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Muscle weakness vs muscle fatigue

Posted , 6 users are following.

Thelastlaugh
Thelastlaugh

I think for the benefit of people who are in the midst of diagnosis, it's time to put out a discussion on what weakness really is. On the internet there are 2 kinds of weakness, true weakness and perceived weakness. You can have either one, but I believe that doesn't discount the fact that weakness itself is present. Here comes the confusion. True weakness is defined by the inability to

perform basic functions such as lifting your hand etc. Perceived

weakness is the feeling you get when you find yourself unable to lift

your hand for a long period. Both are weaknesses. But the latter is due to fatigue (as so they say).

It only gets more confusing. If you do have progressive muscle weakness, you'll find yourself slowly unable to work those muscles, setting fatigue in very easily. 

Discussion point is: How would one know if their muscles are fatigued due to weakness or are weak due to fatigue ? Is there a subtle difference between those 2? This will definitely help people to tell the doctor more specific details so that correct tests can be performed. 

 

1 like, 20 replies

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  • Beverley_01
    Beverley_01 Thelastlaugh

    Posted

    Interesting point. Or even what if you feel you have both? Muscle weakness in one area and fatigue in another?

    • Thelastlaugh
      Thelastlaugh Beverley_01

      Posted

      I think for the benefit of doubt, let's stick to the same muscle part of interest. I went to the Doctors and they don't seem to have a test for "feeling weak" and only pure clinical weakness. 
    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 Thelastlaugh

      Posted

      I guess then it depends what you're attending the doctors for? As chronic fatigue does what it says on the tin, its a debilitating inability to do everyday tasks without being left in deficit. In my own experience, I believe you are in catch 22 regarding muscle weakness and fatigue In this condition. The lack of activity making muscles weaker In the long run? Depending on if you have mild, moderate or severe cfs/me symptoms.

      I guess also that for some muscle weakness/fatigue isn't their red flag in the first place for this condition?

      It is interesting that there Is a definite difference medically between the two states. The idea of muscle fatigue stated as perceived weakness I feel, is a bit of a discount for the many on here I believe, like me fatigue now far too easily. Still, that's a different discussion : )

      Just curious as to whether muscles aching and /or body shaking Is seen as weakness or fatigue. Mmm..

    • Thelastlaugh
      Thelastlaugh Beverley_01

      Posted

      Let me summarize what you've said so far. In short you're saying that chronic muscle fatigue would let the sufferer feel like their muscle is persistently weak. This would leave him/her thinking that true weakness is at hand. If that's the case, would there be a defining difference to allow someone to self evaluate their predicament ? For myself, I know that climbing a flight of stairs has got my legs really sour and tired that I can't walk anymore. This is a sign of fatigue. But again, this could also be due to weakness in muscle. I've learnt that there's a huge difference between saying "my legs feel weak when climbing the stairs" and "I used to be able to climb 3 flights of stairs with no issue now I am only able to climb one and my muscles just becomes sour and heavy"

      Anyway to your question on aching and shaking (I assume trembling on action. Both of them are can be caused by muscle weakness OR fatigue. They're the consequences of either one of them. Again, confusion..

    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 Thelastlaugh

      Posted

      I think your comment on aching and shaking (trembling) is indeed an interesting and also confusing one in regards definition. I myself often wake shaking, I've not done anything at this point but the start up is already troubled. Everything in overdrive. If I then get out of bed like this, I will wobble down the stairs where I'll shakily pop on the kettle and hardly have the power to lift it. Possibly spilling water or dropping the cup. Weakness or fatigue?

      In regards walking up and down stairs, is it down to how we describe things perhaps? I'd say I feel generally exhausted with stairs and maybe not see that my legs are an issue as after a couple of flights my whole body is struggling. I used to manage a few flights climbing two steps at a time. I have tried recently and my legs hurt after the 1st try of a gap of two.

