I'VE BEEN ON VENLAFAXINE FOR 17 DAYS AND FEEL WORSE

Hi jpm, sorry to hear that ven hasn't worked for you. I'm the other way round to you. I was on ven originally for a few years with a few blips but at the start of this bout of depression I was started on mirtazapine with a low dose of ven. Mirt is meant to help with sleep and appetite.  It helps me sleep but not with appetite.  Olanzapine was added for the same but I still haven't got my appetite back. I feel that mirt is making me worse so my psychatrist said taper down on mirt and put ven up, also still taking olanzipine although have cut that down. Nothing is happening yet but I hope it does soon. Its awful living with this illness isn't it. Can't wait to feel 'me' again.  Are you seeing a psychatrist or just your gp? Everyone is different and what ad works for one doesn't work for another.  It would be interesting to hear your story. Keep in touch

Thanks for your reply, Kat. Mine is a long boring  story. No I am only seeing my GP.not a Psychiatrist as well.  Personally, i wouldn't wish to take more than one drug because of possible interractions.  I was on both Amytriptyline ( for sleep and pain control). and ven but the effects of both were appalling. Got an immediate appointment with another GP at the same practice who cut my Ven down and said I was on the wrong AD and would have a word with the dr who prescribed them.   When i saw her she

said I had to come off them slowly. That was nearly a month ago. I am seeing her on Thursday.( if i can get there).  I have lost a stone in weight and am now so exhausted I can't do anything in the house.I have to force myself to go to the shops. I am having to force myself to eat, potter a little bit, then fall asleep.Just a few weeks ago, for ages, I couldn't sleep. Now i am on the very last crumb of Ven I can't stop sleeping. It isn't 'real' sleep.more like internittent sleep with weird dreams. Wake up then i'm off again within a minute. I just have to keep telling myself there will be light at the end of the tunnel maybe tomorrow.

I do wonder though whether these professionals know what they are doing and if they really care ( Hypocritical oath!!!!!).

I did want to ask my Gp for mirt because of the common side effects of appetite gain and sleep and also for what I have read in forums that Mirt is effective very quickly and has very few nasty less common side effects.Now I am not so sure. Ideally, it would be nice not to need these AD's but these drug companies have to make their money somehow!

I agree with your feeling of wanting to be yourself again. Wouldn't it be nice? Take care and God bless.

 

Thanks for your reply. I think my meds aren't doing me any good at all. That's why I'm trying to cut down on one of them. I have no motivation to do anything but I do try. I have also lost a stone in weight. Mirt didnt help at all with appetite that's why I don't think the tablets are working together.  Are you taking the medication for depression or anxiety. I've got both at the moment! I would ask your gp for a referral to see a psychatrist as they're the professionals in this field.  Although I've seen two (1 private 1 nhs) and they both prescribed different tablets! Just seeing the nhs one now. Keep in touch and let me know how your getting on. 

Hi Kat, John here.    Just woken up. Have put some dinner in oven hoping to be able to eat it!!           Ven can take weeks to have any effect but first you have to go through the side effects.  Not everyone has them but this venlafaxine is known as the evil pill and i honestly wonder why it hasnt been taken off the market.   Over the last few months I have looked into many,many user reviews of different drugs and this is the one which is the most evil. I know exactly what you mean by by lethargy and lack of motivation. I have had that since April. I have a large garden which was my delight. Now I can only look at it and think it is going to wrack and ruin and i can't do anything about it. I have tried but can't do much.   So I know exactly what you are going through.

I am on these for depression , which is an illness. Anxiety is a symptom. Maybe the two go together in some people but I don't get anxious now as  I think that makes the depression worse. I have given up  anxiety because if I can't do anything about something I am not going to worry about it. The world won't come to an end  because of it and being anxious won't help me. At this moment in time, against my wishes, the lady next door is trimming my hedge. I just haven't got the energy to help which is unlike me. It is frustrating but in the past I have done loads for her so I am not going to worry about it.

 I think a referral to see a shrink would probably take longer than it will for me to get well.

Are you working or are you on sick leave, Kat. What triggered your illness if I may be so bold as to ask such a personal question?

Most times with people, so I've read, it can be one thing after another or the subconscious mind being overloaded. I think they call it 'the fly on the wall syndrome'

With me, it was things that I had buried deep then something happened which i couldn't control and i crashed!!!

