Do you think the right-to-die law should change?

I did know that jaguar before starting entering into this discussion which has received some good and some bad points. Gravitas in Sweden is the world leader here but we are discussing the right to have assisted suicide in this country, when a person feels he has had enough of whatever ails them be it cancer,MS or any other serious condition where all the person wants to do is shift their mortal coil with dignity and with as little pain as possible.

I have taken the one step that this country allows in letting one decide how they should be treat when their own end times comes it is called an advanced directive it can be made with or without a solicitor (with a solicitor is best if there may have relatives who wish to argue with you over this and not carry out your wishes) in short it is lodged with your GP and Hospital I have seen my records with the red stamp on them DNR on the front cover.

Finally why if other countries have legalized euthanasia are we arguing over it well most of us were born and bread in the UK and want to die at home whenever we either take the choice. It just seems that an advanced directive is one step forward on the right road to take.

The problem with Advanced Directives is that they would mostly apply to a DNR or a medical treatment situation. Plus you can think you know what you want now but when the time comes it might be different.

In fact you could be condemned to a life needing total bodily care or a life of pain - all without a situation where Advanced Directive comes into it..

Personally I think the dangers of people asking to be bumped off or being coerced by their family have been overstated. Is this an issue in Switzerland where Dignitas is?

It doesn't have to be a carte blanche for people to be bumped off on a whim. Every single case would have to be scrutinised by a medical/ethics panel and decisions would be made on a case by case basis. It's what I would want for me anyway.

If people think it's wrong for religious reasons fine. But please don't expect me to live (or die) by your code.

I have been watching this discussion and can only comment from a personal viewpoint. I for one do not want to live like a vegetable. I want to retain my dignity and not be a slobbering mess, or a burden to my family. If I know that I have a disease that cannot be cured or am in intolerable pain to the extent that I am kept alive by morphine then I want to go. Why are we so humane when it comes to animals, we do not allow them to suffer. When it comes to ourselves we should be able to make the decision that we have had enough and if and when we make that decision, there should be no outcome for anyone who agrees to assist us in carrying it through.

@chris2 dignatas in Switzerland is a very humane understanding institute OK a doctor prescribes the drug of choice after talking with the patient and their relatives, then an operative sets up the drip bearing in mind any difficulty the patient may have in operating the switch on so the drip can be set in motion or it has been known that a relative has done this for them, this is easily done as once the drip and other equipment is set up the people from dignatas take their leave until the patient has moved on to the next world. (this stems back to early days when if police seize equipment they could and often did trace it back to whence it came. As for being wrong on religious grounds then this is wrong to a believer the next world they go to is far better than the one they were in. As regards doing the testament right in the first place you are given a booklet with life type events that may occur to you and what you would or would not wish.

For Example you had a vast stroke that left you unable to do the basic bodily unctions and was unable to communicate to anyone and the situation was very much unlikely to improve, you had 3 choices of which you would tick one would not like to live at all, if it did not get worse OK and if you had a second CVA definitely no.

Also when making out an advanced directive apart from the use of a solicitor the help and advice of a advocate comes in very handy Age UK do a great service and help in this.

@elizabeth155 It is because I am restricted to a life on a drug far stronger than Morphine (Fentanyl) and the need to take an extra drug for breakthrough pain I started this topic. Also I live in a nursing home and there you see some horrors of human life as they come to the end of their days incontinent, unable to feed themselves and unable to communicate with others it is not an end I would like at all. The reason I finally took an advanced directive out was that in 2009 my AAA ruptured and I was on life support for three months then rehab for a further 4 months in rehab. The hospital who had my records then already had what was called a living will lodged with them since 1990 as I was suffering a great deal, but no they red lined me to the OR first then rang my next of kin and queried this DNR too late.

Peter A that is disgraceful, no one else has the right to do something like that after you have made your decision. These people should think shame. I often wonder how they would feel if it were them who was trying to exist under the circumstances you are. I suffer neuropathic pain but am nowhere like you are. My thoughts are with you Peter and I hope someone somewhere has the decency to allow you the dignity you deserve, and the right to do what you want to do.

@Elizabeth Thank you for your kind words and thoughts to me the trouble with this world is that it lacks people who have the moral fiber that you obviously have I did not mention that this was rupture number two and I made that decision when I did as I thought my arteries were pretty shot up and as I have developed aneurysm number three I was right now if anything goes wrong the home I live in has my wishes wrote down and accepted if and when should the time come again.

Now that care homes have been brought into this discussion there is a lot more I can add.

There is no guaranteed quality of life in any care home. The vast majority are underfunded, understaffed, owned for profit, at the mercy of local authorities, juggling the demands of quality control inspections, affraid that Health & Safety will hit them with yet more changes and unable to manage without taking on unqualified, untrained temporary staff.

