Gynaecologist Useless!!!

I've a feeling I've seen a group for it on this site?

That was referring to kitchen scleourosis

Yes she seemed incompetent to me too. I think I would have cancelled the appt if I had been in your shoes too. Yes she said she saw dryness. But I can't understand why she dismissed the bladder side of it.

They always dismiss that with me too. Thinking urologist is best for that. I want a bionic body lol

Yes maybe I should ask to see a Urologist. Not good when they dismiss these issues is it.

Yes a different gynae might help.

Yes that is one thing to be grateful for Jools. I will give the steroid cream a whirl and see why happens.

Must admit I agree with what you are saying here Nancy.

Wow! thank you so much for taking the time to write your message, very useful!

 

Yes, like Susan said, Very useful. Many thanks for typing it out. Much appreciated.

Plus in the US its becoming very unafordable..actually scares me the cost

Yes I think it would scare me too.

Great info j78001.  However, I would not touch oral hrt (as in oestrogen) with a bargepole.   Too many problems.  I have been on oestradiol implanted pellets (best invention since sliced bread) till they stopped making them, then transdermal patches for 26+ years and never going off them.  I will be 65 this year.

I have since chased up a compound chemist who makes the implant pellets and have gone back on them now, but so far, I don't think they are as good as the original, although the chemist insists it is the same.  I am keeping notes, and keeping my patches ready on hand for signs of menopause symptoms.  My body seems to need a lot of oestrogen and lets me know when it is too low.  So I am also trialling pregnenolone.

I also use vagifem supps and oestriol cream on outer bits.  As a result, I have not had VA.  I don't think drs let women know what is down the track for them if they don't use HRT.  There are a number of health issues.  Prolapse is another problem through lack of oestrogen.

While a lot of drs have their own personal biases which they lay on their patients, we have to educate ourselves and read more than the dramatic headlines about hrt use.

 

Sheryl, my doctor didn't tell me what was down the line USING Vagifem.  She gave me three times the recommended dose for 16 months telling me it wouldn't hurt at all, despite my mother having had breast cancer and me being against all forms of hormone treatment (and Vagifem IS oestrogen) and I got endometrial cancer.  Just last week I was sent to a specialist to check a breast lump and have an ultrasound scan as well (they think it's OK) but they were more concerned because of the Vagifem.  This is all something that you can't rely on a doctor to give you the full picture of and you need to research online and make an informed decision.  I've found doctors seem to push hormone treatment when there are other really good options that aren't mentioned, such as the many  studies that have been done on hyalaronic acid pessaries (Balance Activ Menopause plus, for instance) that show positive improvement on VA with use, not just masking the symptoms, but actually improving it.  I suspect doctors aren't yet trained to be up on the latest research on this though.  My concern is that Vagifem is only supposed to be used for a limited period, but what happens when you stop it - you're back to square one?????  I've seen so many women say they're good on it but the condition recurrs when they're off it again, so something like hyalaronic acid, that is safe to take permanently, if it will work for someone, would be better as a first option in my view.  I think hormones should be a last resort, yet seems to be the first choice of a lot of GP's.

I wouldn't touch oral HRT with a barge pole either.

Gynae gave me a prescription for GYNEST cream (Esrtriol) yesterday and also Dermovate cream for the LS but I don't think I've got LS.

Think I will have to look into the Balance Active Menopause plus Chris. Either that or the Sea Buckthorn capsules because I would also rather do anything than go down the HRT route.

I saw someone suggest you ask for a referral to a dermatologist Shirley.  I just would so like to see something help you.  Did the Carlson E pessaries help at all, or just a bit, or no help?  It's all useful for women on here to know what might help even if it's a bit, so just be honest and say if they were useless:-)   Has anyone who's got severe symptoms used Balance Active Menopause Plus for any length of time?  I never had severe symptoms but have used coconut organic oil for a while now and that's sorted out my mild symptoms.

Yes Chris the Vit E Suppositories do help thank you. Sometimes they work well quickly them other times the effect can wear off quickly too. Like a week ago I used one late afternoon and I was burning a couple of hours later! But that doesn't happen often. Mostly they do help. I wonder if the Doc would refer me to a dermatologist. The female Docs wouldn't even refer me to gynae! It was an Asian male doctor who did that!

I know the GP's are pushed to stop referrals where they can, but I just feel it's so wrong that women have to beg to get help in this situation.  You'd expect other women to be more sympathetic but perhaps it's not happened to them yet, so they've no idea!

Well the hyalaronic acid in the pessaries certainly seems to have a good review on all the studies that have been done now.  Do let us know what you try, how long for, and the results, will you?  I SO hope you find an answer.