      You asked about in summary. I'm saying if we don't use our muscles because they're fatigued easily, they could become weak due to lack of use

    • Thelastlaugh
      Thelastlaugh Beverley_01

      Posted

      I think some lucky people do get good and bad days, at least on their off days they'd know and can test that their muscles are functioning as per usual. For people like us who chronically fatigue, I Guess the best way is to keep getting to a point you feel ready to test things out again. 

      I would say say that if you could substitute the action of lifting something lighter or gripping something easier and try to test it out, perhaps you get a good idea of whether you're losing function totally or you lie in the gray area of fatigue and weakness. Good for your next doctor update anyways 

    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 Thelastlaugh

      Posted

      It's an interesting concept and I'm going to see on good days mentally if I can think about my muscle function. My memory and brain fog can be my hardest symptoms sometimes
  • lynne69494
    lynne69494 Thelastlaugh

    Posted

    l personally think, for myself at least the muscle weakness is due to fatigue, and the fatigue is constant, but can vary a little from day to day, or times of the day, and like all people without cfs, even athletes, excessive prolonged exertion leads to fatigue, many have long periods of rest after major exerting events,  but the level with cfs fibro whatever condiiton causes weakness, is far far worse. l think for anyone who cant lift their hand or walk at all could be due to a disability along with cfs, lve known people who have cancer who  get progressively weaker, but even near the end of their lives, days or hours, they often still have the ability to raise their hand, or brief movements of strength. l dont really like the term `perceived`, for cfs, it can sort of indicate we are influenced by our perception of what we can do or not, if  we percieve that we cant do it that is due to long history of experiences of not being able to and becoming ill attempting a particular function, which l think most push themselves daily beyond what they percieve what theyre able to do without becoming ill or collapsing.  l also have copd, and like others with it, we push ourselves beyond what our body is capable of doing, 

    l think its human nature to strive to lead a normalish life, to overcome, due  to our total frustration and anger with ourselves and our bodies, we can also feel anxiety and depression if we feel its progressing.  We endure a abnormal lifestyle daily, not a good lilfestye naturally, like waiting to overcome flu or pneumonia symptoms after affects, but never overcome them, we learn to adapt the best we can as alternative to giving up on life, and like all animals instinctively struggle to keep alive. and make the best of our drastic  limitations whilst all around us seeing others who dont have to. For me, like many, from waking, to sit on the bedside for 15-30min waiting for the strength motivation to stand up and move, l guess its perceived, but if going before that fatigue allows would make doing jobs difficult if not  impossible, even when doing it like Bev its hobble shaky resting leaning, elbows on worktops, that just to make a drink and sit down again, till better function comes, sometimes it doesnt and feel a need or sometimes just fall asleep without awareness of going off, not aware till waking an hour or two hours later and seeing the time. At times the fatigue weakness can lead to shakiness or nausea, gobblygook or slurred speech. l think healthy people can get the same or simular symtpoms short term, after doing far more, climbing a mountain, or a l00 mile hike, after serious injuries. l think fatigue coming after minor exertion is a weakness.  But we do get weaker muscles through less activery the vicious circle