God bless, John

 

Hi john, it's a shame that you can't do your garden at the moment. There are plenty of things in the house I can't face doing and I keep telling myself I'll do them when I'm better. I've suffered with depression for years and my depression just appears for no reason. So I have clinical depression. Just an imbalance of chemicals in the brain.  It also runs in my family.  I've taken ven for a few years now. I still get bouts of depression whilst on it but I've always come out of a bout just as sudden as when it arrived. This bout though is going on too long, like you, since april. Mirtazapine is certainly not helping me that's why I'm cutting down. 

It does take time for a referral to a psychiatrist but it is worth seeing one. 

I'm lucky in that I don't work. I'm a volunteer for a charity but have been unable to do that since april. 

Are you working? 

Hi Kat,

 No I am not working now.    I have given up on house work. The house isn't going to fall down while I am unable. I didn't realise that depression could be genetic. That is really sad. Do you ever have times when you feel yourself again. How long do they last?  Isn't it odd that there are times when you are well ( meaning the seratonin in your brain is OK) then suddenly it is not.. Can you account for the changes from being well to being ill? I am sorry to say that I don't trust Psychiatrists/Psychologists. I have met a couple personally ( not professionally ) in my life and all they do is ask questions like an interrogation, if that makes sense. In fact , as i remember I thought that they themselves needed to see be seen to.

Wasn't there a saying that if  a Psychiatrist was at a party he wouldn't take part but just watch everyone else having a good time?

God bless. John

I can feel well for quite a long time between bouts. Sometimes it can be event related but then other times it just comes out of the blue. I'm going through the menopause so my doctor seems to think it could be that. Also my folic acid is low and that can affect mood. I'm glad I see a psychatrist as they know more about medication/therapies.  I've tried cbt but it didn't do much for me, but I was well then. 

Hi Kat,

What is cbt?   I suppose the menopause ( shouldn't that be the 'womenopause'). can't be any fun with all the hormonal changes going on.

I have just been looking up withdrawal symptoms and how long they last for venlafaxine and was shocked. It would seem that I have been coming off it too quickly!!!  Discontinuation syptoms can be very severe! Now i fully realise why it is such an evil drug. What other people have been saying about withdrawing is very scary. Even research has shown that coming off too quickly can cause heart failure , brain damage and even death. I don't know what to do now. Do I go back onto a small dose or just hope that these symptoms will disappear?

Isn't life wonderful!!

God bless , john

Cbt is cognitive behavioural therapy. What dose of ven were you on? Perhaps you have come off too quickly.  I'm surprised that your doctor just let you get on with it. That's why sometimes it's best to see a professional in mental health who would give you more information on the drugs. I have read that mirtazapine can give you a high at first but then you can come crashing down. But everyone is different. Pat and I are trying to get out of our depression with venlafaxine and I just hope it starts to work soon. I'd love to see some light at the end of this tunnel! 

How are you doing today? I think we can read too much on the internet.  I've read good and bad things about venlafaxine and mirtazapine.  You never know what to think! 

Yes, you are right Kat. I tried to come off it too quickly. Took a small amount ( about 15Mg) las night and feel much better today. Had a great night's sleep.   Trouble was that my Gp didn't want to see me for a month (awaiting MRI scan results). Will see her on Thursday and then we will plan what action to take. I agree that sometimes we don't know what to believe when reading all these things. But yesterday evening I found a research item from some university in the USA.  It was research on the effect of Withdrawal of Ven on many thousands of people. The report was very comprehensive and very damning of Ven.

 I do hope you and Pat have good results soon. God bless, John

Hi John, i'm glad your feeling better today. Have you been able to get in your garden? Have you got a partner who is supportive? My husband is my rock and very understanding.  He just wants me to be well again. 

Hi Kat, Thank God you have a rock to lean on. Believe me he is a blessing. No, I do not anyone here.

No I haven't been in the garden yet. too much to do there, Not ready yet..

