PIP - I am confused??? help!

Thank you

That explains a little of what I thought.

It’s the only mobility part I want to appeal against as they are conflicting on what has been put on the report and the descriptor scoring, plus I know I should get something in the following a route/ journey due to my mental illness.

The only concern is that I don’t want to appeal and then my decision be taken off me altogether as well as going through the whole process and stress, it’s not good for my anxiety at all! My depression is really bad at the moment too.

I need honest advice of what you would do in my situation?

Regardless of the amount, if an award has not been made for the descriptors it should have been awarded for, then I'd say appeal. Just being satisfied with what you get because some other people who are probably entitled don't get anything is not really a reason for Donna to accept a lower amount than she entitled to. It's about what is right and fair and if she thinks the award is lower than it should be then that is sufficient reason to appeal. She really needs to see the report and decision letter before deciding. I can understand people who are awarded nothing being put off the process of appealing having already jumped through hoops for nothing but to suggest to someone else who has had an insufficient and wrong award that they should accept it and be grateful is not helping anyone. The DWP make enough wrong decisions so saying people should be grateful for what they got is playing straight into the hands of the DWP. There's already a large number of claimants who are so worn down that they cannot go through the procedure of appealing. The DWP bank on this.

Vicky

I think you have misread my post wrong, the £814 paid into our bank I would assume is a back payment for the 14 weeks I have waited and they have awarded me the LR of care, however I have not had any award letter as of yet.

I have just had the assessment letter as requested last week from DWP and the  descriptors just don’t justify to the statements she has written for each section especially the mobility part, that’s why I was asking of wether to appeal or not...

Yes some people don’t get awarded and I cannot comment on that, but I know how poorly I am and how it effects by day to day life and I know roughly what I should of been awarded and I don’t agree with the descriptors for the mobility side of things.

Unfortunately you can't just ask for one part of the award to be looked at again. When asking for the MR they will look at the whole award again NOT just part of it.

You say you score 4 points in moving around part, can stand and move 50 metres but no more than 200 metres? Are you claiming for physical health or just mental health?

Just re-read your first post again. All the points you scored for daily living tell me that you claim for physical health yes? This is because you scored the points for needing to use and aid or appliance.

You also say that you suffer from anxiety and depression? yet i don't see any points at all scored for this. The aids and appliance scoring is for physical health not mental health.  Did you explain fully how your mental health affects you as well as your physical health?

Hi Denise

I claimed for Fibromyalgia, anxiety and depression.

They concentrated on my fibromyalgia when asking me the questions in the assessment. My mental health only came into it when she asked about how I cope in social situations, in which I told her I do mix with other people or go out in places I don’t know as I get anxious and I always go out with my husband or someone I know well. I did it was not fair on not being bothered about how it effects me.

I just think the assessment was slightly different to what I told her, these were on the social situations and mobility part, the rest was all true and literally what we had discussed.

I don’t think she mentioned mental health issues, as she says she goes out and mixes with people

Vicky

Who are you referring to? 

I have not mentioned anything about going out with and mixing with people??? And I’ve just mentioned my mental health issues.

I meant to say I do mix with other people but only people I know and I don’t go to places I do not know.... sorry

You say you don't go out with anyone but your husband or someone you know well? do you ever go anywhere alone?  Did you have a home assessment or go to them? did someone go with you? 

What about the other PIP descriptors for mental health like engaging with others face to face, making budgeting decisions?

My concern is, you've only just scored 8 points, which is bang on Standard daily living. Any points lost would totally wipe out the award you already have, however it's rare for the decision to change at MR stage BUT it has been known to happen. People have gained and lost points at this stage.

Did you send evidence to support your claim for all of your conditions? or did you just concentrate on the physical conditions?

No one can tell you what to do, only you can decide this. How long has the HCP recommended the award is for? It should state a recommendation in the report.