    l think gps understand and hear patients experience, but rarely put it to the test by asking patients to perform minor tasks, such as stretching, toe touching, using a treadmill, often not even examing  as they often do with athritus or heart patients, does that mean they accept what you tell them or dont, they percieving how we,d respond, l know one person who was told by gp, well you walked in to surgery ok, duh, l dont think gps do much in testing, through to lack of knowledge of conditions, or feel they cant prove it through  testing and prefer to have a rheumatologist or specialist unit to test and diagnose. l understand what your saying and think its good we read study trial ourselves with activety supplaments diet, but really dont like the medical terminology of percieved be it your or their explanation of it is credible, but l dont like the term  syndrome either, l have intersticial cystitus, which is explanatory of the condition, interstitium meaning crevices cracks, which we  with ic have in the bladder wall, itus inflammation, so inflammation causing hemmorages and cracking of bladder wall. now the medics have renamed it, and it was intitially before ic, known as hunners ulcer, after a dr hunner who found ulcers in the bladder,  now painful bladder syndrome, as with chronic fatigue syndrome, irritable bowel syndrome, to me it lessens the perceived severity of conditions by medical profession, and more so the public, who can and do resort to well lve chronic fatigue, or yes l get pain in my bladder at times, or my bowel gets irritated, so why are you making a big deal about it. as many of the public respond with, and some gps, but for anyone who has it severe its a huge deal, its only our adaptability and human or animals spirit that keeps us striving, finding some fullfillment and happiness where and when we can, adn most live in hope for improvement. be it medical advances or self help, maybe even spontaneious, wake up and it will be gone. Scuse my cynicism of meds, in part due to having gp who appears to make light of it, or maybe because they cant give a pill to improve it, and feel frustrated also with it, lve also had cancer years ago, l,m just greedy, but l was lucky in treatment worked well remittance, but in that year of treatment l was swamped with mass attention, gp called without being asked to,long chat, then practise nurse, hospice nurse also, person from dwp to get me best benafits available, the people who,d heard, l told  just a couple of people  knowing it would spread, well empathy sympathy offers of help,overwhelming and lovely. But for i.c, and cfs fibro, few  empathise or offer help, some are even snide mocking sarcy, and l rarely mention it unless its a  direct question. The best support is from people on mbs, this one and health unlocked understand, take an interest, make you laugh and hopeful. Sorry for long rant, its just my experiences thoughts and feelings, and send best wishes to all with it whatever way they deal with it.  ps Hope your doing ok Beverley, not heard from you for a while, but we understand each other, times of being less communicative due to me cfs. But not this morn ing for me it seems.

    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 lynne69494

      Posted

      Hi Lynne,

      Yes am okish, I replied to message on depersonalization but, have noticed recently that the site isn't always sending alerts to messages. I'm still recovering from the journey but, glad I did it. Have a busy week ahead that I'm not looking forward to that ends with a visit to spinal specialist. Lovely! Doubt I'll get any clarity from that.

      I think that there are so many pieces of the jigsaw in cfs/me/fibro and each person's jigsaw is unique. At present, my tinnitus is through the roof again and driving me to distraction along with brain fog, pain and total exhaustion. The busy week is like climbing the Himalayas where as to most its a normal week.

      I feel if I could wave a magic wand, none of us suffering this condition would be. We'd all have our lives without this complication.

      Bit philosophical at present but, this discussion seems to have made me that way.

      Beverley

    • lynne69494
      lynne69494 Beverley_01

      Posted

      Hi Beverley, glad you enjoyed adn thought your journey of worht,  l,ddo the same, at least its gettingout of a rut which is easy to get into, l fetl rough earlier on in week, although woke tired today, enegy a bit later on, hence my long ramble,  phillospholical as well, lol,what am l like, l didnt go out today, on computer and lost tirack of time,  then look ouit and its ralinign, scuse typing, gobbledgok, some down o me butalso the net, going slow and intermittent, l,ll have to talk to sky, l hate it, but it must tbhe them, used to be terrrible when  hen l ws with talk talk, nightmare sky beenokish, but recently so slow, lm typing quicker thanprints comoing up, so cant see it till later, and my printers gone oof also, l typ;e and then  print letters tot hose without net, fdont know whats wrolng with it, think l,m redy for bed, d, didnt sleep today ,though slept in, now tired, l think mostof us have ear probs, l get tinniutus not too abd at present, and vertigo wilth somethings, heights mainlyh. ARe y ou seeing specials due to pain in spine, or movement, , hope it goes well, l;ve not looked ion on football, ,darent, not a footie fans as suich, but lilke to England to do well, though shocked with whats happening in France, lve no time for football hooligans thugs and dont agree wiht binge drinking, but media and even polaticands blasming England fans for everything bad, and now turns out  they were being attacked  by gangs, some with knives, both russian and french, some serioiusly injfured, shocking state , there is a lot of corruption going on everyhywhere in eujrope its seems and elsewhere l guiess, they should all have cfs and fribro, give ujs the energy we,d put it to some posative  creative use, not destructive, isdnt it the way thoujgh, must be a philosphy mood, l,ll be doing ga ga n ext, ned sleep, well hope things go well next week for you, and me, and all, take care lynne
    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 lynne69494

