Can someone help me out here?

I agree and that's why id never accuse him of anything. But there are certain things he knew of and that were said that made him fully aware if how vulnerable I am. Yes I feel hurt as would anyone, but my point is he has taken in every single detail and used this to his own advantage.

Sadly some people will, he's not a nice kind or caring person to be around then so he's best avoided.  My friend I mentioned has severe D the guy she's seeing is a sociopath.  Sometimes when we have issues ourselves we can attract others in similar positions.  My husband is BP he left 17 months ago now drinking to numb the anxiety and with a woman who is an alcoholic.  Here is another example I am left with selling the family home we have lost everything, people know we are desparate to sell so have put silly offers in which i have now had to accept.  there is always someone waiting to take advantage

I am sorry to hear you're having such a terrible time right now, hope things pick up for you.

Thanks Jodie

"Typical highly sexed young man"?!

I think you could have been a lot more sensitive in your response there like.

This is a common trend of thought at the minute (even a judge commented on it), that somehow young men should be allowed some degree of lenience for poor sexual conduct simply because they are young men ("on the rut" was the phrase the judge used). Whereas young women should go out of their way to make sure they are not in a state of vulnerability where a man could take advantage of the situation.

I think it's a terrible way of looking at things; if you're old enough to be having sex, you should be old enough to appreciate when somebody is not an appropriate sexual partner (no matter their willingness) whether it be due to their mental health, their level of intoxication or way they are dressed.

This girl is obviously feeling very upset about what happened to her, and rightly so, and maybe a bit more sympathy and a little less "take responsibility for yourself" wouldn't go amiss.

Just a thought.

️️Thankyou for your response, I don't think others understand much the problems my mental health illnesses cause; understandably as I haven't expalined them all. However, what I am trying to explain is that although I never denied consent, the boy was in fact very aware of everything and knew he could get away with certain things. I have recently just found out he also was accused of rape on another girl and maybe this is why I am beginning to wonder myself if he used all of these vulnerabilities to his own advantage. So far you seem to be the only seeing why I am upset, maybe it's just me. But I guess when it's uourself going throught it, you know everything that happened and therefore know what it pushes towards more x

I can assure you, he knew a lot more than me just having "depression". I'd also like to state that when as vulnerable as I was at that time, I am in no fit state to be making decisions and that too, he was fully aware afain.

Jodie,

I really feel for you.

I've been in a similar situation, and it is extremely difficult.

I understand all of your feelings about it not being rape as such but this person did take advantage of you.

You say they knew a lot about you and how you were feeling, how vulnerable you were, and if they knew this they should have had the decency to not partake in sex with you.

They should have waited until they were sure you were in a fit state to cope with the emotional fall out sex often brings.

I spoke to my psychologist about my experience of this happening to me, and the conflicting feelings in that you know you consented to sex, but deep down you and he both knew you weren't in a fit state to do so.

This person has abused a position of trust and now needs to be avoided at all costs. From what you say about his past he sounds very predatory and he should be deeply ashamed of himself.

You shouldn't be ashamed though, you aren't well, he knew that, he should not have been intimate with you when he knew you were in such a vulnerable place. Please do not feel like your feelings of being used and confused, angry even, are unjustified. You have every right to feel that way.

Is there anybody you can talk to about this?

Are you involved with any mental health services or have a friend or relative you can talk to about this incident and your general mental state?

I think you need some support so that untrustworthy people like the person you slept with don't manage to take advantage of you again.

Please take good care of yourself.

Lots of kind thoughts and best wishes xxx

This has been going on from the dawn of time. Girls getting 'used' by men and then cast aside when they have had their way. Only now has it become common for women scorned to accuse them of rape. Sometimes a young man's life is ruined for years due to untrue accusations. Of course I understand how devastating it is to give yourself to a boy only to have him drop you afterwards, but it is NOT a reason to cry rape, even if you have mental health problems. It seems that the reason the OP is so uoset is that she thought she was 'close' to this boy but found out that he was in fact only after one thing. Would she be feeling the same way if she had had sex with him and now they were going steady? Of course not. So it is not the sex act itself but the rejection afterwards that is causing her all the pain. Now she regrets giving herself to him and feels wretched and used.  She would not feel like that if he hadn't rejected her after they had had sex. It is not rape.

