Personal Independence Payment. Myths and Fact.

Hi Billy.  I'm sorry you've had such a bad time, but I really don't believe that the DWP are out to get people.  It's all about giving them a clear idea of how you are affected - and I can't stress enough that it is not the disability itself they look at, but the way it affects the activities they are assessing.  What people perceive as the assessors telling 'lies' is sometimes just a difficulty in recognising that the assessor simply doesn't agree with their own assessment of how severely they are affected.  I do hope your investigation sorts things out, and in the meantime I would contact your local MP for help.  Do remember that ESA and PIP are two very different things - ESA looks at your ability to work, while PIP seeks to assess how much difficulty you have in day to day living.  

Wow. I don't know where you are getting your information but there are quite a few errors and a fair bit of nitpicking here !!

errors??? I don't think so.

Maybe you can point to those that you believe are errors for the benefit of everyone on this site?

 

OK I'll try. Firstly.  I don't believe the rules for PIP invite exaggeration. The DWP themselves state that in replacing DLA with PIP, focusing on the impact of the condition rather than the condition itself levels the playing field and makes for a more objective assessment - assessors are health care professionals such as nurses and physiotherapists amongst others, and highly trained in disability analysis.  They also know how to approach claims from people claiming to be badly affected by conditions which should only cause a low level of disability. Similarly, they know that there are also those who will stoically claim they are fine, despite obvious high levels of dysfunction. The assessment recognises that the same health condition can have very different effects on people, and so of course it follows that people with the same condition will not necessarily end up with the same award. Similarly, fluctuations in conditions are assessed for and points awarded where the condition is present on over 50 per cent of days.

Secondly, l believe I did make it clear in my post that there were exceptions to the fresh claim rule – under 16 and over 65 being the main exceptions, and far from having only one shot at claiming PIP, people who have reached 65 when they are migrated from DLA to PIP, have the same rights as everyone else. They can still request that the DWP look again and reconsider the claim, supporting this with fresh evidence where appropriate. They can make a formal appeal and can also make an official complaint to the DWP if they think their claim has been mishandled. If a PIP claim for someone over 65 fails, they can then claim attendance allowance, although this does not include a mobility component.

Apart from these exceptions anyone can make a fresh claim for PIP – the only qualification for application is that the disability must have been in existence for at least three months already and be expected to last at least a further 9 months. 

I believe I am also right in saying that in most cases the first contact with the DWP will be by telephone.  DLA claimants are routinely sent a letter saying their DLA is ending and inviting them to make a claim for PIP.  The normal procedure is for the claimant to phone the DWP by the date specified, and in the call their identity will be checked and basic entitlement established.  The PIP1 form provides the same information as the telephone call and can be requested by the claimant if they do not wish to discuss their claim by phone.  However – the claimant has to contact the DWP to obtain the PIP 1 form and then has to complete and return it, which takes longer, and they are still constrained by the date given by which to make the initial claim.  I’m not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the PIP 1 gives you the right to have DLA evidence considered for PIP, and the telephone call does not, but DWP openly advise that where there is recent DLA or ESA evidence available it will be considered alongside any other PIP evidence.  Once initial entitlement is established the claimant is then sent the PIP 2 form in which to state their claim and give details of their condition. 

Your supposition that a face to face assessment is a last resort is incorrect. Regardless of any additional evidence sent  with the PIP 2 form, most claimants will have a face to face assessment – this was the specific intention of PIP, as DLA routinely made awards without a formal assessment, and the benefit was over subscribed as a result.  PIP was intended to be more rigorous.  The DWP had originally  estimated that around 70 per cent of claimants would require a face to face assessment, but this is currently running at around 98 per cent – the decision is made by the assessment provider, based on all information gathered,  and it is far from being  a last resort, as you suggest. The gathering of additional medical evidence is currently under review by the DWP as generally this tends to involve doctors  or other HCPs  giving a description of the disability and symptoms, but these reports are rarely specific to the activities being assessed, so the DWP are looking at how best to proceed.

As regards pain, the DWP’s own guidance to assessors clearly states that for the walking test, the distance measured is the point at which the claimant has to stop because of the pain or discomfort felt.  Walking through pain is the subject of a current tribunal review and no decision has yet been made. I agree with you on this one - if you are in pain at any point you should not be regarded as being able to complete the distance to an acceptable standard but this view is not currently supported by the DWP. Hopefully this will change depending on the pending judgement

Where pain is an issue, it obviously follows that painkillers have to be taken into account, but the side effects also have to be considered. I don’t really understand the point you are trying to make regarding pain relief -  pain management clinics are not appropriate for everyone and require a referral from a GP or Consultant - and for most there are waiting lists.  You mention Gabapentin – I take this, supplemented by paracetamol 500 and codeine.  This does not kill the pain by any means but does take the edge off to enable me to live with it and take part in everyday life. If I were to take painkillers to the extent where the pain is eliminated I would be so badly affected by the side effects, I would not be able to function in the real world, and I suspect this is the case for most people living with intractable pain. The assessment rules say that IF painkillers are effective enough to allow the claimant to carry out an activity at the appropriate time, then they should be considered – but that the assessor should also consider their effect.  However, if, for example the claimant wakes in the morning with pain and cannot wash and dress at the appropriate time because they have to take painkillers and allow time for them to reduce the pain, then they should not be considered as being able to complete that activity as they cannot do it at the appropriate time of day. This is a simple example, but it appears in the DWPs’ own rules. 