I'm glad they are helping.  I'm wondering if it works better if there is some moisturisation to improve dryness before using the Balance Activ but it's only a thought - I really have no idea, so let us know how it works for you.  I'm wondering if using the Carlson E between the use of the Balance Activ might be good.... it's so difficult when you're fumbling your way through it, isn't it.

Yes, Vagifem is oestradiol (bio-identical) oestrogen.  I have never heard of there being a strength 3 x more than recommended.  I was using 25 mcg 3 x times a week.  Then the manufacturer reduced the dose to 10 mcg and I use it every 2nd night which is slightly more than 3 times a week.  Its effects are not meant to go further than the vagina.

I have/had very bad endometriosis which surgeon tried to remove as much as possible when I had my hysterectomy and oopherectomy (ovaries were blown out by endo).  I was put on some Ralovera (Provera) to help prevent activity of any remaining endo by the oestrogen.  I have not heard or read of anyone getting endometrial cancer from vagifem, and have been on it for nearly 26 years which I said before.  There is no time limit on it (here anyway).

There is a time limit on commencing oestrogen though.  It should not be used years after the onset of menopause.  That is problematic.

It has me wondering if oestrogen is manufactured differently for UK than it is for Australia, with all the problems I hear from these blogs.

A lot of women in these blogs have not been advised of how HRT will help them and if mentioned, have been warned off instead.  When, here in Australia, we are all for it, and don't regret it.

I have some friends who did not use oestrogen at all, because they did not have much or any menopause symptoms at all.  Now they are suffering VA, and prolapse, not to mention weight gain and other problems.

All the women I know of who have breast cancer, or other female organ cancers have not used hrt at all.  Weird, isn't it?

 

Thanks Chris. I will try your ideas when I have got the Balance Active. Yes very difficult thumbling our way through, I agree.

If you look at Vagifem's own page, you'll see that the prescribers information is twice a week, not three times.  Vagifem point out that the estrogen does get into the system.  They reduced the dose from 25mg to 10 because they wanted to reduce the risk of endometrial cancer.  I know women who have overdosed on estrogen and had breast cancer as well.  I also know many women who have never taken hormones and have no problem with prolapse or vaginal atrophy.  My personal opinion is that hormones aren't something to mess around with and if there is an alternative then it's worth trying that first.  It's not just cancer risks, it's thrombosis, and stroke and all sorts of things.  I'm not saying women should never take hormones under any circumstances because for some the poor quality of life, if it can't be solved with alternatives, may well mean that they should consider hormone treatment, but I don't believe it's something to be rushed into, and certainly don't believe taking higher doses than manufacturers recommendations are a good idea.  Vagifem were horrified when we told them my GP had me on 10mg 6 nights a week and pointed out that their recommendations were twice a week after the initial two week higher dose period, and also it should be for the minimum time to achieve the desired result and 16 months was a long time!  I seriously believe that manufacturers warnings are there for a reason and if they feel the need to 'cover themselves', it's because these things can happen, and do.

I understand that you're experience has made you wary and rightly so but as with everything it does depend on a persons susceptibility also. It must be awful to have to deal with something that may in your case have been exacerbated by Oestrogen.

The key thing sheryl said is she had a hysterectomy including ovaries this is my case also. Therefore our case is slightly different with no oestrogen at all meaning we would naturally require more of a top up.

I think it comes down to making informed decisions - hearing the pros and cons of something that can cause harm, and it seems often doctors are biased one way or the other and you don't get to hear a balanced view.  As I said, I understand for some women hormones are going to need to be considered if their quality of life is so bad without them though if other products haven't worked.

I think most women who have full hysterectomys have to go on some type of hormone therapy. My mom years ago had a hysterectomy with her ovaries removed and had to take the Premeran pill for years after.

She didnt however have cancer.

I'm not too clued up about this aspect but isn't it recommened that they go on hormone therapy at that point rather than a lot of years later?  Is it safer at that point?  I guess also it depends on the age the hysterectomy is done?  For instance, if it's done many years after menopause the estrogen aspect isn't going to make so much difference? 

Taking up Lee's point my mum had a hysterectomy and is still taking it at a low dose 30 years without cancer. And yet I had a family member who died at a younger age of cancer without it . It's subjective really. Normally you would never completely lose your oestrogen it would just decline. In my case my hormones were always out of kilter causing problems from teens to now hence the hysterectomy. Not quite a cure unfortunately

As I said though, I just think it should be an informed decision, and it often isn't. 

She had to go on it right away and continued it for years.

How old was she?

6 nights a week is over the top and I would have checked out that advice immediately which it seems you did not resulting in the problem you had.  I have been using vagifem for 26 years but I did my homework right at the beginning.  So my decision to keep using it is very informed.

Perhaps your endometriol cancer was already in the pipeline before you started, and nobody knew.  BTW, how do they treat it?  Radium therapy, chemo?

