 year old child and the terrier are a bit loopy.... and you cannot imagine how crazy they become when they smell prohibited steak and chips.

The Moderator should have to do some basic fact checking of submissions.

Your "vegan diet will kill you" is way over the top. In other words totally

false. I and hundreds of millions of others are living proof. As I said previously vegans

need to lightly supplement with Vitamin D and a Multi-Vitamin with Minerals

which insures proper minimum Vitamin B12 to avoid pernicious anemia.

No big deal, as the Vitamin D supplement is good advice for many people as

it has been suggested that as much as half the general population is

deficient in Vitamin D anyway. You are a real Anti-vegetarian so your opinions should be taken with a large grain of salt to say the least.

   Also in an earlier submission I pointed out that nobody has to go vegan.

Many vegetarians eat eggs and dairy too. No big deal. However, for some

reason you have a big hate-on for vegans, with no PROOF that a vegan 

following my minor suggestions would be unhealthy. That's why I made 

those suggestions to point out a way to be a vegan and be healthy.

  I suspect you know vegans can be healthy, you simply want to be an apologist for you and others to continue to play Russian roulette with

Gout attacks.  

   You claim 62% will get their second Gout attack within one year and 80%

willnhave a second attack within 2 years of the first. As I said previously

I have passed the 1 year mark without a second attack. I have already

outdone the odds. I will give you the two year update when the time comes.

  It is very irresponsible for you to knowingly lie or distort the truth on this

forum.

  Check with the Professional opinions available on this very site. They say

what we eat and do not eat can have a real and significant impact on purine levels and hence Uric acid levels. So look it up on this site, and quit using

distortion.   duh meat and seafood are bad for Gout. duh maybe vegetarian

eating might help, duh.

 

Sure, but you should consider that

probably many of the 38% who

did not get a second attack in the first

year were doing something right, such

as seriously reducing their intake of

meat and seafood. It's not rocket

science, however if you refuse to alter your eating habits at all and ONLY depend on medication you are

more likely to have more frequent more intense Gout attacks than someone who takes medication AND

adjusts their diet. It is common sense

supported by many many Doctors.

Look that up !

A *pure* vegan diet will kill you. I have no doubt you take some supplements that have an animal origin.

There is no doubt that a very low meat diet with fish is very healthy. Pure vegan ism isn't, but it you like it - go for it. Most of us eat more meat than optimum health. If you chose tooth avoid all animal products for ideological reasons, good luck to you.

What you eat will only effect your levels of uric acid by about 10%.

I agree with you on sugar.

You are eating much more of it than me I may add.

I eat no added sugar at all and don't eat anything that I know has added sugar.

? I said I consume no sugar of any kind except only 15 grams of naturally

occuring fructose in maybe two servings of fruit per day.

10% difference in Uric acid levels is very significant as that can make the difference between having or not having a Gout attack especially over time. Also, how ridiculous to say

a vegan diet will kill you. As though having one serving of meat or fish per

week is the difference between life and death. Probably about 2 Billion 

people in the world are vegetarians such as in India and China. Many many

of them live into their 80's and 90's in good health. You certainly are showing

your bias in favour of making excuses for eating meat and against being a 

vegetarian. 

  Fact: Eating meat and seafood increases your level of purines which in

turn raises your Uric Acid levels, which has an impact on your chances of having a GOUT ATTACK. Check with Doctors on this site and elsewhere.

  He'll see if I care, eat meat and seafood every day and have very frequent

painful Gout attacks, or simply eat them 2 times per week and have a much greater chance of an attack than me. It's your call. Play Russian Roulette

with your food and Gout if you want to, however I will stick with my regular

NON-VEGAN diet including dairy and eggs and have a much lower chance 

of a GOUT ATTACK than you. 

I am afraid I am not going to engage with you any more. Just one last comment: as one who has lived for over a year on both India and China... huge number of Indians are vegetarians, but most eat eggs and milk. In Chinese there isn't even a word for vegan.

Yes most in India and China eat a similar way to me. As I said, I am not a vegan. I eat eggs and dairy, however I know vegans who are very healthy

as they are not too proud to supplement lightly especially for Vitamin D 

(which  many non-vegetarians are deficient in) and B12. 