      Posted

      Hi Lynne,

      Yes sometimes you just have to try it and hope for the best with this condition. Am hoping I Don't run out of steam this week. Things to do and shattered. Had to go out today, fell asleep when I got back and back in bed now. Tomorrow the same. It's awful feeling scared of how bad I might feel doing normal things!

      How are you today? The weather has certainly changed here. After the flooding last year, I think many where I live worry when the weather shifts. There are businesses that are still closed here. My son has been volunteering at the download festival and many tents were completely submerged there! Still, it's quite warm where we are and none of the rain seems to be breaking that.

      The football hooligans ruin it for those who are genuine fans sadly. I saw a match yesterday which was friendly but the main story was about the violence. Then the shooting in Florida, alll very sad. thought for the families and friends.

      Hope you are resting well and manage a good nights sleep

      Beverley

    • lynne69494
      lynne69494 Beverley_01

      Posted

      hi beverley,

      lve also felt very tired this week, more than usual even, which is a worry, usual in if its getting worse. the weather probably doesnt help, being grey wet and dreary.  l did go out yesterday but not for long, stilll managed okish,  l,m ready for bed and dropped for half hour after tea. its the mornings worse for me, restless nights then sleep in and take longer to come round and function, unbelievable sat on edge of bed for l5-20min  waiting for body to respond to movement, well  horizontally initially, then in robe longer, and never been one for swanning about in a robe, like to get dressed asap. Where l am, dont know if its because l,m in a valley, but the hills looked covered in smog every morning, sometimes all day, its really not that often they look clear summer or winter, some is weather fronts, but sure a lot is pollution. l recall the hills looking crystal clear most of time when l was growing up, and gorgeous sunsets, clear skies with purple pink blue as the sun went down.  But odd how warm it is late at night, as now, almost stuffy, certainly changing. l,m not a footie fan really though always like to see England do well, l actually prefer test cricket, dad and bros influence l guess.

      As for the massacres, quite shocking and terrible, and most young people, and that phone call from the son who was hidden, knowing he,d die and telling his mum how much he loved her, how tragic, she must have been frantic, should have been a happy ending for them,but it wasnt, condolences to them all, my eldest son has been to florida 2 or 3 times, he loves the place, and the people, who give them a really welcoming time,  l wont go into polatics too much, not right place, but its sad that there is a lot of division and hate being created in the world, many doing down usa, polatical, corrupting influences, not the England l grew up in.   l feel sorry for the young of the future, but l giuess they adapt to their times,though my youingest son would like to live in japan or new zealand. bit of a difference, talk about  being abandoned, but its for the future l think, they used to kid  me when l asked if theyd look after me when l  got old, `dont worry mum, we,ll get you in a good home`, l hope never. if the cfs gets any worse l,ll be lookinglike miss haversham,cobwebs everywhere. But still live in hope, day to day it can improve, hope your busy week is manageable and worthwhile, take care lynne.

    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 lynne69494

      Posted

      Hi Lynne,

      It's been a horrid few days and it has taken its toll on me. My youngest daughter has been getting bullied and things came to a head this week where she disappeared after school and turned her phone off. Very difficult to deal with these kinds of things when you're already running on empty. I was already in deficit to start with! Yesterday I had to pick her up in the day as she'd locked herself in a toilet again and was very distressed. I just feel flattened by it all.