Managed to do some shopping which i just couldn't have done during the past few days. Last night slept like a baby and today feeling better with a bit of dizziness. Still fancy Mirt though. According to a Patient survey it is 42% more effective for depressive illness than any other drug. What is more it appears to be effective quicker than any other AD. It has very few side effects ( I can cope with them especially the appetite increase, which I need!!!).    I didn't used to sleep much,( frustrating) until I tried a tiny bit of Melatonin.   ( the less the better). However, Mirt has an effect which can help with that disorder!  Which would mean not needing the Melatonin. It would be just great if i could convince my GP that Mirt MAY be more beneficial for me and it was! God bless, john

Mirt is meant to help with sleep and appetite.  It does help with my sleep but not with appetite. I am eating but not got an actual appetite.  I know when I'm getting better when that comes back. Sorry to hear your on your own to cope with this awful illness. Have you got family/friends that can help? My poor husband, he has to put up with me being miserable all the time. One thing I can't do is cry.  No tears whatsoever.  I wish I could have a good sob sometimes. 

I'm sure your gp will listen to what you have to say about mirt. But you never know, you might feel so well by then that you might not have to take anything! Wouldn't that be good. 

Hi Kat, I wonder if these drugs can, in some people, act like anti-biotics. i.e they kill all the bacteria in the intestines.  I don't know, but certainly one of the side -effects of Ven is loss of appetite.

yes I have bro and 2 sisters but they , like my parents, were never particularly interested in me. That is is , I think the bottom line cause of my depressive illness.   But my attitude is 'it is their loss'.

Yes, I have friends but I noticed them slowly disaapearing into the background as depression took it's hold. Not their fault. They saw a different me and didn't know how to cope with it.

As a matter of interest, have you tried really letting loose on a pillow and kicking the living daylights out of it. get angry and use words you wouldn't normally use and then let the crying start. We are the only animals, that i know of, who can cry their hearts out and let the emotional volcano erupt.

God bless you, john

Interesting to hear about ven causing loss of appetite but I was on mirt at the beginning with a very small amount of ven and also olanzapine which is meant to give you an appetite, but nothing seems to be working.  Sorry to hear that your family aren't close and friends aren't being that understanding but you seem to have a good attitude. I've tried everything to try and cry apart from the pillow thing! 

Hi Kat, Try the pillow thing and see if it works for you and i will tell you why I mentioned it tomorrow.

Well now i know who my friends are.  In the past they were always wanting me to do things for them. I was very practical and a qualified electronics and electrical teacher at Uni. Now i can say 'no'  to them without guilt!!!

God bless , John

I will have to try the pillow thing tomorrow when my husband is out. Otherwise he'll think I really have lost the plot! It's good to know who your friends are. I have made quite a good friend a few weeks back from this forum. We message each other all the time. She's suffering with depression so we understood each other straight away.

Please do and remember that the pillow doesn't feel pain and they are cheap enough if you do knock the stuffing out of it! But I have to add that this is not the place to tell you why i mentioned it as it it is too personal to include in this forum AND it is a long story which happened to a friend many years ago. Sorry about that. i am glad that you have found a friend in Patricia. It is good to share each others pain. They say that if you break your leg the only person who can understand what that is like is someone who has had a broken leg.

God bless, john

Hi John. It's taken me an age to get on here this morning. How are you feeling today? I will try the pillow thing today. Can't see it working though. I've tried everything to cry even watching a sad film! Usually talking about my children brings a tear to my eye but nothing! 

Hi john, I've tried the pillow thing and nothing! I didn't think it would work. How are you doing today? 

Hi Kat, Sorry it didn't work.  It did for a couple of 'friends' way back in the past. It got rid of subconscious anger which was to blame for their conditions However, you tried. Can't do more than that.

Yes, there has been a blip in this forums server causing the error notice.

This morning felt quite bright and felt like doing something in the garden then took just a nibble of ven and within minutes a bit of dizziness and blurred vision!!   The strange thing is that I have no back pains which have blighted me for ages.   Even my physio said that they were coming from my mind (via Ven). Of course I didn't believe him but he has said many times that all my muscles were very tight causing tension in them causing pain in the joints. That is why I had an MRI scan on the full length of my back. I should get the results on Thursday when i go to the Doc. Now i feel a twit if there is nothing to show!!!!

God bless, john

 

Hi john, glad you felt well enough for some gardening. Not glad that you had a reaction from taking ven. It will be interesting to see if anything shows up on the mri scan, but no way should you feel a twit if there's nothing wrong. That's a good thing. I've only ever suffered with neck and shoulder pain but that is due to a nearly fused vertebrae in my neck. 