 Your arguments in defence of eating meat and seafood are laughable especially coming from a Gout sufferer. You base your opinion on far more myth than fact. Gout attacks? Well I guess you reep what you sow. lol

P.S. In the post you replied to I said :  " Probably about 2 billion people in

the world are vegetarians such as in India and China. "  I never claimed

they were vegans. That's just another hunk of distortion you threw to try

to confuse the issue once again.  Your position is weak, very weak.

Even vegetarians drop dead of high cholesterol and have cancer rates the same as meat eaters, because they're missing epa and omega 3's from their diets. In fact a 2002 medical report had vegetarians die 4 years earlier from their meat eating counterparts. However, saturated fat (meat) is still bad for gout sufferers along with the purines.

 As far as fish go SARDINES are very very high in purines and likely to

produce a Gout attack according to one site. If you search "Purine Table"

you will be taken to something which is very useful for Gout sufferers.

 

I eat sardines maybe once a year and just suffer mild tinges of pain. I'll  drink cherry juice for a day or drink my bromelain then I'm fine. What causes huge gout attacks in me is earing pickled Herring which I love but I can't handle the suffering pain or eating anything with whole wheat.

Wrong, vegetarians live an average of 11 years longer than regular meat 

eaters. Don't know where you got your information from. Search:

Vegetarian Longevity.

  Omega 3?  There are abundant Omega 3's in seeds and nuts for starters.

Check it out !

The study I saw was based on American vegetarians and meat eaters. In

other words an even playing field regarding adequate caloric intakes and 

access to reasonable health care. Possibly your "study" was based on 

the world rather than simply America.

  it would be totally unfair to compare an Ethiopian who has barely half

a cup of rice per day to an American who has all the calories and nutrition he can handle plus say three servings of meat per week. The Ethiopian dies

from a lack of food not from not eating meat. 

 Also HEART DISEASE and CANCER rates are actually way higher among regular meat eaters than vegetarians in America. Look it up.

  SATURATED MEAT FATS CONTRIBUTE TO HEART DISEASE and MEAT

Is a KNOWN CARCINOGEN (CANCER CAUSING).

The only studies I follow are those from Amerian Medical reviews done in America with control groups, following thousands of people and from deaths reported of those who died of heart attacks whether vegetarian or meat eaters. The rates were about the same. I'm sorry but unless you follow medical reviews from the PNA's or the New England Journal of Medicine or BMJ, all those other reports don't mean a thing.

Also, my friend is a vegetarian, his father recently suffered a heart attack/stroke, has diabetes, and other health factors and yet they never eat meat nor drink soda due to religion standards. And yet they live in India where the diet is more strict. I was in shocked to have someone so close suffer from what would be considered a healthy diet and of all things high cholesterol.

Meat is a saturated fat that is essentially bad for us, but because of the protein it gives us well many of us can't live without it but medically speaking there is no difference between meat eaters and vegetarians dying. They die at the same rate. So it really makes no difference being vegan, vegetarian or a meat eater, the dying rate is the same.

I think if you want to live a long time in good health it's probably best to eat a lot less meat than most of us, plenty of fish and a lot more green veg than most of us. Avoid sugars and too many complex carbs is probably a good idea, along with exercise and maintain a good weight. Personally I like animal flesh more than I should.

Agreed. However Veganism has many aspects which are quasi-religious and are impervious to reason.

Now I wonder why wildlife's posts were deleted? If he was trying to send a link that won't work they block them.

Sochima

I saw you get a itng of gout if you eat sardines. This should not be happening. That would only happen if your blood is already saturated with urate. If your blood is saturated with urate, then this could be doing harm. It would be safest to lower your urates to the point where excesses in your tissues are flushed out. Have you had your urate level tested (sorry if you have already answered that)

Rusty

Rusty, no I haven't had my urate levels checked, How do you flush out your excess urates? When I get tinges it's usually when I've had too much wheat which I try to avoid. Sardines don't give me issues like pickled herring which I end up calling the doctor on emergency for medication. I was thinking of picked herring when I said Sardines up above, sorry. wrong fish type.

You talk about emergnacy medication - what do you mean? Colchecine?

The only way to treat gout is by checking blood urate level. This is the most basic check (there are other more sophisicated methods, but urates are a good indication). The urates must be checked when you have no symptoms of gout (I suspect that doctors don't all know this).