There is no medication which does not have a long, long list of 'possible' side effects and if we were worried about those, we would not be able to take anything.

No, we cannot depend on drs.  A study on hrt was carried out on women who were already past menopause symptoms.  They were given hrt to see what happens ending with some disastrous results and this study is always the one that is brought into play without telling the details.  One must read the whole study to see what women were in the study and the relevance to you.  There may be none.

They have probably done a study on women with the breast cancer gene and resulting in breast cancer.  Headlines - hrt causes breast cancer!

Even my current gp referred to the outcome of this study and I had to remind her that that study was flawed and even the research team has finally admitted it, and that was a few years ago now.

Yes, it appears that it is less problematic to start using oestrogen early and not years later, when you can't stand it anymore.

I hope you find a solution to your problem soon.  I have read about A-ma-ta with Pueraria Mirifica, but even 'natural' products have risks.

 

Id say about 48

Just reread the instructions for Vagifem 10 mcg, and they recommend 6 nights a week for 2 weeks, then drop back to 2 a week.  Maybe you did not get the message to not continue 6 times a week after the first 2 weeks.  Reading the instruction sheet regarding this would have raised questions for me, if the dr had recommended to continue at 6 per week past that time.

There is no mention of risk of endometriol cancer on their instruction sheet, and the 'very rare' risk of cancer of breast, ovaries and the lining of the womb are reported to be related to 'some' types of systemic hrt, and they refer to additional side effects that have been reported to be associated with 'other' types of oestrogen treatment.

As I said, maybe Austn hrt is different, but I doubt it.

 

Ah so probably before menopause would have started.   So she'd have noticed a sudden drop in oestrogen with the hysterectomy.  Interesting though.  Doctors have been quite happy for her to be on hormones all those years?

Mom passed away 9 years ago at the age of 87. All i remember is she took them a long time.

Sheryl my GP kept telling me that it was completely safe and scoffed at my concerns telling me she was a trained gynie and had used the stronger dose for years and that I needed it because she felt the normal dose wasn't working and I had a prolapse pessary (I actually found out afterwards that the problem was she wasn't rinsing off abrasive powder from the pessary ring that she was supposed to before insertion)  and that the weaker dose wasn't enough, so please don't tell me I hadn't done my homework.  And three nights a week is over recommended dose, yet you appear to think that's OK?  I was between the devil and the deep blue sea.  Yes, there are lots of studies and there are lots of views about hormone treatments by people who are experts in this field and where some say it's OK, some clearly don't and some experts are saying that the new guidelines to offer more women HRT will definitely raise the number with breast cancer over the coming years.  So even those starting HRT at menopause are still at risk and from what I've seen guidelines are that HRT should be used for a limited period BECAUSE OF THE RISK.  On the one hand you've told me I should have checked out the dose of Vagifem but on the other hand you've just said it's fine to ignore the list of possible side effects otherwise we'd never take anything.  My point is that there are many many women who have never taken any hormones who don't get problems of any sort, and there are also many who have had problems occur but these can be dealt with by medications or treatments that have less or no risk.  Anyone saying that there is no risk with hormones is burying their head in the sand.  While I appreciate some women have such a poor quality of life and hormones make that difference to them so they are prepared to take the risk, that's fine - that is an educated decision.  I think for you to say 'they have probably done a study on women with the breast cancer gene and resulting in breast cancer so the headlines were hrt causes breast cancer is so demeaning to those poor women who have had breast cancer after taking hrt, and you've used in imaginary scenario to present the case that hrt doesn't cause breast cancer.

I actually took the decision to stop Vagifem in the summer of 2014 because I was feeling unwell and didn't know what could be causing it.  Several times in years before that I'd told the GP I wanted to stop using it and she'd told me I was being silly - there was no risk and that I'd get problems if I didn't keep using it.  I discovered then that it was the Vagifem causing a discharge which improved when I stopped it.    My solution - coconut oil.  My atrophy was never actually a real problem at all as far as symptoms went and the most I've ever experienced was slight irritation around the vulva and coconut oil works like a dream. 

I was fast tracked to a hysterectomy operation where it was grade one, stage one and they thought it was a pretty recent developement so no further treatment was required apart from check ups.  Vagifem do not plaster warnings over their site for nothing.  And although I was on a higher dose than the twice weekly recommendation, their warnings are for the recommended dose and you can't say they shouldn't be taken seriously.  There IS a risk with hormone treatment, so my personal view is that if there is an alternative that is safer, you're better off with that and it's worth trialing other products first.  Especially the hyalaronic acid products that studies have shown no risk so they can be used even daily if wanted (and my consuiltant gynie said this too) and they have been shown to act like hormones and improve atrophy and not just mask symptoms.  But these don't get mentioned by GP's, so a balanced view, with options simply isn't given.  In my experience it was hormones or nothing.  And from reading other posts over time on this group many women have had the same option as I did.