I really do feel for her. It is always the 'vunerable' girls that end up being used. It's not nice. The boy is not a nice person, but I really do hate the way it seems that men can be accused of rape in almost any situation nowadays.

I have never accused him of rape and made that very clear. I would never accuse someone of something they haven't done. Yoibsay this but are not able to judge exactly when you do not know exactly everything that had gone on. I appreciate your opinion but it's not as straightforward as it sounds on the post.

Sorry Jodie, I was replying to Audrey as she seemed to be implying that this boy was guilty of rape. I know you are not accusing him of that. He does sound like a thoroughly horrible young man. I am just being a realist and pointing out that most people DON'T understand what mental illness is like ESPECIALLY hormone charged boys with only one thing on their minds. I think it is unrealistic to expect them all to be understanding when even normal more mature people can be ignorant of mental health issues. I really am not being unsympathetic towards you and know exactly how you must feel. I am just trying to point out the realities of life and hope that you will learn from this horrid episode.

It's been going on since the dawn of time? Agh well that's ok then!

If that's the case why aren't we still doing all of the other things that have been going on since the "dawn of time" that are absolutely reprehensible in a modern, civilised society? Ridiculous argument to make.

Honestly what on earth are you talking about?!

You are the person who keeps bringing up the rape suggestion. The original post has said repeatedly she is not accusing him of rape, and I did not accuse him of that either.

I said he abused a position of power. I said he took advantage of a vulnerable individual. I'd feel the same way if it was a man who had been used by a woman.

It's the fact that this girl was vulnerable, made that clear, and this was not taken into consideration by her sexual partner. Please don't use hormones as some sort of excuse, that is grossly insulting.

Do you know the amount of hormones young women have raging through their bodies? Your argument is just so out of line.

For the record, I've also had a close male friend who was wrongly accused of rape, and it was awful. But that is not what is happening here.

This girl is saying she feels he played on all the information he had about her vulnerabilities and mental health, and used them to his advantage. I don't really think that is open for debate.

I'm agreeing that he did a bad thing, and that he abused a position of trust.

I am not saying he raped her. She is not saying he raped her.

I'm saying I think it's disgusting that she should get anything but sympathy for the situation she's found herself in. Also I think the person she slept with should not be met with anything other than condemnation.

As a side note can we not say 'vulnerable'; that implies the vulnerability is in question. This girl was vulnerable. No quotation marks needed.

I quoted because it WAS a quote, not to insinuate that she was not vunerable. I have also said more than once that this boy is horrible. How do you read into this I am not sympathetic? The reason I thought you were implying that he was guilty of rape was because you quoted a judge's comment on this type of behaviour. Why else would a judge be commenting if not in a rape trial? So I was under the impression you were insinuating the OP's position was comparible.

I actually think that it is irresponsible to tell the OP that she is in no way responsible for herself. This only reinforces a sense of helplessness which is not helpful in preventing this happening again. 

 

 

I'm not saying she shouldn't be responsible for herself, I'm saying that sometimes people can't be responsible for themselves. It's not a matter of choice, it's the fact that your head is so unwell you can be unable to make decisions that are truly what is best for you.

Quite clearly you have never been in a situation, or certainly don't seem to appreciate, that when you are in such a state of poor mental health, you are very vulnerable, and sometimes unable to be responsible for your decisions.

That is why civilised societies take steps to protect people who are unable to protect themselves due to mental illness, age, disability and the like.

I just think your phrasing is distinctly lacking in compassion, which she clearly needs right now.

You do not know me or what I have been through, so perhaps you should be a little less judgemental. I don't know why you feel qualified to critisise other people's advice. This is an open forum and we all have our own ways of approaching things. I give a lot of my time trying to help people on here, especially when I see they haven't had any replies, as well as suffering from depression myself for over twenty years.