As someone who has symptoms of gout you need to have your blood urates at quite a bit lower than the max recommended. The crystals could well be collecting in your organs (hence the high heart attack rate among gout sufferers who have not got urates under control). 

The easist way to control the urate is to use a very old and cheap drug called Allopurinol. Do not use it if you are of Chinese, Thai or Korean decent. Start on a low dose (100 mg) because rarely people get a skin rash which can be very dangerous. The reacton is not dose dependant: if you are okay in a couple of weeks increase the dose (at this point I should say with the agreement of the doc, as you may have co-morbidities about which I am not aware). The max recormmende dose for cleaning you out is 900 mg (800 acc to the USA). But most people only need 337 mg (there is a 300 mg tablet). Be aware, that if you do have excess urate built up in your system, as the allopurinol begins to work (and you should get your blood tested to bring the urate level down as low as possible), the stored urates will flush and cause gout symptoms - so be prepared with pain killers colchecine or whatever you use. After 6 months of having no gout symptoms, you are ready for the maintenance phase - probably a 100mg tablet or maybe if you are lucky, nothing and a bit of care with your diet - and regular checks on the urate levels. Aborad they recommend checks on urates every 3 months, but in the UK some doctors say 1 year and some 2-3 times a year (the NHS is under strain).

By the way, if you pay for NHS presecriptons then get a private presecption for allupurinol for 6 months and buy 6 months worth for £7 in Boots; then use the same presecption to buy a second lot 5 months later. 

Hope that is clear. Any quesitons feel free. I got this informatino from my specialist abroad and changing UK doc  times before I found one who understtood the issues.

Hi Rusty, my emergency med is indomethacin. My doctors have not put me on colchecine nor allupurinol. I get checked every time I go to the doctors with blood work, there is nothing to suggest not by my doctor at least that my urate levels are high. I will ask next time though.

The indomethacin doing the same as the colchicine - calming down the immune system.

Somebody who has a healthy level of blood urate - doesn't get gout.

Many doctors I suspect don't bother to reduce the level of urates - they are happy to reduce the symptoms. In reality gout should be looked after by a rheumatologist, but in the UK that often doesn't happen. The risk of high levels of blood urate is not trivial:

"Compared to individuals without gout, we found that individuals with gout died earlier and experienced a 42% higher risk of death. Similarly, individuals with gout experienced a higher risk of dying from cardiovascular disease with a 58% higher risk of cardiovascular death.

Across most, age, sex and race subgroups, we demonstrated that individuals with the highest uric acid levels (>375 µmol/L), had a 77 % higher risk of death from all causes and a 209% higher risk of cardiovascular death than those who had the lowest levels of uric acid (0 to < 256 µmol/L).

Even more striking we found that, the risk of rising uric acid levels were detrimental to those who might be considered to have healthy lifestyles, (people who never smoked, 11% higher death risk per 60 µmol/L increase); people who never drank, (15% higher risk per 60 µmol/L increase) and, people who were physically active (9% higher risk per 60 µmol/L increase).

Our research suggested that gout, an index of cumulative urate burden, and hyperuricaemia were associated with increased death risk regardless of other well-known cardiovascular riskfactors. In other words, the independence of this relationship would suggest that perhaps gout and hyperuricaemia may be considered in the causal pathway and therefore contribute directly to elevated mortality.

important•••>There is good evidence to suggest that hyperuricaemia itself may elevate cardiovascular risk either directly or indirectly with through progressive kidney damage, initiation and worsening of hypertension, or indeed systemic inflammation and the development of the metabolic syndrome."

This is research from 2013, and I believe that non specialist GPs are unaware of this. GPs either don't know or don't care that high blood urate will kill the patient 10, 20 years down the road; not a problem if you're 98, but that isn't my case.

Thanks, it's time I start asking questions. Will ask on next blood work what the findings are and see what appears to be elevated. I know that gout and arthritis are in the same family so as long as I stay away from arthritis causing foods I also stave away gout. It's good I continue exercising, and I take my bromelain which appears to help. For the number of attacks I've had I think I'm doing fairly well, with no recurrence just a mild tinge in & there. Eating healthy I believe is a huge part of keep uric acid levels low from my experience of when I was in my 20's of eating junk processed food everyday. I certainly don't do that anymore.