Non-Invasive BPH Treatments I'm considering

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Please forgive the length of this but if you take the time to read it, I'm sure you will be able to relate.

60 years old.  Very fit, very active, very athletic.  I weigh 5 pounds more today than I did as a senior in High School.  I exercise, eat right, don't smoke, used to drink a glass of wine once every 3 days or so but can't even do that anymore without it causing urinary difficulties.  I've been dealing with BPH symptoms seemingly since time began.  I have not slept 8 hours a night for 30 years or more except for one night on February 23, 2010, from pure exhaustion, 3 days after my Mom died.  I don't know what it feels like to not feel like I don't have to urinate.  I have an enlarged prostate.  Who doesn't. I have tried Saw palmetto, Beta Sitosterol, Urolxitrol, Tamsulosin, Half a tab of Cialis daily, I've tried prostate magic pills, blended mixtures of the world's best of the best.  Swedish Flower, Rye Grass, this that, that, this. . .I still have BPH but the healthy food store owners are driving new cars thanks to me.  I'm done with pills, pills and more pills.  I'm done with side effects and lightheadedness, etc. I've become my grandparents with all the medications laying around.  I hate it.  I no longer know what it feels like to feel normal.

I have done endless research, I have been to multiple urologists, I have had ultrasounds, cystoscopies, rectal ultrasounds, uroflow tests, urodynamic tests, etc., etc.  Urologists tell you, "Hey, we'll just go in and clean you out, remove some tissue and you'll be like new."  The fact that they mention all of this so casually and nonchalantly is amazing to me.  We are men.  Men are visual, physical creatures.  We are used to a sexual experience where there is a result of our gun going off.  If you get a standard TURP, you will be shooting blanks forever.  This is insane.  Doctors act like this is no big deal, everything will feel the same.  No you won't.  It will NEVER be the same.  You're BROKEN.  You have lost a bodily function that if I am correct has (along with the help of a female partner) been creating the human race since a man first discovered his erection.  Having a ream job TURP is like going to a rock concert and not being able to hear anything.  They call the old fashioned TURP the ‘Gold Standard’?  You have to be kidding me.  It’s more like the kiss of sexual death to anybody that goes through it.  It butchers you.  I know men that have had to seek counseling they were so depressed after having a standard TURP.

I find it unimaginable and absolutely hard to believe that after endless decades of research, there is still not a reasonable and non life changing treatment for BPH, the most common problem that men face.  

Anyway, after years of my research, waiting and waiting for something wonderful to come along that will revolutionize how we treat this miserable part of a man’s life, I find that I can not wait any longer.  Constant UTIs (Urinary Tract Infections), long regimens of antibiotics, plus the daily Flomax, Cialis, etc.  I’m sick of the whole thing.  Now I have some thickening on my bladder wall and some trebeculations.

I am considering one of two or a possible combination of both to treat my BPH.  One is the A PKTM TURP which uses lower-voltage energy to vaporize and cut away the portion of the prostate that is enlarged and causing your symptoms.  The lower-voltage PKTM Technology, combined with the safety of operating in saline, results in a safer, faster and more effective procedure.  This procedure is also known as a ‘Gyrus, bipolar procedure.  No, not bipolar like my ex-wife, this is the good kind. 

Basically it is an Electrovaporization of the prostate with the Gyrus device.  The reason there tends to be less complications is that the surgeon can be more precise with what is removed and what is left alone.  There is also a saline solution that is used throughout the procedure.

I’ve been told and I’ve learned through my research that there is a 10-15% chance for retrograde ejaculation with this procedure, recover time is much shorter, less bleeding and very little chance, if any for ED.  Those are fairly good odds for a good outcome compared to Las Vegas where your chance for a bad outcome is about 99%.  It's still a chance but if I don't do something soon, I will be facing worse problems with my bladder, kidneys, etc.  I am still sexually active so would like to preserve that functionality.

If there is anyone out there that has had a Gyrus procedure, please reply to me with your comments.