Finally, your point on mandatory reconsideration.  The normal procedure is for the claimant to ring the DWP and request a mandatory reconsideration, which must then be submitted by the claimant within 28 days of the original decision.  The whole procedure can be done over the phone but most people opt to put their reasons in writing as it gives them an opportunity to provide further evidence if required.  It also presents an opportunity  for the claimant to ask for a copy of the assessment report used to make the decision – this can be helpful as claimants can use information contained in it to challenge the decision.  A common reason for DWP to refuse to change a decision, is this the claimant has not submitted any further evidence.  Where reconsiderations are done over the phone there is no opportunity to present further evidence, so the claimant has a better chance by making a case in writing.  In addition, if the case goes to tribunal, the claimant will have a copy of the letter stating their reasons for wanting a reconsideration – this hard copy cannot be disputed by the DWP.

I’m sorry if my post caused any confusion, it was my intention to help and my information is well researched and up to date.  I hope this clears up any misconceptions.

Point 1.

For a start I doubt that most people would agree that HCPs' are ' highly trained in disability analysis'. Between 1995 and 2004 and 2011 and now i have had face to face assessments for three types of benefit - IIDB, ESA, & DLA. Of the 16, two which were for IIDB were completed by a doctor and the report was spot on. The other 14 were completely wrong, full of lies and wrong assumptions. So from my experience 87.5% of all of my face to face assessments were all overturned at a later stage which proved beyond a doubt that they were fiction.

With regards to exaggeration. If a particular condition would normally give rise to a high level of disability, but that a particular claimant didn't have that level, isn't it possible that knowing that if he/she said it did then they would get an award - they would exaggerate the claim?

Let's take say Arthritis of the neck, shoulders, arms. wrists, fingers, hips, knees and feet. With that you would espect a high level of difficulties. Let's then assume that someone with all of that doesn't have very much difficulty - would they not be tempted to say that they did? I know many that match what NHS Choices/Patient says they could have to make it that they did.

Point 2.

All I said was that not everybody can make repeat claims for PIP.  Those under 65 in April 2013 but over 65 when they are told to transfer from DLA to PIP only have one stab at making a claim. Whether they chose not to, don't apply for an MR or go to appeal is imaterial. At 68 I didn't want to transfer as I believed at the time that I would not get an award so I didn't see that the hassle was important - so my DLA (MRC & HRM)

was closed down  earlier this year. I then asked about re-applying for PIP later and was told that is was not possible as I was over 65.

As for AA - is there really any point in making a claim - as you point out there is no mobility component (no Motability car, no car tax relief and no automatic Blue Badge)  but more importantly the government are currently in consultation to have AA scrapped this year with the money being given to LA's instead to help with care for the elderly.

Point 3.

If you had a look at the PIP1 form and the copy of the script used for telephone claims you will see that there are three important aspects that are missed off when using the telephone.

They don't tell you that they can use any evidence from any benefit claim, that you can see the evidence before they use any and finally you can dictate what evidence they can use.

Then there is the claim for Additional Support - the script is so worded that they don't tell you the complete list of conditions, they have it worded in such a way that you are badgered into agreeing that you don't need help to fill in the PIP2. On the PIP1 the full list of conditions is shown, you tick the relevant box and you are then entitled to the additional support. There is no bullying by the DWP to try and deny you it.

Point 4.

I would suggest that you read the Assessors handbook and note the conditions of how and why a face to face assessment is decided. Quite an eye opener. Put briefly it is a last resort action if all else fails

Point 5.

For pain relief I take 100mg Morphine (MST) every 12 hours, 300mg of Gabapentin, as much Oramorph as I need on a daily basis and a TENS machine 

This was all prescribed by the pain clinic.With the condition that causes the most pain (Chronic Pancreatitis), it is reduced to a much lower level and I can have a reasonably normal life. I have no idea what you mean by side effects, but suffice it to say what little I have is minimal and compared to the pain I would choose it over the pain any day.

Point 6.

My main point on MR is that you have a choice phone or write.Your original post suggests that writing was the only option which it is not.

 

Hey I'm not angry just disillusioned and bitter with the whole system of benefits to support those over 65 who are disabled.