Sheryl you must think I'm incredibly stupid!  'maybe I didn't get the message not to continue 6 times a week after the first two weeks'???????  I had these ON PRESCRIPTION, with the dose clearly stated and discussed!  As I've just explained at length - my GP told me I needed this dose and ressured me several times when I wanted to stop, that there WAS NO RISK.  You clearly haven't looked at the link I sent you of 'prescribers information' about endometrial cancer with Vagifem.  It's plastered all over their sheet. if you google Vagifem prescribers information and you'll see novo-pi  vagifem (I've taken the normal website bits out in the hopes this link will go straight through) you can't miss it.  Obviously I wasn't given prescribers information when I was given Vagifem though.  I don't now have an instruction leaflet to see what they say now.  But that link does make it clear that there is some systemic involvement with Vagifem, particularly in the first two weeks at the higher dose but even at the lower dose it still gets into the system and still counts as HRT.  I didn't find this prescribers information until after I had endometrial cancer.  Ah - my husband has just found an old leaflet from a pack of Vagifem that we'd kept.  It clearly refers to Vagifem as HRT on this package leaflet.  Quote parts (it's much too long to quote all!)  'HRT and cancer - taking oestrogen only HRT tablets (they mean pessaries because that's how they describe them) for a long time can increase the risk of developing cancer of the womb lining (the endometrium).  It is uncertain whether more than a year or repeated use of local vaginally administered oestrogen products possess a similar risk.  Vagifem has been shown to have very low systemic absorbtiion.Then it goes on to say about blood clots in the veins and stroke and breast cancer and possible side effects are headache, stomach pain, vginal bleeding, discharge or discomfort.  Well don't tell me that there isn't much systemic absorbtion if it can cause a headache!  But the point is, you need to see the prescribers infornation on the Vagifem site to see the risk of endometrial cancer because the leaflet plays it down greatly.  This is why I've felt I've done my best to help people on this group know what they're dealing with by giving this link where the risks are put much more blatantly than they are in the leaflet that comes with the product!

I hope this might help you understand the reality of Vagifem.  You really do need to read Prescribers Information to get the full picture!

I'm so glad she was OK Lee until a good age:-)

I have to say im a little confused here as I remember a conversation where you had said she had asked you why she had put you on such a high dose?

No confusion - yes, she did.  AFTER I GOT THE ENDOMETRIAL CANCER!  She left the practice shortly after.

I can understand why your so upset about this. I don't think all gps are up to speed with things I had to fight to see a specialist whilst they kept fobbing me off with more Vagifem. Everyone's body requires differing amounts depending on the severity of symptoms. I'd recommend alternatives as a first line of treatment which Dr's don't do and then moving up the chain of Hrt.

There is still a risk of Endo cancer even with TAHBSO as some Endo cells can get left behind ive recently found out. Very difficult to not put yourself at risk but less of a chance maybe.

Yes, it's the same after the hysterectomy too - the vaginal vault scar tissue is the most vulnerable place for the cancer to come back.  They've said mine is unlikely but there is a risk, hence the check ups.  But when I saw the gynie for a prolapse pessary last autumn (the prolapse repair had failed) the first thing she asked me was if I'd had a mammogram since the hysterectomy, and when I found a soft lump a couple of weeks ago they sent me for a fast referral to get it checked straight away.    What bothers me is that the prescribers information is so much more specific for Vagifem than the information they put in the packaging, and unless GP's pass that on, we're not going to know what they are supposed to know and discuss with us.  What really puzzled me was despite coming off Vagifem as my choice, before I was even sent for a scan just in case of endometrial cancer, my GP actually wrote to the cancer consultant after my op asking if it would be OK if I went back on Vagifem after the hysterectomy!  We were gobsmacked at that - there is NO way I'd have considered it and the consultant was quick to say no way too!  But we suspect it was some sort of attempt for her to manipulate him to say it was safe.  When they fit the pessaries for prolapse they often use oestrogen cream then but I've requested no oestrogen now so they use KY jelly instead!  I make sure I don't have food or drink that is high in oestrogen too.  What hit me most of all was that by using just organic coconut oil I have no problems and I don't think the Vagifem ever did anything anyway!  I think it gave me a discharge to start with and the GP thought that was because I needed more and just increased the dose accordingly, and by leaving the abrasive powder on the prolapse pessary every time she changed it, it cause abrasion against the cervix, and that's actually what caused bleeding, and it was that bleeding that got me sent for the scan, because my cervix was totally closed, so the blood that was collecting in the uterus from the cancer was trapped in there.  So in a way I was lucky!  But I'm not upset for me anymore - I put it behind me much sooner than I thought I'd be able to - by about three months after the op I wasn't dwelling on it anymore and living in fear of recurrence - I just told myself that everyone has a risk of cancer of some sort and no-one knows what illness might hit them when, so I'd just put it behind me and take life as it comes, and I've done that.  But what does concern me is women using Vagifem NOT knowing about those risks, so they aren't making informed decisions, because unless they see Vagifem's own site about prescribers information, it's watered down, what they're told.  I KNOW it works for some people though, and I do understand some people using it, especially if they've seriously trialled other products and they haven't worked, but Vagifem has.  I SO feel for women who's lives are so badly affecte with vaginal atrophy and other menopause symptoms, but the main thing is to make sure the cure doesn't cause worse than the condition, especially unnecessarily, if there are safer alternatives that haven't been tried first.  That's the crux of my opinion:-)