I don't think I'm being judgemental, I'm sorry if you feel that way.

You're right, I don't know what you've been through, but you don't know what I've been through either.

My purpose wasn't to judge you or your experiences, but to comment on the way you responded to what I saw as a vulnerable girl seeking some compassion and support.

I didn't think it was necessary for you to refer to her need to take responsibility for herself when she may not be feeling able to at the moment, and quite clearly needs an advocate of some kind.

I also did not think it was necessary for you to repeatedly reference innocent young men being wrongly accused of rape (as neither the OP or I were accusing anybody of rape).

Furthermore your points on young men being hormone filled and acts such as the one the OP going on since the "dawn of time", seemed to in some way condone bad sexual conduct (on the part of men, anyway) despite your protestations that that wasn't your intention.

I feel qualified to challenge advice that might, unintentionally or otherwise, cause more pain and suffering for somebody reaching out for help and understanding during an already painful time.

I appreciate that this is an open forum, but I think it is a reasonable expectation that those who offer advice truly consider what kind of support the OP needs, rather than the advice that they want to give.

I'm very sorry that you've been suffering from depression for so long. So have I and I know how terrible it is. I think it is admirable that you wish to support people.

That said, I stand by my point that it is important to consider the needs of those you are offering support to, to ensure more pain, anxiety and self doubt is not caused.

Audrey, I give the support I think a poster NEEDS not what they want. It is very easy to always saywhat a person wants to hear. Much more difficult to identify the real problem and try to address that. What you are doing is facilitating a sense of helplessness which will be counter productive for the OP.

We will have to agree to differ on this one, I'm afraid. I think your responses are niave, you think mine are harsh, so be it.

 

No no no.

It's very easy to say what YOU WANT and not what THEY NEED. That's the same excuse people use when they are "blunt" or "direct"; it is far more difficult to understand the complexities of another's emotions, and assess their need, than to say what you want to say regardless, because you have deemed it right for them.

I'm by no means naive. In fact I find that notion very patronising, insulting and dismissive. Kinda like how I viewed your response to the OP.

Only I can handle it because I am ONLY 25; but I spend my days bathing and supporting the man I love as he comes to terms with the prospect of not walking again.

Naive I am not. Young I am. Still able to distinguish between when somebody needs support to talk things out and when they need some tough love.

And still young enough to remember a time when I went through what the OP did and felt thoroughly dreadful. Made worse by comments about men/boys and their seemingly impenetrable sex drives or "hormones", and my need to exercise caution around them despite my ill, messed up head.

Maybe I can identify a bit with the OP, maybe I can't, I wouldn't want to speak for her.

But I can certainly look back on my life and pinpoint specific occasions when the exact same thing happened to me as the OP described, and I know now, with maturity (you grow up pretty quickly nursing two relatives until they die before you, and a peer as their physical ability does) that my feelings of indignation at such events were thoroughly justified.

I am not facilitating helplessness. Sometimes people feel helplessness, I'm recognising that as a fact of mental illness; and hopefully when more people can or will, less vulnerable people will slip through the net and deem themselves unworthy of support or sympathy, and more able to feel empowered into articulating their need.

I think it is you who is perhaps naive.

With hindsight, Audrey, would you have behaved any differently?

I agree with you that this isn't rape and she was taken advantage of when in a vulnerable state.   I think this is quite common especially in young men and while this doesn't excuse it it happens a lot.  From men coercing women into sex by telling them they must be frigid or a lezzie to a man believing sex is the answer to all problems.   The trouble is a lot of men really believe that and some of them will do anything for sex including exploiting women,  but they don't view it in this way.   

There has been quite a lot of publicity about women falsely accusing men of rape and that is awful I agree with you.  But there is a lot less publicity about men raping women and the woman not being believed or thinking she wouldn't be there she doesn't even report it.   I have seen figures indicating that of every rape reported 9 out of 10 go unreported.   Unfortunately this doesn't receive the same publicity or raise public fury in the same way.   Says it all really.    