      It is very sad some of the violence that is going on in the world right now, mostly due to ignorance and fear. Yesterday the mp that was shot in birstal really shocked me. A friend works in a school near there and they were on lock down while he was on the loose. Again political and again some one who I feel has mental health issues not being recognized and treated. Just like Florida's atrocities, so sad for the families as who can fully recover from such horrific acts?

      I hope you're not feeling as bad today. I too live in a valley and it can seem more gloomy when the weather is grey and damp. Hope today brightens and you can get some time in the garden today.

      Best wishes

      Beverley

    • lynne69494
      lynne69494 Beverley_01

      Posted

      Hi Beverley, Not been a great week for me either combination of fatigue being bad, terrible on waking, like challenge endurance every morning to function physically and mentally, doesnt seem to make much difference how much sleep l have, never 7-8hrs for a couple of years, either 3-4 or 5-6 on good night, but always wake same. Then its l-3hrs to come round a bit.  Sorry about your daughters probs and affect on you, l recall it with my son, funnily was just thinking about it an hour since on reading a local mb, posters debating about whether to interfere or not, due to him seeing kids acting dangerously on the road, risking selves and others, he did interfere and got responses varying. l recall growing up in the fifties when people did interfere in close families neighbourhoods, safer to then without risking abuse threats from some, people respected each other, and if kid in wrong parents would back up those who told them off, aslo same theory for adults. But recalled my son being bullied, not very bad but nasty, knocking his backpack off, pinching his tie, then they started ringing him, abuse, l answered next time and heard it, rang the parents of two involved, one so shocked upset worried, sorry, other stroppy about it, her son main one, now 20yrs later just sent to jail. But its worse times now for kids bullied than in those times. l,m guessing she,s a teen or near, they are very hard times for them and parents, one son sort of sailed through okish, the other had hard times, even worse bullying assault, ended up with authoraties involved, nightmare time for him and us, opnly 10 or 11, did get him to a new school where better, still took a long time for him to settle, then did get himself off to  uni at 20 graduated and good job now, partner own home, still the worry never ends, if therye ill, one son has diabetes and being young he abused his diet, pepsi in mass, junk food,  now suffering, but a career, but struggles with affects, then its their relationships, never ends worrying times, but good times make up for it.  l totally agree with you whats happening in the world, more so uk, so much division,fear abuse, hate, violence,  become an uglier country, makes it seem simple relaxed and happier when l grew up, 50s - 60s, now   makes country more unstable dangerous, l feel sorry for younger people with the future. He did have mental health probs but hating with it, some also stirred on mbs.  Doesnt matter what political party we support, eu in or out, who the attacker or victim is, its a vile danger, its against democracy, again l grew up when partners friends workmates neighbour support different party,s policies, they didnt hate them, we teased each other over it.andstill friends, too many extremists in uk. birstall about 25mile away, shocking as in florida, condolences to all innocent victims,  l guess in comparison our lot not too bad, but saying that as its a ok day for me, bought a can of red bull to try, will try anything within reason, l,d try wacky bacci if l thought it would help, but l,d be one who became paranoid, phycotic, or just slept even more, and more problems.  Will stick with the vits mins. But yes its grey and damp, l,m sure summers are getting worse each year, not had a decent one for years, its just odd days, do they pay them to say were going to have a long hot summer, live in hope its from july to october, not today, so no gardening, but will use my okish day for something posative.  l really hope your daughters problems and your worries over it are resolved, l recall my son dissapearing, bit frantic, called the police in, he,d been sat  in local park hours, phew, relief, annoyed, but hope it imjproves for you.  l know youll bounce back, its in you to do that, take care l ynne 
    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 lynne69494

      Posted

      Hi Lynne,

      It was such a long hard day yesterday with her and had today off school and attended an appointment with her which went ok. Having monday off too and see where we go from there. I really feel for her but, also for the school as they need to make sure she's safe when there and she managed to hide for an hour. Poor girl got herself very distressed. Yes, she's a young teen and moving schools isn't an option as the nearer school would have had more bullying sadly. I have four children, one just finished uni, one end of first year, one at college and my younger one. Bullying does seem a modern trend sadly. Am glad your son got through ok but its just awful when It's happening.