It's a bit like treatment for osteoporosis.  My GP (different one) put me on alendronic acid because he decided I'd got a spine problem that was linked to low bone density, before my bone density had even been checked and results back.  I believed what he told me, started taking the tablets which can cause horrendous side effects because I was told there was a risk of paralysis if I didn't, but they made me so giddy I was falling over, so had to stop taking them and then the results came back and my bone density didn't put me in the high enough risk factor to warrant them!  I now take supplements that can give good results for a lower bone density to improve it as do many who have been prescribed alendronic acid but don't want to take it because of risks, but have much lower bone density than mine.  But we are so influenced by our GP's because we're given a scenario of 'take this or if you don't you're at risk of this.....' but never the possible side effects of what they're giving us (at least the side effects have never been discussed with me).  I had the same with statins years back and my health got SO bad - I didn't know what was going on, until a thyroid consultant saw I was taking statins and took me straight off them.  I recovered for the most part.  Never quite got the muscle tone back though.  SO - while we can research, I think we do tend to go along with what GP's tell us, and that can be biased, but when they tell us the dangers of not taking their advice (maybe rightly or wrongly!) it's tricky!   As you said, even studies can be biased, and anyone can write anything on the internet too, so all in all, you pay your money and you take your chance, so to speak.

That 's alot of stuff going on there your being very proactive in your treatment which is good. Im glad you're in a good place where you can take each day as it comes inow. We never really know what our future health holds no matter how careful we are so we need to make the most of each day even though that's hard sometimes.

With regards the ailment sometimes being better than the sideffects from treatment. I remember a male Dr saying that I was lucky going into full blown menopause after my ovaries were removed as some women have it dragged out for years. I don't feel very lucky with full blown VA that might of taken years to develop! If I could have my ovaries back I definitely would even with the risk as im still at risk now with the treatment! Catch 22 really

I was actually very lucky and never had any symptoms with menopause.  No night sweats or anything.  However, about a month after I came off Vagifem I had horrendous night sweats.  I truly had no idea what some women went through before then!  I can still remember the constant changing of wicking nightdresses, and trying laying on towels etc.  It was absolutely horrible.  I had no idea how long it might last for either.  This was before the hysterectomy that it started, so nothing to do with that.  Thankfully it eased off around three months after the hysterectomy, so it had gone on for roughly 5 months as far as I can remember.  Boy was I glad to see the back of that!

I hope youve quit that doctor. She is very incompetant,quite frankly i get so mad reading about your treatment from her,I think I would have tryed malpractice or something.

Wonder why your doctor ever put you on vagifem with such low issues with the vaginal atrophy. Sometimes i think its better to just stay away from doctors,im very disallusioned with most and often think Id be better off without going. I too had trouble with statin med,caused me awful issues. I went off of them. To bad our healthcare systems arent better,i dont have much faith at all in our system in the US.

At least that was something you don't have to endure anymore.

I don't think I was quite ready for the other symptoms associated with the condition. It probably would of gotten this bad by the time I was older anyway.

So agree with you. Took myself off statins after leg cramps and dis colored urine. I think docs have no answer for VA except HRT. If it were make issue Mona Lisa touch would be covered by insurance

I feel one of the lucky ones really!  I so wish we could find answers for other women on here.  Has anyone tried hyalaronic acid pessaries yet, and if so how did they get on?   That seems to be the most likely help other than HRT, according to studies.

Is that prescription. Have not heard of it is US.

Sorry Lee - this one didn't come through on email so only just seen it.  I THINK the doctor was ingrained on the thinking that women with pessaries need vagifem.  They often seem to go hand in hand.  Then I think the discharge I got made her think I needed more, when discharge is one of the side effects of vagifem, or can be.  I did later get the opinion of a Professor who was an expert in all that and he said my treatment was very sub standard.  I'm so sorry you had the problems with statins too!  I gained so much weight and struggled to move around and had to lean on my husband to walk because my muscles were so weak.  I was in a real state, but no-one had any idea what the cause was until I saw the thyroid consultant.  The stupid thing was, I was put on the statins because they said I had angina which turned out to be spasm of the esophagus and not angina at all!  It is difficult, I agree! 