I say this after my experiences visiting all the care homes within a 50 mile radius of the city I live in, caring for three relatives subsequently taken into homes, fighting inspectors' directors for their failings, trying to involve MPs, AMs and WAG and finding that the whole subject of care, especially for the elderly, is a mess. The overriding decision of both my wife and myself is that we cannot ever permit either of us to be so horribly relegated to such a deathly experience at the end of our lives. One relative said quite openly "I suppose this is the waiting room for death".

Now I expect there will be some who say not all care homes are bad. No, the really bad ones do get closed but not before all the serious damage has been done. Those that are heading that way give notice to relinquish their licence and close down. Then local authority has to step in and somehow arrange for all those in that home to be relocated - that might not even be within the same area or county. Visitors will see what they are shown; not what is behind the facade.

As for the rest just think about the future; what may seem good today can very quickly change.

I know of only two very good homes, but they have elderly people who are mobile which makes a great difference. Management can change between one visit and the next. The whole atmosphere changes. One or two very reliable staff leave. Changes happen almost dailly and you may not even know what has happened until the next visit and you ask. A good chef disappears to be replaced by another who is nowhere near as good. Nothing is guaranteed.

Now consider all those who are immobile. Some maybe left in their rooms without any contact between meals. Those who like a good chat find there is nobody to chat to and they quickly lose their chattiness. Dementia, the bane of the elderly as one in three of us who manage to live into our 80s will succumb. They cannot communicate so they are mishandled and suffer. How do they suffer? All I can say is that I could tell if my relative was uncomfortable from some facial movement but nobody looks at them and nobody knows them. They are slung about on the special aids into the bathroom and back, into and out of bed, and all I see is someone, low paid, lacking supervision moving a body like a sack of potatoes.

Nobody expects to need a place in a care home. But circumstances change. None of us can forecast our future let alone our future health. If you are not bothered about ending up in a care home then sobeit. But for all those who think that there is even the slightest chance of that happening to them then you need to think very carefully now about it. Government has already told us it cannot afford to pay for our care. In any case that care would be at the lowest cost and consequently the lowest quality. You will need a very large sum to cover your care and accommodation costs to enter the best home, assuming that there is one. You've got an insurance policy? Good, but what will that allow you to do? On the finance side this is another nightmare for the unwary.

Consider the simple fact that about two thirds of privately owned care homes have closed. Why? Honest people finding it impossible to continue in most of those cases. What about those big companies with large well built homes? Have you heard of Southern Cross? This is one example of what can happen when large companies own many homes. But do not take my word for this. Research on the web; how many liquidations? How many elderly people have suddenly become bereft because their little world has been turned upside down. It is also recognised that when elderly have to be moved against their will they do not live much longer.

This is probably a subject that is even less thought about than euthanasia; but it is the alternative for a large number of elderly people. Think about it.

Nice to here your points Jaguar and some of them raised sadly true, all I can say true in some and the number is rising but you do not mention or take into account those who prefer the solitary life and remain in their rooms all day with meals brought to them this is the clients choice and it has to be respected. Myself I have the onerous task of organizing activities and in doing so I have to consider the clients age state of health and the ability to travel.

You forgot to mention not only the lack of staff but getting the staff to become involved in any activities very often they say NO as it clashes with their pat routine on how they wish to run the floor that day such things as pad changes feeding all might get in a muddle if any activity runs 4-5 mins over the stated time.

Then next comes the relatives very often making wishes that are far too much on the staff EG: aunt Ethel likes to be washed and dressed this way or that way all of which takes extra on the carers daily work life.

I am lucky in a way the home I live in believes in empowering its more intelligent residents those of us who are sit in on meetings that are held to bring to light recent regulations and how this may effect the home itself.

Sadly it has not long since been taken over yet again making it four times since I first came here and from the time it was last taken over there was and is an air of uncertainty about the place with the new owner obviously only in it for the money I ask you who in their minds would want to carry on taking over one after another nursing home at the age of 67 a multimillionaire and things being run not the way it should.

The solitary life: some may do while others find it the best way to deal with an unwelcome situation. Activities: that depends very much on whether the staff are a real team; my experience here falls into two types. When all the carers/auxiliaries are Filipino or Thai they have inbuilt respect for the elderly and cooperate extremely well, and when the senior staff are very good they can engender the right atmosphere. The one or two qualified nurses that have to be on duty can also make a huge difference. The worst scenario is when the carers are of lots of different ethnic backgrounds.

Relatives can be a real pain. Here management should refer to the official regulations for that home which everyone involved has to have a copy of and point out that extras have to be paid for. So if the relatives want special services they must pay. My experiences are that the ones who complain are the ones who are not going to pay for anything. Secondly, as an aside, it could be said that the relatives can take over if they are not satisfied; they can take their own to their own home and give them the care they are demanding. What people fail to understand is that these care homes are run on very tight financial constraints which means that the level of care is basic (and all too often falls below the statutory level required). In general relatives expect much more than can be given.