How are you doing today John. Hope you can get in your garden today. Whereabouts do you live? 

Hi Kat. Today feeling dozy and fatigued.Not like me at all. But on the last few little lumps of Ven. Still not eating like i used to. So hoping that tomorrow Doc will start me on Mirt. Common side effects are mean't to be Nausea ( ginger tea helps with that)  appetite and somnalence.   So hope i get them and none other. I have also read in a lot of reports that Mirt is a quick acting in benefits..  Also, in a Psychiatrist forum research that Mirt's effectiveness  is 42% higher on average than any other AD.   Here's hoping!!   I live in Newcastle /Tyne. And you?

God love you and Pat.

 

Just finished a really ionteresting book by a very understang and knowledgeable author. A Psychiatrist Dr. Tim Cantopher. The book is called "Depressive Illness The Curse of the strong"  Highly recommended. Very easy to read. I think it was about £5 on Amazon.

Hi John, i'm not having a great day which is very frustrating to say the least!  Could you do without any anti depressants? You sound like your getting on ok. I've been looking at the mirt site and there is good and bad about it as there is about ven. I'm in Essex. 

I've read that book. He is very understanding isn't he. Sometimes I can sit and read a book but other times I can't relax enough to read. 

Hi Kat , it is extremely frustrating not feeling like doing anything yet your mind says you should be doing something. That is the drug talking, maybe.

 Do what your body feels.

I did without any last Wednesday. The weekend was hell. So I came back on on Sunday evening . Just a quarter of  37.5Mg and since then that dose twice a day.

I want to be ready to take onboard a different med when I see the doc tomorrow.    I don't like all these contra-indications when on more than Med.

Do you by any chance live in Guildford?

God bless , john

Your doing really well to come off first. I've only ever been on 1 AD at a time but this time I'm on 2 AD's with olanzapine thrown in! As I said before, do you really need to be on anything. You seem ok. 

I don't live in guildford. 

I know that I am not the real me, yet. I just cannot be bothered to do anything physical. This time last year I was energetic and rebuilt my back porch, and built a large shed in the back garden. Planted loads of shrubs which are now flowering. Went out. and mended electrical things for 'friends' etc. etc. I couldn't sit still for a minute. Now i am apathetic, lethargic, aware that there is something in my head that shouldn't be there!!!   ( maybe I've grown a brain which is fighting to get out!!). Yes, I even had a good sense of humour. Where did it go?

 Kat, I am pleased that you don't live in Guildford as I used to know a Katharine who lived there. Not a nice person at all! But that is another story.

I am concerned that you are taking 3 drugs. Are they not interacting with each other?

God bless, john

Depression robs you of the life beforehand. I normally am a very sociable person always on the go. But now I don't have the motivation for anything or to see anyone. 

I do worry about all my tablets interacting. I've never felt so bad but I'm cutting down now on mirt and upping ven and I've also cut down the olanzapine so hopefully something will work soon. 

Hi John, Good luck at the doctors today. I hope they agree with you regarding mirtazapine.  And that your scan results are clear. 

Thanks Kat, Will keep you informed. God Bless , John.

Hi Kat. been to Docs. Scan results are not good. Degeneration in the whole of the spine!!   The first thing she said to me was " You were right"   Both the Physio and the Doc said it was depression. I felt it was not.  So put me onto Ven.  Now I have to totally come off it for a fortnight before i can get Mirt which she approved but reluctantly. So now i have to come off Ven within the next week so she can give me mirt in 3 weeks time.

Just great!!! Hell has no vengeance like coming off Ven!!!!!

So here's to the black hole again!

God bless, john

   

 

Oh john, i'm sorry to hear about your scan results. Why did you go onto anti depressants in the first place? I wonder why your doctor has said 3 weeks. That's a long time to wait isn't it. I take it your not very happy with waiting that long.

Long story. basically I had a lot of back pain. Went to a private physio who said I need arched insoles. I didn't. But i thought he would know better. So I wore them. After 3 days I was in terrible pain. Got see him the same day and then I collapsed with the pain. He immediately said this is major depression. Rang my GP to get am immediate appointment then she put me on Ven. Needless to say he didn't want to hear me blame the insoles ( perhaps he was scared of being sued!!) I did tell him I didn't have flat feet.

But he refused to even listen to that comment.   What really makes me sick is that these 'professional ' people don't LISTEN to patients.