I did apply for PIP, I wrote a letter to them asking that they send me a form PIP1. This was followed up with a reminder letter 2 weeks later. As nothing had been received i telephoned them wanting to know where the PIP1 form was. I told them of the two letters I had sent to which the girl replied 'we have no record here of either of those letters'. I asked her to send me the form to which she replied 'there is no point in sending you one as it is already too late to return it, you have missed the deadline'. Then I received a letter from them telling me that my DLA claim had been closed down. This was followed by a letter from the Pension Service telling me that as there was no DLA award in place, my Guranateed Pension Credit award will cease forthwith. This was then followed by a letter from the council telling me that as the Pension Credit had ceased we were no longer entitled to the Council Tax Support. This was then followed by a letter from the bank wanting an increase in the mortgage payments as they had been told by the Pension Service that the help towards the interest had ceased. All in all a loss of £300 a week in income!

Then I am told to apply for Attendance Allowance. I did so only to receive a letter back telling me that all new claims are on hold until a decision has been made by the government regarding scrapping the benefit.

Then I hear that they are now taking new Attendance Allowance claims. I go to AgeUK only to be told that yes I can make a claim and it may well be awarded but anytime now the government will be scrapping it - do I still want to bother with the hassle?

My health is no better, in fact it is getting progressively worse. My consultant is worried about my pancreatic condition, my GP is getting extremely anxious over the lack of control over my type 1 diabetes and my inability to get around due to back injuries.

Still I persevere as best I can, but yes I'm not a happy bunny at all, the system is all wrong and it's about time that it changed to help us folk out who have paid in but seem incapable of getting anything back!   

 

How awful for you Les 😞

Thanks for your comments. Not sure about posting on here any further though. I didn't bargain for people taking to pieces and nitpicking what was intended to be helpful experience based knowledge. Its not helpful to those genuinely looking for a bit of help, because they end up not trusting the information, but as you say, bad experiences make these things almost inevitable

OK Les. I’ll have one last try and then I give up.  The DWP assessors handbook is a guide- and that’s all it is. It’s meant for professionals and it’s easy to misinterpret.  It’s constantly being updated and I have the latest copy, which states that where up to date and comprehensive medical evidence is provided, a face to face assessment should be a last resort, where the assessor feels that seeing the claimant would fill in any gaps in the evidence. The DWP advise claimants only to send information they already have, as any medical reports they request are likely to attract a charge, and may not provide the information they are looking for.  According to the DWP’s OWN FIGURES 98 percent of PiP applicants are currently being assessed using a face to face assessment. If you find this hard to believe check out a website called Benefits and Work – it’s all there. It is NOT a  last resort, it is the norm, as most claimants are unable to provide the type of evidence the DWP are looking for and the only way to ensure accuracy is to interview the claimant.

I’m not saying that PiP is perfect, far from it, but what I tried to do here was to ensure people are well informed as to how to make the best possible claim.  You seem to have taken issue with this, it you’ve also contradicted yourself.  On the one hand you say that you did not make a claim for PiP when your DLA ended because you didn’t want the hassle, but further on, you say you asked for a PIP 1 form and the DWP didn’t send one in time for you to return it ( a perfect example of the phone call being a better option if you ask me).  If you decided not to make the claim for PiP when your DLA ended, then you can’t complain when the DWP tell you that you can no longer do so.  The rules were clear and there for all to see. Once you turn 65 you can no longer make a claim for PiP – you were given every opportunity to do so, so you were the architect of your own doom on this one – no one to blame but yourself.  

Finally, your statement that Attendance Allowance is being scrapped is just not true.  The government launched a consultation on this, with a few options under discussion, one of which is to devolve the  funding to local councils. Absolutely NO decision has been made on this, as the proposals were made by David Cameron and George Osborne, and there is no word yet, as to whether the present cabinet will be pursuing it.  Even if it is approved, it will not affect existing claimants, who will continue to receive AA for as long as they continue to satisfy the qualifying conditions.  Whoever told you that they have suspended new claims for AA is either plain wrong, or you have misunderstood.  I know this for a fact because a member of my family has just applied for and been granted AA in the last couple of weeks.

I'm really sorry for the situation you now find yourself in Les, but you can’t blame the DWP for all of it.  None of the disability benefits are perfect, but DWP assessors have to work within the rules for each benefit.  You’re not doing yourself any favours by not cooperating with what they ask you to do.  I would advise you make a claim for Attendance Allowance 

I have found your post very very helpful Pam.  Please don't stop posting 

Your words are postive and informative and I will be of great help ro anyone in the process of, or planning to claim for PIP.  I just wished you have came along before I applied 

One last word. I have just done some digging online and it appears that even if Attendance Allowance is devolved to local councils, it will still be paid as a cash benefit directly to those who qualify  - councils themselves are not happy about the proposals as it will cost them more money to administer the benefit.  In any event, any changes to the benefit are unlikely to be introduced until April 2018, so Les, please apply as soon as you can't make sure you are safely in receipt of it before any changes are introduced.