The other procedure that everyone seems to be talking about is the UroLift.  Obviously this procedure is the least invasive one there is with eseentially no tissure being removed but there is simply not enough data yet with such a new treatment option.  The idea is great. Insert a device into the urethra, the insert and deposit some small anchors through and behind the prostate wall and tether some others on the inside urethra side and voila - you have an opening held open by stainless steel tabs and thread.  Sounds pretty darn good.  but. . . .I’m not sure anyone can convince me that you won’t be able to feel these foreign objects as you move around in (and around) such a sensitive gland.  The other thing I don’t get from a mechanical standpoint. . . .there are anchors on both ends of a surgical thread, what’s to keep the inner anchors from pulling the outer ones inward, thus closing off the urethra?  Am I missing something?  Then there’s the issue of the prostate which will continue to grow and grow over time.  How long will it take until it overwhelms the anchors or pulls through - or worse.  Is there anyway to remove something that resembles a spring-wing wall molly bolt that has been (essentially) blindly placed through your prostate wall?  The other question is that it is an implant situation so will the body reject it?

Hey.  I am all for doing something to relieve my BPH and see what it’s like to maybe sleep through the night and see what it feels like to urinate without having to pack a suitcase for the bathroom trip(s) but there’s a reason that there is a dozen (or more) different procedures for BPH on the market right now.  It’s because men are demanding better options.  All the the procedures claim to be the best invention since canned peas but the reality is that whether you scrape it, burn it, electrocute it, laser it, vaporize it, bake it, auger it, pulverize it, ream it, etc., it still destroys what it is to be a man.

If anyone has had the UroLift (or the Gyrus procedure) please reply and help me make a more informed decision and also to get the word out to our fellow BPH sufferers out there.  Maybe through our words and actions, we can some day create a vaccine or at least a completely non-invasive out patient solution.  Thank you for taking the time to read my long call for help.  I sincerely look forward to any thoughts you may have.

David

 

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  • Posted

    You'll learn more in this and other forums than in an docs office as they all have favorite ways to make a living, not necessarily the best for the patient. 

    If you've read my posts you know that I had a very successful Holep procedure Oct 31, 2014. I consider it successful as I was already shooting blanks from the meds I took for years and Holep didn't make that action any worse. I'm 79 so that enters into the equation as well. 

    I recently have read several posts regarding successful and other not so much so with PAE; Prostatic Artery Embolization. A totally different routine that is done by a radiologist not a urologist. I don't know how it works regarding the dreaded RE but it is worth a look, it's fairly new for BPH. 

    Have any of the docs that have peered around in there told you the size and configuration of your prostate? Urolift only works for prostates up to 80mg (?) or so and with only two lobes. As knowlege advances that will probably improve.

    I think your fear of Urolift is probably unfounded concerning the staples coming loose or the body rejecting them with the reservation that the experience of the surgeon with this technique and the quality of the facility would be the deciding factors for me. Urolift began in any large number only in 2014, so be aware. I've said it all in earlier posts so I won't repeat these statements about the safety of some facilities.   

    If you can get over the concern about RE then I would do as I did and go for a "one and done" solution (Holep at the Mayo) )with RE as the only downside. 

    Either way I would definitely research PAE, but there is another solution that several posters in these forums have used for years; they self-catheterize several times every day and are avoiding all meds, no surgery, no problems at all. I believe you're a bit more squeamish than most of us and this may be a horrible idea to you.  I've done it, as reported before, I just was at the point of blockage and wanted to be sure that I could relieve myself if necessary rather than wait in the EM for hours in real pain. It's no big deal after you have done it once, you do need the right equipment, of course. You can empty your bladder completely and be good to go fro 3-4 hours or so, maybe more. Again, it's worth a look. The cath I used is by Bardia; 14 French, funnel end, has a turned up tip to help maneuver thru the prostate and has a small button on the other end to mark when the tip is turned up in the right position. I would start with the small diameter and if it will go I wouldn't use a larger one.  They come in a sterile package with lots of lube, they are for a single use and in my opinion, as I have stated they are just part of the tool kit of a BPH sufferer.  

    You have done a lot of research, you write well and you can make a valuable contribution to these forums. I hope you will stay with us and give back what you learn. Many thousands of men around the world will read your posts. 

    My best to you.

