DWP now refusing to post out copy of PIP assessment report before Award decided?

So you had a crap report but success with your award!?  Cannot be bad! Hope you celebrated!  Blew a party popper!?

As a matter of fact, have you ensured that the whole of the assessors report has been sent to you?

I only ask in that at least one page is generally omitted - normally headed up - Harmful Information'. In most cases it is a blank piece of paper. In my case it was a private report made by the assessor for the benefit of the DWP only on what he actually thought of me which he dared not put in the formal report part. 

Quite eye opening to say the least when I forced them to hand a copy of it over to me. Mind you the DWP said that it wasn't normal for ATOS to do this and it wasn't in their remit - they apologised on behalf of ATOS - uummm I thought, caught with trousers down me thinks!

The content was so damning of me that it would have ensured that I would not have been able to get any award in the future. What did surprise me was that a copy of it eventually went to the appeal tribunal, but was not in the bundle that I received!!

you mean they've a file on me? I'll have be careful or they il turn me into a cult!

yes I see it now, tissue thin paper, the brown stains. what do you think they were telling me they thought. the cards! dodgy numbers bad grammar. thought it weird spelling my name wrong. Richard de cranium. or something like that. I mean. do I look Chinese? how very dare they! I'll keep you posted chaps.. and chapettes

joke as you may, but the document was real and not in my imagination.

Have a look when you get the copy of the assessors report and try and find the sheet headed - Harmful Information - it wont be there but the numbers of the sheets will show one missing.

http://dpac.uk.net/2013/01/dwp-and-atos-make-a-mockery-of-the-data-protection-act/

 

Oh Ivan, you do cheer me up with your funny posts, they really make me smile.  

I must admit the quality of the paper that the report was typed on was absolute rubbish, very thin and greyish  in colour.  Also I don't know if anyone esle had a page missing, but there was no page 4   

At least there was no brown sauce or tea stains 

Hi sukes 

yeah you got me curious so I had a look at my report , no page 4 either, But it's gone from 3 to five on the same page so I don't think there's anything missing. 

No tea stains though

That's the same as mine, gone from 3 to 5 on the same page.  Very strange  

Just a thought,  I'm sure I read somewhere on here that you could check the report against something (not sure what) to see the award you could possibly receive, as long as the decision maker agreed that is. 

Oh that would be good does anybody know?

 I know you can see what points you get for each discriptor or is that not what you mean?

Sukes.

just looked in my Sunday paper. no page 4. grrr.

looked on ceefax page 444 for news. nowt. not a sausage.

picks up my readers digest. guess what. no page 4. remembered then I'd cancelled my membership on yes you've guessed it the fourth!

top it all off my mates told me just that 3+1=4. but also does the same t'other way round. 1+3=?.

spooky. I'll be in touch.

Yes, I sure someone said to google  something or other to get up some kind of chart and if you put in the descriptors chosen by the assessor, it should indicate how many points you have and apparently shows which level of award - according to the report, you should receive. 

Maybe I dreamt it all.  

not heard of that chart on Google. I'll ring a few mates see if they know. if it's so I'll let you know.

Hi sukes 

go on the CAB website you can find what points you get for each discriptor on there .

but the DM has to agree with the assessor

That's the citizens advice website they have very helpful advice on filling forms in for PIP and other benefits and you can download a table of discriptors and what points you get for each of them.

And I just remembered that the benefits and work website has a thing called take the PIP test which will tell you how many points you would get if the DM agree with the assessor.  

You don't have to pay for that

Thank you will go and check it out x

 

Well according to the descriptors suggested by the assessor it is 21 points for daily living and 16 for mobility.  It will be interesting to see what the decision maker has to say  -  watch this space 

Well you should be okay then that's well over what you need.

It would be great, but I'm not holding my breath.  

Page 4 is the one headed up - 'Harmful Information - Must NOT be Copied to the Claimant'

This is the sheet that the assessor can complete knowing that it will not normally be seen by the claimant. It goes straight to the DWP and stays there. The only time that it is ever produced for a 3rd party is when it is copied to the Tribunal by the DWP but not to the appellant. 

On my page 4, as I have already mentioned, was a rant by the assessor of exactly what he thought of me - it was personal and libellous!

I was described by the assessor as 'obnoxious, arrogant, deceptive and racially minded in my thoughts and opinions'.

Personally i wouldn't place that much emphasis on what the site tells you.

When I checked it out to see if it was worth moving over to PIP from DLA (HRM & MRC) I was given the grand total of 4 points only for Care and nothing for Mobility.

Based entirely on that result I refused to be transferred over as I could not cope with what would be in store for me.

Looking around the net since and after speaking with AgeUK it turns out that the result was way under what I would have got. Too late now but I am content as I am free of all re-assessments.