Here it can be got under the name of Balance Active Menopause Plus, but I don't think they go as far as the States at the moment.  BUT, I'd think if you google hyalaronic acid  pessaries or gel for vaginal atrophy you might find something else under a different name.  There have now been lots of studies showing that it doesn't just help symptoms but actually helps the condition improve.  I'm just thinking - I've got a feeling someone said the gel was going to be available over there, but I'm not positive.  It might be worth looking it up - it's the Balance Active Menopause Plus gel, on amazon maybe.

I think it is on amozon.

I can't see the Menopause Plus on there, but only the BV version.  I don't think that contains hyalaronic acid, but I haven't checked.

There's an ncbi study 'Is vaginal hyaluronic acid as effective as vaginal estriol for vaginal dryness relief?' that mentions a product called Hyalofemme, which I think you might be able to get there:  In a multicenter, randomized, controlled, open-label, parallel- group trial hyaluronic acid vaginal gel (Hyalofemme) was compared to estriol vaginal cream (Ovestin) in women with vaginal dryness due to various causes.  If you copy and paste the text from the colon, it will probably take you straight to it.  But there really have been so many studies done using hyalaronic acid now and I've not yet seen one where it didn't give it a very encouraging report.

I think you can order it from the balance active site

Ah right.  I just noticed Hyalofemme is available here too, so might be an alternative to Balance Active Menopause Plus.  I don't know how it compares pricewise.  But all the studies I looked at just now were saying it gave pretty close results to oestrogen creams.

3 times a week has been ok, fine, good for me for 26 years and that is the 25 mcg dose.  And heaven forbid, the oestriol cream and 100mg patches (2 per week) plus a transdermal gel when the patches don't work long enough!

It is not demeaning for women who may have got breast cancer because of hrt, because that is what researchers do.  I would say their tests are criminal because women had entered into these not knowing all the facts.

I would not have said it is fine to ignore the list of of possible side effects but to find another word, one must be pragmatic about them, or we would not be taking any medication.  Nor would I say that there is no risk with hormones.  I always say you must do your homework and seek out the best one, and that is not oral oestrogen-progestogen combinations, which are often prescribed to women in these forums.  They are reportably the most problematic.

No, I don't think you are incredibly stupid but you did not explain that you questioned the dr about continuing on 6 per week.  If my dr insisted on such a dose even after I questioned her on it, I would seek out another opinion.  After all, the instructions were clear.  That I use it 3 times a week is a personal need, and that is between me and my dr and we are both in accordance.  And that is allowed by Novo Nordisk too.

You say you are warning women about Vagifem, and I am telling the other side of the story, same as other women in this forum who have relatives who used vagifem or other forms of oestrogen for many years.

I have not received the link you say you sent to me to the websites you have read but I have found the one for Novo Nordisk Aust and NZ.  The warnings you refer to were for unopposed systemic oestrogen-only and oral combination o/p, not vagifem.  It stated that the systemic uptake for vagifem was low and not accumulative.

They reported an interesting stat that the risk for endometrial cancer was 5 in 1000 for those women who did not use hrt at all.  And 'for women aged between 50 and 65 who still have a womb and who take oestrogen-only hrt, between 10 and 60 in 1000 will be diagnosed with endometrial cancer (i.e. between 5 and 55 extra cases) ....  They were not talking about vagifem.  Similar for breast cancer.  Systemic oestrogen only, means unopposed oestrogen, i.e. without taking progestogen as well (but not combined as stated above).  That means you can have transdermal oestrogen therapy with progestogen in a separate form.

Some of the risks regarding using oestrogen were stated as uncertain, i.e. not proven.  I could not find the use of the word 'tablet' at all, reference was to 'oral' which are not the pessaries.  I could not see them using the word tablet as it appears that a warning has to be given against taking Vagifem orally.

There was no limit on the time of use of Vagifem - just a need to have a physical (including gyny) 12 months after start of use.

Just last year, I had the experience of my gp doubling my progestogen dose without my knowledge.  My pharmacist picked it up, checked with me, then phoned my gp to double check.  My gp insisted that that was what she wanted me to have.

I pondered and agonised over why on earth she would do that.  There was no good reason and unnecessary.  She also left for 1 month's leave that day.  As I am in control of what I put in my mouth/body, I kept to my normal dose.

By luck, a couple of months later, I had an appointment with my endocrinologist (I am being treated for a microadenoma on my pituitary gland the past 7.5 yrs), who also knows and sanctions my hrt levels, and he told me it was good that I had made that decision regarding the progestogen.  It turns out my gp had accidently clicked on the wrong strength script, and she has done it again before going on leave this year.  I will not be using it at that strength.