I have had two attempted rapes in the past which I didn't report. Perhaps I should have. I have also had two cases of indecent exposure, which again I didn't report. So I can well believe that some cases of rape are not reported. And that is wrong and very worrying.

I think what worried me about the OP's post was where she asks:

'I don't know what to do, I mean would this even be classed as something??'

Because this sounds as though she is thinking along the lines of some kind of criminal prosecution. The boy sounds like a thoroughly unpleasant exploiter of women, but regardless of what Audrey has said, this is unfortunately very common. Of course it doesn't excuse it, and if I found out either of my sons were behaving in such a way, I would be thoroughly ashamed and they would be in no doubt about that.

However, it does anger me that some people think that women are in no way responsible for their actions, like they are some poor helpless creature that is completely unable to fend for themselves. I find that insulting to women. Obviously it may be correct in the case of forced rape, but in the case of consentual sex followed by regret, then of course they should be at least half responsible for what happened.

I think telling someone they are not responsible for themselves is dangerous and irresponsible. It creates an image of themselves as a helpless victim in everything bad that happens to them in life, and this is not condusive to recovery. When people feel helpless they go down an endless spiral. They never get to examine their own actions and how they can influence the world. It is the opposite of empowerment.

This does not mean I do not feel for the OP. On the contrary, I really do.

Would I have done what differently exactly?

Well I will tell you why I was maybe a bit angry at your responses, particularly calling me naive. I know all too well that the situation the OP found herself in happens all too often.

When I was 13 and stood in my school uniform, a man pulled up in a car alongside me and exposed himself to me. He asked me to perform a sex act on him and to get in the car. I told him to get lost, very loudly, then as he drove away noted down his registration plate, description of vehicle, and description of him.

My mum picked me up as usual, she had been running a bit late, and I told her straight away what had happened. She drove me straight around to the police station where I reported him.

Anyway, they caught him in no time at all; turns out he'd been parking there for some time looking at me over the course of previous weeks, and he had a record of sex crimes. He pleased guilty and got punished.

So we can't argue with the person I'm describing being a criminal, right?

I got loads of support and sympathy at what a terrible thing had happened, how scared I must've been, how I must be traumatised. I wasn't any of those things.

Because at this point in my life I didn't feel vulnerable, I was ballsy, pragmatic and confident. But because of my age and what had happened, I was given a victim status.

Flash forward a few years and I'm significantly depressed, can't get any support.

I made dangerous choices to go out with men and boys and drink and sleep around. I remember one occasion when I felt completely out of my depth; I knew the guy I was with, but I didn't know where I actually was, none of my family knew either. He'd taken me there, I'd gone willingly, but he knew very well I was vulnerable. And we had "consensual" sex.

Another time, another boy, and again I had agreed to go out for a drive. I thought that was what was actually going to happen, I didn't know that drive=sex. But I didn't really know what to do because again, I had gone somewhere unknown willingly with a boy and I didn't know how to get home. I did know though if I agreed that drive=sex I would probably get home ok.

So thats just a couple of examples. Looking back now, I still feel this sense of guilt or culpability in putting myself in situations where people took advantage of my vulnerable mental state. I was consenting to sex, but the reality is I wasn't actually in a fit state to be consenting to anything. I had untreated depression, and I didn't know who I was or what I needed or wanted.

I felt like a victim of some sort then, kinda like the OP said I knew it wasn't rape but it felt like something. And obviously I didn't get any support at those times because now I wasn't seen as a victim, though I felt at the most vulnerable I'd ever felt.

I don't think I would have done anything differently with hindsight, because I couldn't. Making those poor sexual choices was something I didn't have a grip on, I was free falling in this massive new reality where I wasn't ballsy, confident or pragmatic; I was scared, unsure and alone.

Do I wish I could go back in time and force people to give the younger me the treatment I needed so I didn't end up in those situations? Of course.

So what I'm trying to say is like the OP, I wasn't raped, but I was not in a fit state to make responsible decisions about my physical or sexual health, because my mental health was so messed up.