      In regards birstal, I'm also about 25 miles away! Ikea and the showcase cinema are what we used to go to near there. Today, my sister's school was on lock down as someone was in the school grounds with a knife! What is happening, it seems to have set off some kind of reaction in West Yorkshire!

      Mental health services are being cut everywhere and I think instances like this must highlight the bigger picture.

      I'm sorry you're feeling a bit worse presently, me too and I'm very aware that I've not managed the rest I needed this week. Sadly, unrefreshed sleep is such a huge part of this condition and doesn't help at all. Hope you can manage to do something nice over the weekend and it would be good if the weather held out too.

      Beverley

    • lynne69494
      lynne69494 Beverley_01

      Posted

      hi Beverley,  Hope todays been decentish for  you,  l woke earlyish, usual look of grey skies, fell asleep after lunch over an hour,  woke feelling. really groggy, took an age to come round,did get myself out, bit of an endurance, it felt really heave and damp, the air didnt feel good so was tired and breathless glad to get home, later trim hedge a bit for all of 2 lomin sessions.  Youve done well to get two of your children to uni, l was really happy my son settled at uni after the bullying years earlier, but it did affect him a long time on and off, didnt think he,s stick it but he did and graduated, he went to trinity horsforth, nice uni, he,d to work at a call centre for a year or so, then got into career in mental health well paid, but dont know how secure, if increasing mental health probs are anything to go by, it,ll be secure for a long time. But dont know if he,ll stay in this area, his bros wouldnt come back to west yorks from norfolk, to be honest if l was younger or fitter,or richer l wouldnt stay, there are some lovely places and nice scenery in west yorks, but from Leeds to Skipton, same with sth yorks, mass problems. divisions, drugs, shame as some lovely scenery, One of our local schools had someone in the grounds with a gun, air rifle, police and lock down there also. l,m nearer the west coast, still in west yorks, we get it all, ripper, neilson panther, riots, my niece recently moved to scarborough, and theyve even probs there, though not scale of west yorks.  l hope things improve for you daughter, teenage years can be tough, very emotional  times, but in a way envy you, as l think daughters stay closer to their mums, more in common, l and my friends all visited our mums regular, helped them when older, shopped, lunch,  picnics, my mum drove me mad at times, she was a feisty little irish woman, but we were close, and l still miss her a lot, now near 20yrs later, l ws close to my sons growing up but once they get a partner it drops off a bit, dissapointing, would llike to see them more regularly, but youll know the saying, till they get a wife, l used to joke with them, will you look after me if l get ill, their response, dont worry,we,ll get you in a home, recently my son mentioned a scooter or wheelchair, l said and who,d going to push it, oh we,ll get an electric, all heart. l,d rather crawl than a home. See what tomorrow brings, hope you get some r and r, take care lynne
    • Beverley_01
      Beverley_01 lynne69494

      Posted

      Hi Lynne,

      Am also "just" in West Yorkshire and there are some lovely areas. Re the girls , my son's the one who tends to help more and my eldest daughter is going to move to America! It Is hard re bullying and it's awful to see your children suffer.

      Am totally shattered at present and sounds like you are too. My entire body was shaking earlier and its such a strange sensation. So easy to do too much.

      Am sure your sons are joking re a home! It was with great reluctance that we had to put mum in one but she has Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and became very unwell. Social services said she shouldn't live alone anymore. she seems happy enough there most of the time but isn't totally with us, poor woman. I don't think many of us would choose a home unless necessary.

      Hope the weather picks up a bit for the rest of the weekend.

      Beverley

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