 

Your dr does sound like a right turkey, so it is good that you are seeing another one.  Unfortunately, you have found out the hard way, like most of us, that drs are not gods, and can and should be questioned, and if all is not in accordance, go to another one.

I have to be pragmatic about cancer too.  I am surrounded by people/relatives who have had cancer, some survived and some died, and none of them related to hrt.  I, too, have had two doses of cancer, one level 2, and the other deadly but both saved by the complete removal of the tumours (and neither related to hrt).  If we are going to get it, we will get it.  We just have to keep ourselves healthy in order to survive it.

And these cancers were around long before the advent of hrt.  It seems the Neanderthals are responsible for passing on the cancer gene, among many others!

 

OK - you can't find the link I sent.  Here is part of that page and this is put in large bold print on Vagifems Prescribers information: DESCRIPTION

HIGHLIGHTS OF PRESCRIBING INFORMATION

These highlights do not include all the information

needed to use Vagifem

®

safely and effectively. See full

prescribing information for Vagifem

®

.

®

(estradiol vaginal tablets)

Initial U.S. Approval: 1999

WARNING: ENDOMETRIAL CANCER,

CARDIOVASCULAR DISORDERS, BREAST CANCER

and Vagifem

 

PROBABLE DEMENTIA

See full prescribing information for complete boxed

warning.

Estrogen-Alone Therapy

•

There is an increased risk of endometrial cancer

in a woman with a uterus who uses unopposed

estrogens (5.3)

•

Estrogen-alone therapy should not be used for the

prevention of cardiovascular disease or dementia

(5.2, 5.4)

•

The W

omen’s Health Initiative (WHI) estrogen-

alone substudy reported increased risks of stroke

and deep vein thrombosis (DVT) (5.2)

•

The WHI Memor

y Study (WHIMS) estrogen-alone

ancillary study of WHI reported an increased risk of

probable dementia in postmenopausal women 65

years of age and older (5.4)

It also says - 'use of oestrogen alone or in combination with progestin should be  with the lowest effective dose and for the shortest duration .... 'whereas many go on to use this for the rest of their lives.

The INFORMATION ON THE VAGIFEM SHEET  also says QUOTE 'Vagifem is a small round white coated TABLET'.  All this is on the link I sent and I'll send it to you privately so  you can't miss it.

Again, I reiterate - I DO appreciate that some women will have tried other things and found that they don't work and their quality of life is badly affected BUT there are GOOD alternatives that do not have the risk of Vagifem, such as products with hyalaronic acid in, where studies have now shown that they can get an almost similar result to oestrogen pessaries.  So why on earth wouldn't anyone want to try those first!  Vagifem doesn't work for everyone - I can't remember the exact percentage but I was looking at a study yesterday and at a guess it was around half of women, and hyalaronic acid was a tad below that.  It is obviously your choice if you want to use it, just as it is any women's but at the very least they should be aware that there are risks and it may well be that it's unnecessary taking these risks if there is a good alternative, which the studies show hyalaronic acid products to be, so at least they have a choice if they know about these.  I will send you the link privately, so you can see for yourself about the description being called A TABLET and all the other bits that I've tried to copy and past with some difficulty.  This is all taking too long, and to be honest life is too short to keep repeating myself to you.  You must do what you think is good for you, just as we all make our own decisions, that should be as informed as possible, so I'm actually coming off this discussion now.  If anyone does want the link to the whole vagifem page sent privately, please let me know.

I have received your private email with the link and have read it - and yes, I agree it does refer to the pessary as a tablet in that documentation.  No wonder they have to put in a warning not to take it orally.  Referring to it as a tablet does not occur in the Austn/NZ documentation.

After reading a while, I kept thinking they are not talking about Vagifem.  They are referring to oestrogen in general, and the outcomes of the  WHI (Women's Health Initiative) Study.  So I searched and read the outcomes of the WHI.

Women without a uterus were assigned Premarin only (too bad if they had endometriosis).  Women with a uterus were assigned Premarin and a progestin (to reduce the risk of endometrial cancer).  Some were given placebos.  Now the problem is with Premarin - it has always been problematic and I don't doubt it caused all the problems that caused the study to be abandoned.

The women involved also had to be post menopausal and have no menopausal symptoms.  Some up to 80 years old.  Of course there are going to be problems.  This study has been done before with bad outcomes.  Funnily enough, they found that the younger women benefited more from the hrt than the older women.  Why do they put women's health at risk with such stupid studies?

Why on earth do they not do a study of a bio-identical oestrogen (oestradiol) that is personally suited to the women as it should be in real life?

Vagifem is not Premarin, it is oestradiol.  The dose is so small it does not need a progestin to be taken with it.  The small study (small number of women involved) revealed localised problems for some.  If you already have poor health to begin with, then abrasion, fungal etc problems are still going to be an issue.