I'm not advocating women taking no responsibility for themselves, I don't think women are some kind of helpless little birds needing to be rescued all the time.

I was once a ballsy chick who wouldn't have let myself go anywhere I didn't know, or hang around with anybody like those two boys I mentioned. And if I'd found out going for a drive = sex, I'd have probably slapped him across the face, got out of the car and flagged down an appropriate car, or walked to the nearest pub or something. I'd have found away to get myself out of that situation where I felt vulnerable.

That's my point entirely that mental illness skews your inner self, to a point when decisions you make aren't truly yours, they are this new version of yourself that you don't understand.

That's why I feel the OP deserves nothing but sympathy, and I fundamentally disagree that she should feel responsible for how bad she feels right now. When people are that vulnerable due to mental illness they can't be held accountable for the repercussions decisions they make might have, because they aren't truly in control of their own mind.

Thank you for explaining that. I understand why you were angry by my saying you were niave. Believe it or not I have been in a situation where I was suffering from depression and found myself agreeing to sex when really I was coerced into it and only went along with it because I wanted to keep his attention. When I look back it really was a form of grooming, but I was an adult and responsible for my own actions. So yes, I regret it, but I can't say that I really blame him. I think he was a player (could almost say preditor of sorts) but despite my depression, and not feeling loved etc. I take full responsibility for what happened. My comment about you being naive is in respect of you expecting men to be what they aren't. They, especially young men, are not that empathetic. They are not like women. You get some who are wonderful, but many men would not have a clue if a girl is vunerable. They would not understand it. That is just life. Yes girls have raving hormones too but it is nowhere near as strong as the male urge for sex. Yes some men take advantage of women who may be vunerable, but they see it as suducing them, not taking advantage of them. My advice to the OP was genuine advice based on experience. I really do think it is dangerous to tell vunerable women that whatever happens to them is beyond their control. I think that it is possible to learn from these mistakes.

I am trained in Psychology and cognitive behavioural therapy is about changing the way you think and behave. The OP is in a mindset where she feels helpless and not in control of what is happening to her. This is because of how she thinks. If this does not change, then she will repeat this mistake again and again. That is why I tried to make her see that she needs to take responsibility for herself, because at present she views herself as an object that things happen to. I am sorry if that came over as unsympathetic. I hope that you can see that it was anything other than.

 

I can assure you I in no way want to accuse this boy of anything at all. The reason I asked if this would be classed as anything is to actually clarify it for myself to allow myself to move forward from the experience.

I am genuinely pleased we've reached an understanding.

I don't think either of us want anything other than what's best for everyone.

I think your last post explains a lot to me though, I fundamentally disagree with CBT. I know a lot about it, and it's just an approach I don't agree with, though I know it works for a lot of people!

Clearly it wouldn't be as popular as it is if it didn't. I just am 10 years down the road with this mental health issue and have found CBT unhelpful.

My current psychologist acknowledges that is the case for some people. It's a treatment like any others and so obviously it will have different success rates for different people.

Maybe that's why our reactions and responses were so different?

I hope we can both conclude that we both wanted the best for the OP and to give the best advice we could; but that just for personal differences we approached it in different manners?

All the best. X

And to you, Audrey x

Hi Jodie, yes forums can be very limited sometimes because we are not able to hear the tone in people's voices and the expressions on their faces and so we just have the words on the page, which everyone will interpret in their own way. I had just been listening to a television debate on rape and so this immediately coloured my interpretation of your words. I apologise for misunderstanding your intentions. However, what Hypercat has said really echoes my own take on this, and I do think that you need to try to take back some sort of influence over your life. Try not to see yourself as helpless. I know this is hard when you are battling mental illness, but you are still a person who at the end of the day is in charge of your own body. I hope that you meet someone who does not abuse it. I am sure that one day you will. But in the meantime, remember that men think about sex A LOT. Much more than women do.

Thank you evergreen.  I do speak sense sometimes!  lol

Bev x