That's really nice to hear. Happy to help if I can.

Please stay - even though I have my pip award I want to stick around to support other. I dont have the knowledge or skills that you have but I still want to offer support because I know from experience how stressful the application process can be.  I think you would be an asset to the forum 

As a final reply to:

I agree that the guide is what it is. It is a guide on how the assessors should be dealing with PIP claims. Yes a face to face is a last resort - I said so earlier and the guide confirms it.

If 98% of applicants are being given a face to face assessment then that means that the PIP2 form and the evidence supplied by the claimant is not fully satisfactory. As such as last resort a face to face assessment is carried out. It does not mean that a face to face is routinely automatic upon receipt of the PIP2 as you stated.

It may appear that I have conradicted myself - I apologise. However, I did comply with the PIP rules - I sent two letters requesting a form PIP1 for which I am entitled to under the regulations. The DWP failed or lost those letters. The alternative at that time after the telephone call was to ask for a MR then if need be appeal that decision to close down the DLA. I had the evidence that both letters had been posted to the DWP within the time frame of one month by virtue of two Post Office proof of posting tickets. That thought filled me with horror considering what happened at my last Tribunal hearing. At the same time I checked with the 'expert website - Benefits & Work' to see what level of award I would get if I went through with the appeal. I managed to get 4 points for care and nothing for mobility.

So based on that evidence and the thought of another protracted fight with the DWP I decided not to bother and did not persue the claim any further.

It was not my fault that they lost both letters so yes. I hold the DWP accountable for what happened. 

If they had sent the PIP1, it would have been filled in and returned. I would have been none the wiser of what the website said as there would have been no need for me to search it out. I lost the opportunity to transfer to PIP through the DWP's muddled systems.

That's history now and nothing more can be done about it.

Well that is rather wierd then. I filled out an AA claim from and sent it off and received a letter back from them that all new claims were being held back owing to a possible change to AA. Further research told me that it was hopefully to close this year. This was confirmed to me by AgeUK who said as recently as a few weeks ago that new claims for AA are being taken by the DWP but that things may well change with the possible closure of Attendance Allowance with the funds being diverted to the LA. On that basis I was asked if I wanted to go ahead with the claim.

To me I couldn't see the point - all of the work in filling out the form, having number 17 face to face assessment only to find that the whole thing is being scrapped anyhow.

 

OK Les. Last word. I don’t know why I’m still arguing the point because the DWP figures on face to face assessments are widely available. They estimated that 70 percent of claimants would have a face to face, but acknowledge that currently approximately 98 percent of claimants are being invited to face to face assessments.  THAT IS NOT A LAST RESORT, IT IS THE NORM. When DLA was replaced by PIP it was partly because DLA was awarded in most cases without seeing the claimant.  This was what they wanted to stop, and the DWP themselves state that most claimants will have a face to face assessment. You insist on misinterpreting the assessors handbook.  The last resort refers to situations where there is excellent medical evidence provided but there are gaps in the information  which the assessor can only fill by assessing the claimant in person.  It does not, and has never meant that assessing claimants face to face should be a last resort. Most claimants WILL be seen at a face to face assessment – the figures speak to that fact - and I am trying to make sure people are properly prepared for that  – to suggest anything else on a site like this, where people are looking for proper guidance, is irresponsible.  

At no point did I ever suggest that a face to face assessment was automatic – whether or not this is carried out is decided on a case by case basis. What I said was that the DWP themselves had stated that most people would have a face to face unless the DWP could get a clear idea from the application form, of how their disability affected them, and were able to supply evidence to back it up.

There are no plans to scrap AA this year – the DWP are currently consulting on how best to proceed and they advise that no new plans are likely to come into effect before April 2018, so people are still able to claim AA.  I can only think that the people you’ve spoken to are confusing AA with DLA.  I think you can still make a claim for AA online – I’m almost sure this is how my relative did it, and this is only a few weeks ago.   You have nothing to lose by making a claim, and if it’s successful, you’ll be immune to any changes if and when it is eventually phased out. Hope this helps. Good luck.

Additional.  Have just checked and the DWP website section on attendance allowance was last updated on 27 July 2016.  You can still apply and you can download a claim form from the website - you can either fill it in online, then download and print it, ready to post, or you can download and print a blank form and fill it in by hand.  Go to Gov UK Attendance Allowance.  

Thanks.

Yes it is out for consultation, I am aware as I am a town councillor. My colleagues at both district and county level are wanting devolution to take place but only one one condition - that the funding from government (the AA budget) is not to be ring fenced.They actually want to add it to the budget for Social Care which means that Social Services will have a greater claim on the funds than will those who don't need that level of care ie the likes of the majority of current recipients of AA who already live independently in their own home. Our councils are hoping that this can happen sooner rather than later.

Hence by late 2016 - early 2017 at the latest.

And yes the government has promised that current claimants that have an award when this happens will be protected.