It seems, Peter, you live in a large home with a goodly mix of residents. As long as there are enough of you to 'take on' management if necessary that can work (much as, say, living in one of those McCarthy & Stone developments). Only three of the homes I have visited had such a mix. But unfortunately circumstances can change, quite rapidly. I wish you well under new ownership and with your health in general. You need to keep as fit as possible while concentrating on brain fitness. Good mental activity is so necessary.

Thank you for your comments and input Jaguar you are one of the rare true advocates for our senior citizens of today the ones that were born in the baby boom years. We too live in an area where nursing homes are plenty but a lot have folded all because the local authorities ave put so much legislation our way and they just cannot afford to bring the homes into line with the RDB rating system and of course our largest scourge the CQC.

My father was in an Anchor home which is probably one of the better ones. Even then they didn't seem to have many staff for the number of residents. A good proportion had officially diagnosed dementia or milder memory problems. My father was sharp however and he and his little group of similar friends there called themselves 'the compos mentis club'.

Residents like him spent more time in their rooms. Partly because those with dementia were encouraged to be in the communal areas and he couldn't relate to them anyway..

I used to be a residential homes inspector and agree with Jaguar's comments.

I personally believe that the law regarding assisted suicide should change. i watched my nan suffer due to cancer summer last year and the way she passed was nothing like how she wanted to go. she was in constant pain,couldn't feed her self or care for self basically she lost her dignity. when she was still in the local hospital the family and my nan had a meeting with the pallitive care team and jokingly my dad said to the group that it was a shame we didnt have enough to send nan to Switzerland, and my nan replyed that it was much to the annoyance of the care team who had a go at myself and my dad for obviously not caring, to which i replyed that it wasnt not uncaring to suggest it, it was the complete opposite as when nans dog had cancer when i was little he was "put to sleep" so why should she be forced to suffer through it when she's only got less than three months in complete pain and lose all of her mobility and us struggling to cope and trying to put on brave faces when we're all slowly dying inside with her and watching her?"

I know that there will probably disagree with me and play the religion card, but I am a christian i was christened CofE and attended a pentecostal church with my nan. I believe that no one should be robbed of the choice. And I am even more grateful that Hollyoaks and Coronation Street have raised the issue and are showing the consequnces of it.

If I ever get a terminal illness I want the choice and the option to go when I want.

We need to fight for excellent palliative care services. Good Hospice type care, delivered in the person's own home , care home or in a hospice according to the individual's choice should be available to all with terminal illness, with care that maintains personal dignity and support and respite for family carers.

Equally excellent supportive care should be available to those with chronic long term conditions that enable individuals and their family carers to cope. This means providing easy access to specialist pain management and psychological support when needed to reduce almost inevitable depression. Most people with long term conditions will go through good and bad patches. Coming to terms with failing bodily functions can be hard, and it can take time to find the best ways of coping. Cuts to social care with few qualifying for any care means fewer can lead the independent lives they want to' leaving many unnecessarily housebound It is easy to get depressed when continual barriers are put in your way to doing normal everyday things' or medications that are helpful suddenly stopped and changed to ones a restricted local formulary says we should have. There is a tendency by much of society to make us feel a burden, we are seen by many as scroungers if we claim benefits, that many of us have worked for in the past. Too many are told they are suddenly fit to work, despite having multiple impairments and taking large amounts of strong analgesics. Even getting up and dressed may take hours.

We need appropriate care and support to lead more normal lives and be able to contribute to society, not easy access to bumping us off as soon as we get depressed,

@susan342

You are asking for the impossible. Even if all agreed to your suggestions there is no money for it. The cuts we have seen are because we have been living above our means. Even with all that money Brown threw around we are still unable to provide for the elderly, long term sick and all those with terminal illness. You are asking for nirvana.

Those who get hospice care today are fortunate; there are not enough hospices let alone beds to accommodate all our needs. Care in the home is great if it can be arranged as the patient needs it BUT here again it is the cost. If you can afford it it is still difficult to find sufficient help; relying on local authorities is hopeless.

So those of us who do want to be dependent on others, in whatever way and cost, and who simply want to make our own decisions will be helping those who want to rely upon others. When you have witnessed the pain and distress of relatives and others, in hospitals, hospices and care homes you will know if that is what you are prepared to endure and it is your right to make that choice. Some of us do not want that; we want to make other decisions about how and when to die.

You are falling into the trap of believing the state will bump us off. Rubbish. That will not happen if only because in the UK we take great care with our legislation. On top of that we have the examples of how other countries have created laws that have been proven to work as we would expect.

When medical science can cure all illness the position may be different. That is a long way off. Meanwhile we have a growing elderly population which means there will be more and more of us needing care and attention. The limited resources we now have are woefully insufficient. What you are seeking is an impossible dream.

Error. In my above comment, third para, it should read '......who do NOT want to be...'.

My apologies.