Are well, think positive, john.  I was hoping for the beneficial side effects of mirt.  Appetite gain, sleeping better and overall the side effects of mirt are few and they act quicker.

God bless John

You showed no other symptoms of depression? But you've said before that you've got no motivation for anything.  Was you ok before all this? Sorry for all the questions but I find it hard to believe the reasoning for putting you on anti depressants.  I really think you could  finish the ven then carry on without taking anything.

Hi Kat , I was OK before all this. It was the physio that said" Major depression!" and then gave me a lecture on how the Hypothalamus and Adrenaline kick in under extreme pain. Then he rang my GP talked to her about major depression in my case and I saw her the same day. When i saw her I just broke down.And that was that!

That's terrible treatment. I'm surprised you started taking the tablets if you felt you weren't depressed. Try and finish the ven and then see how you feel without anything.  You might just feel like your old self again without taking the mirt.

Hi John. Hope you are starting to feel more motivated. It still amazes me that ven made you even more depressed when you weren't even depressed in the first place!

Hi Kat, As you know the first few weeks on Ven can be awful. The effects on me never stopped, changed and  varied so much from day to day as Patricia is finding out.  Well today i said "stuff this, i am going in the garden to do something". So i have been in the garden all day tidying, weeding etc. Now i am knackered! So hopefully i will get some sleep tonight. My loss of appetite may not be due to Ven after all. It could be a nerve in the back being pinched which I have told the Physio if I touch it I can bring on  nausea, and hunger.  We shall see what he says. But interestingly enough the doc was reluctant to give me a copy of the report ( in point of fact she is obliged to!) but she started typing on her computer then printed it out. But she forgot to erase the  word 'CONCLUSION'

There was no conclusion but the word was there with a big space underneath it.. I believe she had deleted the conclusion of the Consultant so that I couldn't ask for a referral.    Now do you see that i just don't trust these 'professionals'.  It would cost money to the NHS and the GP's budget if i had an operation to release the nerve. Gosh, i am getting cynical in my old age!!!!

God bless, john

You have been busy! You definitely need a referral for your back. Ask for one when you next go back. Hope you slept well after your busy day. 

Hi John.   Have you been to the hospital?  I am a volunteer secretary at our local hospital and all patients get a copy of any letters sent from the consultant to the GP and any letters sent to patient a copy is sent to GP.  I don't know if ths is the procedure in all hospital.

Pat

Hi Pat, I haven't yet seen a consultant. The MRI was done at my request through my GP. Do I have the right to see one via my GP? Or can i get a copy of the letter sent to my GP from the Xray dept at the hospital?

God bless, John

Hi Kat, Yes i did sleep l;ike a baby for 12hours!! Mind that could be due to the  small amount of melatonin which I tried. It came yesterday.And they are 1Mg tablets but according to other peoples reviews the less of this is better for sleep so I took a 1/4 of this and woo-hoo. Head hardly hit the pillow.But you only taske it 30 minutes before bed.    But he way it is imperative that you don't touch alchol when on drugs. Alcohol is a depressive and it goes through the liver BEFORE the drugs so it can actually stop the drugs from metabolizing ( if that is the right word?) Either way it works against the AD's.

So if you are drinking in the evening it would be like missing a dose of the AD.

I certainly  hope that I can get a referral. But i would like to see the document that was sent from the Radiogrphers.

God bless, john

 

Hi John.  I only know that any letters sent to GPs or patients are automatically sent a copy at our hospital.  I am sure you will be able  to get a copy from the hospital.  Everyone is allowed access to their medical reccords.  I was very interest to read your writeup on alcohol.

Hi Pat, Tried to ring hospital Xray dep't. CLOSED for the weekend!!!!!

From what you are saying I should have received a copy of the results FROM the hospital. Odd  I didn't get one. And my GP was reluctant to give me a copy but said if it was for my Physio then OK but then she was typing hurriedly on her laptop and and if it was just fo printing out it would have been just a couple of taps on the keys not 2 minutes of it. There is something not right there!  On Monday I will ring the Xray dept and find out what is going on.

If you look at any AD or even antibiotic user guide it states 'AVOID ALCOHOL That means for your owen sake dfo not drink it.  But you can google search that.

God bless , john.