On that point it is all a question of will the councils play ball and not uphold that promise at some later date? There is thought that the current assessment process that is used by Social Services to decide the level of needs will be incorporated into these 'protected awards' - who knows - councillors are a funny breed!!

I would have thought that people who are living at home would also have a need, after all AA, like DLA and PIP is meant to cover some of the cost of living with a disability. These people and their relatives are already saving councils a fortune by not going into full time care.  And what would happen to carers allowance for anyone caring for someone at home ?  I'm in favour of ring fencing myself. Otherwise it all gets swallowed up, very few people benefit, and lots of people lose out.

In addition to my previous reply.  People who live at home and claim AA already have to pay for any care from the council, so how would that work under the new system if th e extra AA funds were not ring fenced.

Les.  Have a look at below info. Copied and pasted this from my local council website's guide on applying for PIP.  Makes interesting reading and confirms quite a lot of what I've said.

Who will be affected by this change?

This change applies to adults aged between 16 and 64.

Pensioners will continue to get either disability living allowance or attendance allowance.  Children will continue to receive disability living allowance until they turn 16 at which time they will have to apply for personal independence payments.

When is this changing?

From June 2013 all new claims for help with care or mobility needs have been for personal independence payments.

From October 2013, existing disability living allowance claimants who report a change in their condition have had to make an application for personal independence payments.  This will also apply to children reaching the age of 16.  Claimants who had a fixed period award ending after February 2014 also had to apply for personal independence payments.

Between October 2015 and December 2017, all remaining disability living allowance claimants will be invited to make a claim for personal independence payments.

What will be the amounts of the new personal independence payments?

There will be two rates for the daily living component and two rates for the mobility component.  The government has provisionally set the rates at:

Daily living enhanced rate = £79.15

Daily living standard rate = £53.00

Mobility enhanced rate = £55.25

Mobility standard rate = £21.00

However, these rates are likely to change year by year and have already changed since personal  independence payments were introduced in 2013.

How long will I have to wait to qualify for personal independence payment? 

If you want to claim personal independence payment for the first time there is a three month qualifying period (this is the period during which you have had a health condition or disability) and the needs arising from your condition or disability must be expected to last for a further nine months as well (we call this the "prospective test" to qualify for the new benefit. 

You will not necessarily have to wait three months, as the qualifying period starts from when your eligible needs arise and not from when you make a claim. 

For example, if you have had difficulty walking for three months or more when you apply for personal independence payment and the condition is expected to last a further nine months, you may be entitled to payment from the date of your claim. 

If you already receive DLA and apply for personal independence payment you will not have to meet the three month qualifying period but will have to meet the prospective test (that the need is expected to last for a further nine months). 

A person with a terminal illness will be fast tracked on to a guaranteed payment of the enhanced rate of the daily living component of personal independence payment without having to satisfy the qualifying period or the prospective test. They will also be able to apply for the mobility component and receive that immediately if they qualify. 

Will there be automatic entitlement to personal independence payment for people with certain conditions as there is with disability living allowance? 

No. Entitlement for the new benefit will be based on how someone's conditions or disabilities affect them. The benefit will go to those individuals whose impairments impact most on their ability to participate in society. 

The only way to accurately decide who should get the new benefit is to assess everyone individually, looking at their personal circumstances and any barriers they may face. This is because people's health conditions or disabilities can affect them in very different ways and some individuals have more than one health condition or disability. 

The assessment for personal independence payment will make greater use of evidence from the people who support the applicant (such as a GP, consultant or specialist nurse). 

I get DLA. Will I be entitled to personal independence payment? 

There is no automatic transfer from DLA to personal independence payment. If you are already getting DLA, and you are of an eligible age you will need to make a claim for the new benefit when invited to do so. 

When you make a claim to personal independence payment the DWP will explain what will happen throughout the assessment process, how and where it will take place, what you need to do and what help is available to support you through the process. 

If you satisfy the entitlement criteria for the new benefit, you will be awarded personal independence payment and your payment of DLA will stop. 

If you are assessed as not entitled to personal independence payment, or choose not to claim it, then your DLA will end.

I have a life or indefinite award period for DLA. Will I have to have an assessment even though my condition has not changed or is never going to change?

Yes.  You will still need to apply for personal independence payments.

I currently have a blue badge and a carer because of my DLA. Will personal independence payment provide the same "gateway" or "passport" to the additional help and support that DLA attracts? 

It is the DWP's intention that the existing passporting arrangements will be maintained wherever possible. 

If you have a carer, then being entitled to either rate of the daily living component of personal independence payment can help them qualify for carer's allowance. If your carer already receives carer's allowance they will continue to receive the benefit for as long as you continue to receive PIP. Carer's of young people aged below 16 will not be affected by these changes. 

Top of page

Local authorities will not have a say in whether existing claims are protected because this will be at government level. Check out the u gov website.

Hi, I agree it will be at government level.