Yeah same here won't be happy till I get a decision 

A good decision that is what I meant.

Did you ever consider suing him Les.

Of course.

But there were two problems - lack of funds to support a claim of libel and secondlt the DWP apologised that it had happened. They did actually send me out a revised copy of the offending sheet with all of the comments obliterated out with black pen. So as far as they were concerned their job was done.

The only problem I have is the not knowing if the document still exists and that the blanked out copy I got was sent to shut me up!

Many times I have wondered why I seem to have been singled out with ESA, DLA and IIDB since that happened. With the DLA I have always had either a 'lifetime or indefinite' award, yet they consistently every couple of years went through a complete re-assessment. This happened with ESA and IIDB as well.,

As I have said before for those three benefit claims I have had a total of 16 face to face assessments between 1995 and 2004 and then from 2011 to date a total of 13 years. From 2004 to 2011 all of the benefits were closed down through the failure of me to respond to the DWP - I was too ill/and in hospital to deal with anything, never mind the DWP.

So yes I did consider it, but the financial implications were far too one sided.

 

There must be a copy on their files if they turned you down that many times!  Almost like you are blacklisted!  I think it is terrible that the assessor wrote such 'unprofessional' things about you - you could have sued for slander!  It makes me feel sick that assessors have a page to write a personal summary of an applicants character when they have literally met them 30 or so minutes before!

actually just read Les post he sent it last night but idiot ivan here thought he was pulling my leg. hope didn't offend him.

No, everybody and anybody can think what they like of me.

I really would love someone on here to challenge the DWP on their own case and after receiving the assessors report - demand sight of page 4 for their own peace of mind.

I would suggest that you will get the brush off with all manner of excuses being given.

Normally harmful information refers to things like the claimant being unaware that they are terminally ill, or other serious conditions which may have come to light from any other information the DWP have obtained for the claim.  This is not copied to the claimant for obvious reasons, but again, if the claimant goes to an independent tribunal they will have a copy of everything.  A bit puzzled by your account of your own experience though Les, because from your previous posts it appears you didn't actually apply for PIP, or are you referring to an ESA/DLA report.

I wouldn't advise ANYBODY not to make a claim based on a self assessment.  You can't really blame the B&W website because they clearly state that it is your own assessment of your condition and that an assessor may have very different ideas.   The self assessment on this website is a direct copy of the DWP assessment criteria and the points  in each descriptor, which is widely available, so I'm sure others have self assessed themselves.  The self test is certainly not intended for the purposes of deciding whether or not to apply and I wouldn't want anyone on here to think the B&W website is irresponsible because they have some excellent guides to making a claim and appealing decisions.  They also campaigned hard when PIP was first consulted on and the assessment would have been a lot harsher if they had not succeeded in getting some criteria changed.

Hi Pam

It was following an ESA face to face examination.

Yes I am fully aware what the 'Harmful Information' sheet should be used for. In my case it was used by the assessor to put in writing exactly what he thought of me for the eyes of the DWP only.

It all came about following a SAR application by me to find out what info the DWP held regarding the ESA claim. I was told that I had scored 0 points. In the meantime whilst waiting for the copy file I lodged an appeal. Some 6 weeks later I received a bundle of documents from the DWP. This was going to be quite helpful as it contained everything that the assessor had done and how the DWP had come to the decision to refuse the ESA claim.

Whilst ploughing through the bundle I found a photcopy of this 'Harmful Information' page which clearly showed that a 'post it' label had been attached to it saying - 'This must not be copied'. Unfortunately they copied it and sent it to me.

Obviously when I read what had ben written by the assessor I was not amused. It was nothing less than an attempt to destroy my credability, honesty, professional standing and integrity.

I complained to both ATOS and the DWP and the only reply I received back was from the DWP who said that they were sorry this had happened ( ??? they were caught out)) and that the words written on the offending document had now been obliterated. They actually sent me a copy of the revised document to which someone had used a black marker pen to strike out the whole paragraph.

 

Wow, that's awful.  Mind you it doesn't surprise me that you were sent this by mistake.  A,couple of people I know actually made successful complaints to the DWP and in both cases the final decision statements included copies of internal emails which were clearly labelled as not to be copied to the claimant !!!  Unbelievable.

I know. What really upset me was the malicious intent that the assessor had in his mind when he wrote it.

I wouldn't have minded if he had instead said that I was far too clean and well dressed to be suffering from any mental illness or that I was seen to arrive on my own in a dark grey large BMW car driven by what could only be described as a large and intimidating man dressed in a suit wearing dark sunglasses!!

Something of that ilk what have seen me smiling!!

But you do need to be aware that a decision maker using a report from an Atos or Capita health professional may not reach the same conclusion that you do about your eligibility for PIP.