    Ron in Texas

    • Posted

      @RonTexan: The cath I used is by Bardia; 14 French, funnel end, has a turned up tip to help maneuver thru the prostate and has a small button on the other end to mark when the tip is turned up in the right position. I would start with the small diameter and if it will go I wouldn't use a larger one.  They come in a sterile package with lots of lube, they are for a single use and in my opinion, as I have stated they are just part of the tool kit of a BPH sufferer.  

      ------------------------------

      The "turned up end" is called a "coude" tip and makes it easier to for those with enlarged prostates which is about everyone here. The cath mentioned, Bardia, is I believe a red rubber tip catheter, very soft and popular. I started with similar. In the U.S. at least all catheters are marked "for single use", but the reality is most of the catheters, including the Bardia can be used multiple times, even up to a week or two which makes the cost amost insignificant. Another type of catheter, the hydrophillic catheter, does not require external lubricant and can only be used once because of the nature of its coating. I use the Speedicath hydrophillic with Coude tip,  but my insurance picks up the costs.

    • Posted

      It's amazing to me that infection is not a larger concern when self cathing especially using one several times. Using an antibiotic lubricant is helpful, I'm sure. It's bound to work as you arent the only poster who swears by it. I believe that self-cathing, as I have stated several times, is a necessary part of your tool kit whether you use it as the only means to avoid blockage or not. 

      Here's a thought for you from a "prepper", I would recommend putting up a good store of caths, certainly a year or so worth, just in case of an interruption in supply.  Just like food, water and ammo, you have to have them on hand when the SHTF.. 

      Ron 

    • Posted

      I often wonder about those who self-catheterize to defer surgery. Their prostates continue to grow and one day it will have to done. Another aspect is the 'if you don't use it you lose it' in that if the muscles and sphincters in the area are not being used will they work when surgery is ultimately done?

      When my prostate was 125 grams I several times had burst blood vessels in it plus UTI's and prostatitis. I had deferred laser surgery as I had aortic stenosis and was awaiting surgery. I asked before having my heart valve replaced if the prostate infection I had at the time mattered. They said it would be OK but in the theatre they could not get a catheter past my swollen prostate and had to use a suprapubic one. After surgery they put me on Finesteride and Tamsulosin.  

    • Posted

      You are right,  permanent harm of sphincters, bladder, sexual function and even the kidneys can occur from delaying too long to have a surgical procedure done. But I am living proof that everyone is different as I delayed for at least ten years and haven't suffered from it. Of course I don't know exactly what would have happened if i had endured the old turp routine as my uro wanted back then, but I'll bet a bunch that I'm better off now by waiting and discovering Holep than I would have been otherwise.  

      It's just that every case is so different, but i do think that the meds did a number on my sex life over so many years.   

    • Posted

      Like you I waited ten years and fortunately avoided damage as I would not have TURP.
    • Posted

      How much has your prostate grown during watchful waitng? Mine went fron 35 grams to 75 grams in ten years. I thought that PVP was the end of the story but as one here said prostates are like a weed and grow again and seven years lated it was 125 grams. I just hope that there is not a third coming.
    • Posted

      Ron, I've been self cathing for two years without any infections.  I am super careful, making sure to properly wash hands before starting, and use an antibacterial wipe (e.g. Wet Ones, pre-packaged antibacterial wipes) to clean the first inch or so of the penis.  Also, the individual sterile catheters which I get are very easy to transport, and use.  If people observe these kinds of protocals then, in my opinion, they should be fine and free of bladder infections.
  • Posted

    Mr moderator my post is being moderated although I have violated none of the rules. What's up? Ron
    • Posted

      Hi Ron,

      I only came across this by chance. If you need to ask me something you need to report your post above or send me a Private Message.

      I'll send you a PM explaining why it went for moderation.