However for the government to get councils onboard negotiations will have to go ahead.

You me and the rest of Britain know that councils are short on funding for Social Care. Limitations and rationing already is happening. Even today the figures for the average cost of a care home placement has gone over the £30,000pa barrier outside of London.

The reason for such a large increase is because councils/NHS are refusing the cover the full costs demanded by the homes. Consequently the losses incurred on council funded placements is being made up by large increases to privately funded individuals.

All councils would dearly love to get hold of the Attendance Allowance budget provided that there are no strings attached to it.

Otherwise if it is ringfenced to it's present format, no one will gain anything except the DWP who won't have the admin costs anymore - they will be another drain on council budgets - presumably Council Tax will have to go up to offset these 'forced on them' admin costs?

I know where my vote would go both at council level and as a CT payer.

I for one Pam think the information you have posted has been so helpful. Thanks for taking the time to do so x

My main concern is that elderly people  who get AA and can buy in home care with it will be the ones who lose out if the funding  is not ring fenced.  These people, supported by their relatives as main carers, are saving councils money by staying out of full time residential care.  what happens to them if the AA funding is not directly paid ?  I totally agree that councils would love to get their hands on AA funding because ot obviously would boost the care budget, but certainly with my own local council, they need to get their house in order with how they spend the money now, before grabbing at AA funds.  My late father in law was on AA and the family  rallied round to keep him in his own home and provide the support he needed. Without direct payment of AA and the carers allowance that goes with it, this would not have been possible.  Our council wanted a substantial contribution from his AA to provide what amounted to one hour of quite poor quality care per week, spread over 4 days.  This was inevitably provided by a private company via an overworked and poorly paid care worker who barely had time to make a simple sandwich at lunch time before moving on to her next client.  We eventually stepped in and employed a home help, who provided a few hours a week to clean and  tidy up, and prepare a lunch each day. This was a teemendous help ti the family members caring for him and for not much more in terms of cost, than the council were charging for a very minimal service.

?I'm really not decrying councils because i know they are being squeezed until the pips squeak. I just think that social care problems in this country are so deeply entrenched that simply devolving AA funding to plug the gap is not the answer and it will create more priblems than it solves.

Thanks for your kind comments.  we all need to support each other wherever we can.

My main concern is that elderly people  who get AA and can buy in home care with it will be the ones who lose out if the funding  is not ring fenced.

With a much larger budget for the councils to work with there would be no reason why care could not be provided in house via a system of 'home help'. They don't need to be qualified just simply helpers employed by the council. In that way no actual cash is paid over to the individual. I would also suggest that this 'cashless' system would save money. I agree there are claimants that do need physical help, yet there are others that currently claim AA and spend it in ways that is wasteful. How many times have I heard of people saying that they don't need help, they can cope on their own and use the money to pay for their garden to be looked after, the outside of their house to be repainted, the car needs two new tyres, or maybe one expensive £4500 three week cruise in the winter.

These people, supported by their relatives as main carers, are saving councils money by staying out of full time residential care.  what happens to them if the AA funding is not directly paid ? 

No change really, the family could still provide additional care on top of what the council offer. If they were eligible carers then Carers Allowance would still be paid by virtue of a Social Service decision that care/help is needed. In fact under UC, there is no need to have a 'passporting benefit' to claim CA.

I totally agree that councils would love to get their hands on AA funding because ot obviously would boost the care budget, but certainly with my own local council, they need to get their house in order with how they spend the money now, before grabbing at AA funds.

If that is the case, then you have every right to complain to your council and the eventual sanction every 5 years is to vote out those Councillors that you believe are not working hard enough.

My late father in law was on AA and the family  rallied round to keep him in his own home and provide the support he needed. Without direct payment of AA and the carers allowance that goes with it, this would not have been possible.  Our council wanted a substantial contribution from his AA to provide what amounted to one hour of quite poor quality care per week, spread over 4 days.  This was inevitably provided by a private company via an overworked and poorly paid care worker who barely had time to make a simple sandwich at lunch time before moving on to her next client.

As I have above, this would change if there was a larger budget to work with. What you are describing is the very reason that the AA budget should go to the provider of the service. You can't expect a council to provide a class 1 service and not get paid for it.

We eventually stepped in and employed a home help, who provided a few hours a week to clean and  tidy up, and prepare a lunch each day. This was a teemendous help ti the family members caring for him and for not much more in terms of cost, than the council were charging for a very minimal service.

?I'm really not decrying councils because i know they are being squeezed until the pips squeak. I just think that social care problems in this country are so deeply entrenched that simply devolving AA funding to plug the gap is not the answer and it will create more priblems than it solves.

I don't agree, councils need these extra funds if people want to have a service that is fit for purpose. Without these extra funds, the care being provided by the council can only get worse.

Finally someone in a care home today is costing the council approx £450 a week. The true cost is approx £600 a week.