This email has been sent to you, because the person completing our web form PIP assessment gave your email address

PERSONAL INDEPENDENCE PAYMENT (PIP)

Thank you for taking the PIP test. Please bear in mind that this is your assessment of what you think you should score - a decision maker may come to an entirely different conclusion.  

DAILY LIVING COMPONENT

You assessed yourself as scoring the following points for the daily living component of PIP:

3 c. Needs supervision, prompting or assistance to be able to manage therapy that takes no more than 3.5 hours a week. 2 points

4 b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points

Total points: 4

To be eligible for the daily living component of PIP you need to score:

8-11 points to be awarded the standard rate; or

12 points or more to be awarded the higher rate.

You assessed yourself as being eligible for NO AWARD of the daily living component of PIP

MOBILITY COMPONENT.

You assessed yourself as scoring the following points for the mobility component of PIP:

Total points: 0

To be eligible for the mobility component of PIP you need to score:

8-11 points to be awarded the standard rate; or

or 12 points or more to be awarded the higher rate.

You assessed yourself as being eligible for NO AWARD of the mobility component of PIP.

Unfortunately, we cannot enter into any correspondence about your results or the way the test works, though members can post general enquiries in the discussion forum. 

Good luck,

Steve Donnison

I agree about the warning but the implication of that warning is that people could easilly assess themselves too generously and then wonder why the DWP decided on a much lower award. Reading that warning and having had years of experience of the DWP that when after assessing your own capabilities I have yet to hear of a case were the DWP make an award far better than what you asked for.

I believe that there should be a warning attached to that self test that says "any over estimate or UNDER ESTIMATE can result in a totally different result"

I must point out that I have seen on this forum and others that when somebody asks what would they likely get they are directed to the B&W PIP self test - it is seen generally by most as a very good indicator of achievable points. 

If someone asks about benefit entitlement they are directed to - Turn2us.

I am not saying that their website is anything but good, what I am saying is that a lot of people assume that PIP test it is one, if not, the best there is.

Obviously with that level of reputation it seemed to me that at the end of the day after going through a MR/appeal over the closure of my DLA the end result was quite likely to a be a NIL award.

.   

Hi my friend. It was not in your imagination. When you request your Nhs records from your hospital they omit anything that states hamful. They do this if they think that if the assessment of the patient could upset the patients state of mind then it should be omitted from the requested records. Someone at Atos is telling there health professionals to put lies here because the client will see these lies so you can make up what you want. Atos don't yet know that in these records will come out in court though. Atos, Maximus and Capita are evil money loving crooks. They are stealing from the helpless and putting the proceeds in there pockets. They are copying what the Nazi's did to the Jews in world war 2.

PAGE 4 is MISSING "wake up"

Sorry I meant to say that the clients will NOT see what lies are out here. Tried to edit but couldn't find how to.

Don't panic Sukes you'll see what they said about you on page four when you go to your tribunal. I'm looking forward to what the Hp said on page 4 about me.

Yes it's called page four "harmful" the page you don't get to see unless you go to a tribunal. That's the page when they state that you was break dancing, preparing a meal for 1,000 people and juggling even though you don't have any hands during your assessment. I can see why they would state harmful.

1 + 3 = Atos bull s£&@ page about you. And yes your are right they don't publish this page on ceefax. DWP say it's rare to omit this page. Well the DWP must think a tree is rare in the forest and it's rare for Atos employees to make up lies. I'm off to eat some rare stake although for some reason they always burn it.

Except that it is not ATOS capita or maximum who make the final decision - it's the DWP.

Hello George,

I've had my award from DWP so won't have to go to tribunal, unless you know something I don't  

The point I was making is that to see what is written in page 4 about you in your assessment report you have to go to a tribunal and request this. Sorry for any confusion.

You can always try a freedom of information request. Anything the DWP hold on computer is then up for grabs.

Will not help you. Anything marked "harmful" will not be included. It's obvious that Atos is using this rule to their advantage. Atos must be making a killing bending the rules for their own evil gains and bonus target payments they receive. I take it that your defence of them means either you have a very, very high up role within the orginazation or you have your eyes wide shut. Oh how I wish so was Nieve.

No apologies needed George, I'm just more dim than usual at the mo.  

Don’t you dare speak to me like that.  I am nothing whatever to do with the DWP and I am not ‘defending’ anyone. Neither am I naïve. I  have been severely disabled all my life and like most people on here I stand to lose a lot if I cannot make a proper case when my time comes to transfer from DLA to PIP.  I have been involved with the consultations on PIP right from the beginning in 2010, as an individual, part of a campaign group for disabled people (without whom the assessment would be a lot harsher) and as part of my disability support group.  