      Regards,

      Alan

  • Posted

    Don't forget Gat-Goren, another minimally invasive procedure that reverses prostate growth by improving blood circulation in that area.  No chance of Retro or ED.  It's not for everyone. It's a boutique, experimental procedure that's pricey (ballpark US$ 25,000) and performed in only one overseas clinic.  See my other posts on this board or the "Gat-Goren" thread in the HealingWell forum.  All the best to you, David.
    • Posted

      Thanks everyone for responding to my inquiries.  I really appreciate the fact that lots and lots of people are engaged in conversation about this issue.  As everyone agrees, it's mind boggling that - in this day of nano technology - we cannot come up with a better solution to a problem that affects literally every man at some point.  One of my very good friends is a well schooled urologist.  After all of my research over the past umteenth years and after talking with him today in length, I (we) have decided on a non-aggressive Gyrus procedure which will also remedy my median lobe issue.  He is aware that I would still like to have a reasonable sense of sexual functionality so we have agreed that - overall - all things considered - this is my best option at this point.  I have to do something or I will be creating more problems for myself down the road.  I seriously considered the UroLift and there are 3 doctors that do it in the city I live in Southern California but. . . .

      There are still too many unknowns with the UroLift.  It's simply too new as a procedure.  The prostate continues to grow and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it will need to be done aagin and I don't even want to think of how installed UroLift implants are removed to install different ones.  The other thing is I'm not sure I can live with the fact that I would have implants, stainless steel, thread, etc. in such a sensitive part of my body.  Frankly, I think it would freak me out and that fact alone might cause sexual disfunction.  After all, sex starts in the brain. . . . .

      I would love to continue to hear from people that have had the Gyrus procedure or the UroLift.  If for no other reason, it's nice for all of us to put as many ideas, experiences, results and opinions on the table which helps all of us become more educated.

      I look forward to continuing to hearing from everyone.

      By the way, I apprecate the thought on self catherizing but just don't want to go in that direction at this time.

    • Posted

      We've heard very little if anything about the Gyrus procedure. Let us know how that works out. Ron
    • Posted

      Well, the old fashioned type of TURP, the basic 'ream job' just leaves you like a stuck pig - bleeding, catheter for 2-3 days, long recovery.  Most of the modernized methods allow for there to less bleeding and recovery time so I suppose that's a good thing.  The Gyrus procedure is one my doctor likes to use, he feels it is much more precise and recovery is faster.  I know that I may have some bladder spasming for a while - agter all, I have been dealing with a bladder working overtime for a long time so opening things up will make the bladder pulse.  I feel pretty comfortable with the doctor I have, he's a male sexuality and infertility doctor so if anyone would know how to salvage functioning internal male parts, it's him.
    • Posted

      It was being done in some English hospitals in the ealy 2000's. One urologist did several hundred of them.

      I inquired about getting it done at Ayr hospital when I lived in Scotland and was told that they had a one year waiting list.

    • Posted

      Hi David;  When do you have the gyrus scheduled???  I know that we all here on this site would really appreciate deeply hearing how it goes and your recovery time, etc etc.  Hope you will keep us posted.  I for one will say a nice prayer for you to have a huge success and speedy recovery.  I still don't really know the difference between the gyrus and the plasma button turp.  They sound quite similar.
    • Posted

      David,

      All the best with your operation, but could you please tell us where you came up with the 10-15% figure for retrograde ejaculation with Gyrus?

      Everything I've read puts it from 50-100%, which is about the same as Turp. I mention this again only because this particular issue seemed of paramount importance to you in your first post, and also is of interest to many of us.

      Jim

    • Posted

      I wonder too, about the 10-15% number. In reading the studies you can't help noticing that most researchers carefully avoid any mention of RE. The only study I found that did mention RE was of 2000 patients, by different docs and hospitals and 100% had RE.  

      But overall, the Gyrus procedure is considered more precise and superior to turp and is easily learned by Drs experienced with Turp.  

      There are a few studies compariing Gyrus to Holep and especially with larger prostates, Holep has better long-term results.  There continues to be the stiff learning curve with Holep, most surgeons require 50 or so procedures in order to be considered expert. Not so with Gyrus as it uses the standard turp method.

      For me,  I would go back to the Mayo for Holep as my outcome could not have been better.

      But i can't help remembering a post I read months ago about a turp procedure done in which the surgeon left a "flap" of tissue between the ejaculatory duct and the bladder which effectively blocked the ejaculate from flowing backward and thus eliminating RE.

      That continues to stick in my mind and I have a feeling that if a surgeon can accomplish that action the world will beat a path to his door. What say you, David? Since the Gyrus instrument is more precise than Turp maybe he could do that?  

       

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