It is clear that people in care homes that are currently paid for the by council must be getting a poorer service than those that are paying the full whack.

If councils were to top up the payments up to the full amount, don't you think that this would give those in a care home a better lifestyle and choice? That could only happen if they had access to the AA budget.

 

We're probably never going to see eye to eye on this.  AA was meant to contribute towards the cost of disability - buying in care is only one aspect of that.  I certainly don't believe that those people who are claiming it for genuine reasons of disability are wasting it.  My father in law was doubly incontinent and it cost a fortune in water and gas/electricity, not to mention specialist personal and bed padding, none of which was available free.  If AA were scrapped people like this would struggle and would probably end up in a care home because there would be no other way to manage.  Councils have nwcer had access to this type of funding and I don't see why we should start down this dangerous road now.  The ideal would bw to keep AA and for the government to stump up proper funding for social care instead of scrimping with this trade off.  And how long before some bright spark decided that DLA/PIP funding should go the same way.Living with GENUINE disability is an expensive business. We should keep support for it seperate from social care budgets or once again genuinely disabled people will lose out.

Unfortunately there is only one pot and it is an either/or decision.

Put it bluntly - the government are being held to ransome. It is either scrap AA as we know it and pass the money to the councils, OR keep AA as it is and keep councils short of the money desperately needed by Social Services.

You can't have both - there just isn't enough to go round.

As for wasting the awards - I can but give you two examples. The first is my father now passed on. He by virtue of Welfare Rights in Preston was awarded AA at the highest rate. OK yes he was 78 but he was far healthier than I was. His only problem medically was kidney problems. He could kneel and walk whereas I need something to hang on to and need my stick. Still he lasted until he was 89. He used the money to fund a gardner(he liked to keep it just so in memory of my mum). What was left was used for trips up and down the country.

Then there was his friend (they met at primary school and were friends for life). He saved his money up (approx £4000) and every February he and his wife went on a 2 week cruise to a warmer climate.

download a claim form from the website - you can either fill it in online, then download and print it, ready to post, or you can download and print a blank form and fill it in by hand.  Go to Gov UK Attendance Allowance.

Yesterday I took the plunge to apply for AA. There was no option to claim online only to print the form off (all 46 pages!!) and fill it in before posting to the DWP.

So I completed it before I went to bed and posted it off this morning.

If this benefit is dealt with in the same way as DLA was no doubt I will get called in for the 17th time for a face to face assessment - that will be fun and interesting to see how good the assessor is and whether like 85% of the previous face to face assessments this will be another version of Harry Potter !!

 

Les, I’m so pleased you decided to apply.  I hope it goes well for you and that they don’t put you through the mill.   I applied for AA about 4 weeks ago on behalf of my Mum who has early signs of dementia.  At the beginning of last week I had a phone call from the decision maker for her claim.  She had decided on middle rate care but was making sure I hadn’t under reported Mum’s condition before proceeding.  She was incredibly helpful and gave me information on how to apply for Mum’s pension credit (Mum didn’t qualify for this previously but apparently an award of AA increases the threshold and she now has entitlement) and also how to get myself made Mum’s appointee.  I was amazed when a couple of days later the award letter dropped through the door – Mum and I were checking her bank account the following day and the backdated award was already there. I didn’t send any medical evidence with the claim and only  gave her GP and OT contact details on the form.  Must admit I was gobsmacked that it was so quick and straightforward, as like you, I was expecting a lengthy process and thinking about  the possibility of an appeal. This is a world away from the situations reported here about DLA and PIP, and I’m now firmly of the opinion that they are only coming down hard on people of working age. I hope you find a similar situation and I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you.  Good luck and well done for taking the plunge.  Let me know how it goes.

I'm going to be really controversial here Les, and I'll probably bring a torrent of abuse down on my head, but I really think that if government severely reined in the amount spent on child benefit - limiting it to the first born child for example, there might be more funds for things like social care.  Having children is a choice - disability is not and neither is infirmity in old age.  I know this government have made some changes to child benefit but compared to the vicious way in which disabled people have been treated, it's nothing.  The only reason they haven't gone further is because it's a vote loser, and they think most disabled people don't vote Tory anyway, so they can pretty much treat us however they like.  Oh dear, wait for the storm !!

good luck Les!  You deserve it!

Controversial or not Pam, I'm with you 100% on that score...having children is a choice and it shouldn't be taken lightly. Why have children if you can't afford to support them yourself.DIsability and age infirmity is not a choice and is something more people face as our population ages. Before anyone asks, yes I have a child, one only because I felt that as a working parent it was a wise choice.

I have 2 children and I still agree with you Pam. So much money is spent on it 😐

I have four children and still agree with you Pam 

We have two children, both now grown up with children of their own.

I remember when my wife and I embarked on the idea of starting a family. We had bought our first home a couple of years earlier and spent weeks and weeks working out if we could afford them on my salary alone as it wasn't up for discussion - my wife wanted to be a stay at home mum permanently.