It does state that if you have problems with obesity, thyroid, or precancerous conditions, you are at more risk of endometriol cancer than others.  You already had a prolapse problem with the resin being left on the product that was inserted causing chronic abrasion.  You also had a bone thinning problem which makes me think that you have been post menopausal for a long time.  Your health does not appear to be good at all.  If your problem was caused by Vagifem it would come under the very rare event and is not a common result.

If anyone reads your link, they should also google the WHI Study.  I have spent a lot of time trying to interpret it as you see it and failed.  Yes, please don't keep repeating yourself to me and others on this forum about your ideas about Vagifem because your arguments are flawed by misreading, misunderstanding, and ommitted information.

 

Sheryl I am finding you are constantly jumping to conclusions about me, my health and aspects of Vagifem that, in short are based on your ideas rather than facts.  I'm now finding you very rude and have no intention of even looking at this thread at all any more.  Yes, let people google these studies and come to their own conclusions.  What you've said about being more at risk of endometrial cancer if you have thyroid problems is UTTER RUBBISH!  It does not say that at all, and while it does say it can affect thyroid, there is and never has been any suggestion that it is more likely to cause cancer if you have thyroid problems.  You're clutching at straws and coming up with such a load of rubbish - this is not worth my time.  I suspect people will realise the rubbish you are saying.  I don't need to bother to put it all right.

Your comment about Vagifem needing to warn not to take 'the tablet' orally - any medication in that form can be referred to as 'a tablet' - it's like telling you not to swallow a tablet computer!  And since they tell you how to insert it, on a long stick, it's hardly likely to be put in the mouth.  It would only be someone stupid thinking because it's HRT then it has to be by mouth.  Do tell me - why would Vagifem not be talking about Vagifem on their own leaflet.  No, on second thoughts, don't bother.

To put it in a nutshell - if I have a choice of playing in a safe field with the same benefits, why would I want to go and play in the traffic.

You are right regarding thyroid.  I was trying to finish in a hurry and did not refer back to the website to quote properly.  In fact, it says

'There is some evidence that obesity and possibly hypertension or diabetes mellitus are predisposing factors to endometrial carcinoma. In view of this, special care should be taken in the presence of these conditions and also if a family history of endometrial carcinoma is present. Endometrial hyperplasia (atypical or adenomatous) often precedes endometrial cancer.'

And I intended to correct that as soon as I could get back to my computer, which I now have.

I don't think I have jumped to conclusions about you, as I have refered to only what you have said of yourself.

Tablets - pessaries: of no real consequence in this discussion. On an instruction sheet, it says 'Do not swallow Vagifem Low.  This modified release pessary is for vaginal use only'.  So obviously, they think there are people stupid enough to do so.  Or, it is because they have to cover all bases.  Maybe it is not on the one you have read, but I have read multiple copies, and read widely.

To the ladies who are interested, when you read links regarding the WHI, you will find that some leading professors of gyneacology have condemned the study, saying it has set back the health of women for decades.  Now drs and women will be afraid to use even good hrt to their own detriment.

I suppose you are victims of this study in that you are now looking for solutions to problems you now have as a result.  For some reason, anything about oestrogen are compelled to refer to this study.  It should be exposed in the media for the flawed study it was.  It was in Australia - I had read it before but had forgotten it but have long known about Premarin.  Premarin has been known for many decades to be the worst oestrogen supplement by leading menopause specialists.

And I know from other blogs in this forum that there has been huge difficulty in finding something that works, particularly when you are afraid of all things hrt.

By all means, read the WHI study outcomes, as it is important to know to avoid Premarin, and also not to use hrt when it is too late.  Having said that, I know there is a person who participates in these blogs who, so far, is happy with Premarin.

So ladies, I am sorry your blog regarding solutions to VA has been shanghaied by a disagreement about hrt, but it is important to know the real truth about hrt and not those made by misleading statements without doing due diligence.

Good luck to all.

 

We are all doing our best to deal with an issue that is debilitating. We share our experiences and research our options. Your posting is overkill. Some people develop cancer from HRT some don't. We all make informed decisions HRT can be for you but not for me. Lighten up

And I feel for the women that are trying to find a solution to this problem.  But claims that put all hrt into one bucket with all the same risks is not furthering anyone's cause.  Your issues will continue if you can't reach out from that belief.  Some hrt may increase the risk of cancer, but others don't.  I am not forcing hrt down other people's throat on this, and I don't think others should make misleading statements to scare people off it.

You might find some answers in The Wisdom of Menopause available in most libraries - if not, they will get it in for you.  I am not sure what as I did not focus on that chapter as it was not relevant to me when I read it.  But I know the author touches on just about every aspect of menopause.