I joined this site in an effort to share some of my experience and to hopefully try to reassure people that despite the horror stories out there, there ARE good assessors, and people DO get fair awards.  To be quite honest I am appalled at some of the utter nonsense talked by some people on here.  I have just read another of your posts comparing assessors to Nazis.  I do wish people would think things through before they post things like this on sites likely to be seen by vulnerable people who, a lot of the time, are seeking reassurance, not expecting to be frightened out of their wits by nonsense stated in such vile terms.  ATOS,Maximus and Capita all have their own websites on which they freely give information on what to expect at an assessment, they have a customer charter and you are free to complain to them, or DWP,if you feel you have good reason.  Yes, they have all had their share of very bad press and judging by the recent sackings, they need to tighten their recruitment policies, but it  is ministers and their advisers who design benefit rules,  DWP who have to carry them out and the assessment providers who have to assess claimants according to those rules.  These are the facts, and just because various claimants may not agree with their assessment, it does not mean that the assessor or the DWP is telling lies about them – it just means that they do not see their disability in the same terms.  The DWP and assessors  may make mistakes and the benefit may not be the best designed to fit the needs of disabled people, and that is why there is a system of mandatory reconsideration and independent tribunal. Admittedly the amount of people going to tribunal and winning is high at the moment, but remember that this is a relatively new benefit and as such has to be tried, tested and changed accordingly – this takes time.  Disability is a complex and multi faceted issue and no one system of assessment is ever going to cover every aspect.  Join disability support groups, set up campaign groups, lobby your MPs, but for goodness sake inform yourselves properly first and do it from a position of knowledge and experience, and not with ill informed, bigoted and inflammatory statements which have no basis in fact – the press and media are already peddling ill informed, judgemental and bigoted rubbish about disabled people to the British public, who, on the face of it, appear to be lapping it up, if the ease with which all these benefit changes have been pushed through is anything to go by.  Please don’t add to it. Your comments and likening of benefit staff to Nazi Germany is not only trite, it is way over the top and I would imagine, very offensive to Jewish people whose relatives suffered terribly under the Nazis.  This type of rhetoric has no place in a reasoned debate about disability and attendant issues. 

 Benefits and Work website have a self assessment test using the descriptors and points system currently in use. Please remember that your own assessment probably won't be the same as that of an assessor because you are coming at it from a personal point of view, whereas an assessor will be more objective and will be following strict guidelines.  For example, you may think you score the maximum points for needing help from another person with something like showering/bathing or dressing, and an assessor may award less because they consider you only to need an aid or appliance rather than physical help.  You may be better reading the guidance for assessors - the handbook is available online somewhere and gives a better idea of what the assessor is looking for - but don't be tempted to try to make your disability or condition 'fit' the score - this won't work because the assessors are trained to spot this kind of thing.

Hi my friend. It was not in your imagination. When you request your Nhs records from your hospital they omit anything that states hamful. They do this if they think that if the assessment of the patient could upset the patients state of mind.....

Well that isn't actually the case - well for me it wasn't. I received one of many files from the different hospitals I am under across the country. In that file buried about 2" down was a piece of paper that stated that I was 'DNR' No one asked me at the time if I agreed and my wife also says that she doesn't know anything about it.

Thankfully I pulled through although it took 7 years before I was able to feel some part normal. I dread to think what could have happened.

 

Thank you Pam,

I agree with you and luckily enough the doctor who assessed me obviously realised that I was not exaggerating. 

I went through the Athos assessment for PIp 6 weeks ago. I was given zero points for bit care and mobility. I then received the Assesor's report. I was stunned that she lied throughout. My daughter came with me and she too was amazed. Everything written by the assessor was a lie. I then gathered medical reports from my GP and from an independent doctor and also from my Health care professional. All these reports indicate that everything the assessor allergies is disproved by my medical conditions. The assessor lied that I refused to be examined ! Anyway I rang the DWP today to see the progress of my reconsideration request. He told me they have sent the medical reports to Athis for an opinion. Anyone know what this means.. Thanks

First Abe the Health Care Professionals don't lie they give an opinion. That opinion might be completely wrong but all the same it's an opinion.

Also if they didn't have the medical evidence you have now produced then it is not unreasonable to assume why they came to their conclusions. It would have been much better for everyone if you could have produced this evidence with the initial PIP application rather than just blame the assessor who simply had to work with what he/she had.

That said you have done the correct thing and gathered evidence to challenge the decision. What has happened now is the evidence you have produced has been sent back to ATOS for their consideration. Based on how strong the evidence is (it must be quite strong for the DWP to refer it back) then the assessor will be given a chance to change their opinion.

If they do then you could be awarded more points (possibly enough to gain benefit) if not then it would be up to a Tribunal to decide the strength of your argument.