The answer was that we couldn't afford it just then. I was happy with my job and really didn't want more responsiblity that would come with more income. However it came down to change my job and then we can have a family. So I changed and the twin girls came along.

We planned also that my wife would be sterilised as she was to have a C section as two would be manageable, three or more would be unmanageable.

We have never asked of any financial support (other than the family allowance) for our family - it was all done on one wage.

Your reply illustrates why they need to do something about child benefit Les.  You and your wife obviously thought things through and lived within your means, making sensible measured decisions about how many children and when to have them.  People these days do not - how many Jeremy Kyle style stories have we heard about couples having hoardes of children they can't afford and expecting the tax payer to foot the bill - between this and housing benefit being paid to greedy landlords charging sky high rents, a fair chunk of the budget is not being well managed.  Yet the government think nothing of raiding funds meant to help disabled people.  If we have to make hard choices about disability benefits, why shouldn't we make them about things like child and housing benefit ?If people are capable of standing on their own twp feet they should be encouraged to do so - but they should be paid a fair wage for a fair days' work.  At the moment British employers won't pay a decent wage because they know that pathetically low wages will be topped up by Universal Credit, housing and child benefit.  I agree wholeheartedly with you when you say there is omay one pot and not enough to go around - I just have different ideas as to to who should make up the shortfall, and it shouldn't be from a wholesale raid on attendance allowance or any other disability benefit for that matter.  

Hi Pam - just adding a little to what you had said in the past about self assessing for PIP. I noticed this on another forum today:

 I think I looked at the PIP criteria and concluded I would not score enough points.

This related to someone who will be hit with the new cap from November. She says that she has a chronic long term condition and the reason she hasn't bothered doing much with PIP is because she self assessed herself! Seems to be quite a common theme as i have said in the past.

 

I do agree with you and the fact that the more children they have means that they get a payrise.

Shame that with a disability or illness that as things get worse people don't get an increase in the help they need - financially.

This is a 'chicken and the egg'  scenario. Employers should pay a decent wage but why should they when they know that the wage that they pay is topped up considerably by benefits.

Who will break first the DWP or the employers?

As for the disabled - I agree - they are the least likely to complain so will get hit the hardest.

Update:

I sent my AA claim form off about 10 days ago, and surprise I had a letter yesterday from ATOS?? telling me that a 'doctor' has been told to come to our home on Thursday 1pm to assess me. Well yes it may be the 18th time that I have had to have a face to face assessment for a benefit, but it is the FIRST time that they are coming to me!!

Funny really the letter tells me that I have to have 2 forms of ID - err my home who else do they expect to be there?

To be honest I am not at all concerned as I know what the result will be based on what has happened in the past.  The leaflet attached to the letter tells me not to make any special effort before and during the assessment they want to see me as on a nomal day.

If they even thought about getting a cup of tea and a piece of cake they would be seriously out of luck - I'm not predisposed to wanting to be too friendly with them!!

 

 

I've just had a thought - I understand that the Decision Maker does telephone the claimant to 'clarify' things prior to making an award after getting the assessors report.

I strongly refuse to discuss anything 'official' over the telephone with anybody - hence why the problem with PIP arose. What happens if I refuse to speak with the DWP - would they close down the claim due to non co-operation, or maybe only award the lower rate when the DWP where thinking about giving the jigher rate?

I prefer to have everything on paper - I don't mind by email, as there is a written record. 

 

I don't think they telephone everyone - it's only if they have any queries.  To reassure you, the decision maker for AA in my mum's case was much more compassionate than I've experienced before and went to pains to ensure that I had not omitted anything that would have resulted in a higher award, so hopefully you may have a better experience. If you prefer not to discuss the claim over the phone with the decision maker, I think you may be shooting yourself in the foot, so I would try to cooperate as far as possible.  Keep your own record of what was said during the conversation and ask for everything in writing.  Fingers and toes crossed for your success.

Don't offer any kind of refreshment unless you have someone with you who can make a cup of tea - and I strongly advise having someone present and taking notes if you can.  Also monitor any visits to the loo if they request them.

Thanks Pam, Ah I see now what you mean. As your mum didn't have a face to face (more on what happened yesterday with my face to face later on my own thread) the decision maker telephoned to cover points that should/would/might have been discussed had she had a face to face.

I understand what you mean about co-operating, but you can't really blame me having a negative opinion about the DWP considering my past history with them?

Hi Pam - I didn't and had no intention from the start of making him too comfortable. As for him looking around - he asked me if I could show him the upstairs bathroom which I refused and told him that if he was that desperate he could use the cloakroom by the front door.

I didn't have anyone with me - my wife did a disappearance to our daughter across the road for the duration. Not because she wanted to leave me on my own, but because she was worried how I would be with him whereupon she might have become defensive over me.

She is 75% Irish and if roused has a very sharp tongue!