Hi  John

Whenever any procedure takes place in our hospital a letter is sent to the GP and a copy to the patient.  That's what happens in Hertfordshire but it may different where you live.I'm originally from Liverpool and my sister-in-law us a med sec up there.  She isn't in at the moment but I will ask her if it's the same there.  But I understood that patients are allowed access to anything that has been done at the hospital.

I was on Venlafaxine for 10 years and used to have wine several times a week either with dinner or if we went out.  I didn't have any bother then but I thought I had better cut it out this time as the Ven. isn't working.

Regards.

Pat

How have you been feeling john?

Hi Kat, I think i am doing better than I have been in the past. I taking just a tenth of 37.5 Mg.Twivce a day.  Strange that I feel much better until half an hour after i take a morsel of ven then I am suddenly fatigued! I have noticed I get angry more easily now, (not like me). But my memory is getting bad ( it used to be good, but that will pass, hopefully).I am just hoping I don't get 'protrated withdrawal sympotoms!!! However, I am doing much more now, gardening , housework etc.

What surprises me is that you were given Mirt on top of Ven. My doctor said I have to be totally off ven before she gives me anything else.

How did the two AD's affect you when you went on to Mirt as well as being on Ven? Have you ever been off Ven, Kat. I see from this forum that Pat is not having a good time of it, neither are you by the sound of it. But she is on such a whopping great dose,  Isn't she. When i was on that dose I had severe problems too. So bad in fact that I thought i had serotonin syndrome. And told the receptionist at the GP's that i wanted an immediate appt with ANY doctor. I got it. Gosh i remember i was in a terrible state. However, that is in the past now. and 'hope rests eternal etc'

Anyway, how are you doing?  God bless, john

Glad your feeling better. The psychiactrist put me on both AD's. I've read on these forums that some people are on more than 1 AD. I don't think I've been off ven since starting it a few years ago. I'm sure you could be ok without any medication as your doing so well. 

Hi Kat, Is the folic acid and Vit b complex doing any good for you. I have read that low B6 and low folic acid can affect 'mood'. but that is not depression.

The worst thing about drugs is that they rob you of 'proper' sleep which is when the brain sorts everything out ( so i have been reading!). I can believe it. Insomnia can lead to anxiety and then to depressive illness. And anxiety and stree can lead to insomnia. Could be why Depressive illness is now an epidemic.   And the Pharmaceutical companies are loving it ( big bucks!). It wouldn't surprise me if it was then who started it. After all these AD's tend to cause more problems which means more drugs to try and counteract which means more knacking of the brain. Cynical me! Yes. But i look at the people i know who started of with just one drug for something which had side effects which needed another drug to counteract the side effect  and so on. In the end they are taking several drugs which knack the mind and the body. Doctors and certainly the pharmaceutical companies and the government don't care if people die from the drugs. (Less money to pay out for benefits, pensions and prescriptions!!. Sorreee!! I'm on my soapbox again! One of my failings.

God bless, John.

 

Hi John, hope you dont mind me jumping in. I suffered from crippling anxiety and after horrendous results with SSRIs the Dr put me on 15mg of mirtazapine. They worked well for 3 weeks then just stopped. so it was increased to 30mg. again they worked for 3 weeks then stopped.

The dr then added veneflaxine xr at 75mg for 2 weeks to increase to 150mg.

I got an almost immediate result and the anxiety is under control. I decided not to increase the ven to 150mg as the anxiety is under control. However I was feeling spaced out and emotionally blunt so I decreased the mirt to 15mg.

So i am now on 15mg mirt and 75mg ven xr and that emotionally blunt and spaced out feeling has gone but been replaced with depression and fatigue, which seems to disappear at about 2pm....strange. so i am increasing ven to 93.75mg to see how that goes. i think its all trial and error.

With regards to the mirt - it did increase my appetite and improved sleep at 15mg but after a couple of weeks stopped working for my anxiety. On 30mg i just felt too spaced out and it stopped working too.

Aapparently Mirtazapine and Veneflaxine combo, also called Californian Rocket Fuel is the best you can get so I'm sticking with it and trying to tweak dosage and time of day I take it until I get the best result.

I do feel your pain though. when I first ever experienced anxiety I was put on 10mg of citalopram which worked like a dream for 7 years. when I tried it again it sent me totally crazy. The body and mindshare complex machines.

Sorry I have rambled, hope this helped.