All i can tell you is that i was in a very similar situation to you when i first applied for PIP. 4 years or so ago i was awarded Standard for both and i claim for physical health and not mental health. I scored 10 points at the time for mobility and was very angry i lost those 2 points. I knew i couldn't walk as far as she said i could but after a long hard think about decided that what i'd already had was too much to lose, so i didn't ask for the MR. This is me and you're not me. My award at the time was for 3 years, review at 2 years. Remember reviews are done 1 year before the award is due to end.

A PIP award can increase your entitlement to means tested benefits, if you claim any...do you? or do you work?

It's a risk asking for the MR but if that decision stays the same there's NO risk taking it to Tribunal. A Tribunal MUST warn a claimant if they plan on lowering or removing an existing award. This then gives the claimant the opportunity to cancel the Tribunal, keeping the award they already have.

It's a long process but definitely a decision that only you can make. Hope this helps.

Thank you vicky but i think it's better if Donna answers my questions rather than you. After all it's Donna's claim and not yours. The only person that knows Donna here, is herself. Thank you though.

I thought this was an open forum, not just a select few

I never said it was anything different, thank you but as it's Donna's PIP claim, only she knows herself not anyone else. I don't know how you can possibly answer her questions for her. I know i possibly couldn't.

Donna you state quite clearly that you do mix with people and go out

Denise

i only suggested that she do nothing as she said she got more money than she thought she would get.

?“thank you Vicky, but I think it’s better Donna answers my questions rather than you. It’s donnas claim not yours”

?Fair enough, you then said “I don’t know how you can possibly answer her questions for her. I know I possibly couldn’t”

Sorry, but you’ve said it’s better if Donna answers your questions and not mine, but then you say you couldn’t possibly answer her questions.

Either you can answer her questions or you can’t.

 

You say you don't go out with anyone but your husband or someone you know well? do you ever go anywhere alone?  Did you have a home assessment or go to them? did someone go with you? 

Answer to this is that is correct I never go out with people apart from my husband or people I know like my best friend. I will go out alone to the local shops, but not in social situations. My assessment was done at home, because of my anxiety and not being able to travel on my own to somewhere I don’t know or too far. My MIL was with me at my home assessment for support as I was very poorly that day.

What about the other PIP descriptors for mental health like engaging with others face to face, making budgeting decisions?

Well I don’t engage well with others face to face, however on the report she stated I maintained good eye contact and followed the whole process well, in which I scored nothing.

Did you send evidence to support your claim for all of your conditions? or did you just concentrate on the physical conditions?

Yes I did I send a doctors report on my fibromyalgia and it states how the condition effects me. I also sent in diagnoses letters and they requested my doctors file for my depression and anxiety.

No one can tell you what to do, only you can decide this. How long has the HCP recommended the award is for? It should state a recommendation in the report.

It states for this to be reviewed in 2 years time.

A PIP award can increase your entitlement to means tested benefits, if you claim any...do you? or do you work?

I work part time and don’t claim anything else.

I believe it’s a very complex difficult system we have here for PIP, how can they take away points for an award that has already been awarded lol 😂 I might go to the citizens advice and see if I can get help from them, then they can read through it all and give me a clear understanding.

Thanks for answering those questions. Depending on the working you do, it may go against you for the mental health part if the work you do contradicts the reasons for your claim.

I think it's a good idea going to CAB for further help. It's extremely difficult to advise anyone when you don't know exactly how their conditions affect them. The reason they can take points away at MR stage is because a different decision maker will look at your file/report and make another decision from there.

Good luck, what ever you decide to do.

Please remember the 28 day rule from the date of the decision. I would ring your local CAB today to make an appointment, they're often very busy and mostly people have to wait weeks for an appointment.

“the reason they can take points away at MR stage is because a different decision maker will look at your file/report and make another decision from there”

?Knowing of two people where this has happened is the reason I suggested doing nothing. Particularly when she’s received more than she thought she was entitled to and also is able to work.

As you’ve told me not to answer donnas questions and only you can answer her, I’ll leave it there.

Finally, as I’ve already said, this is an open forum and as such, different people will have different views and experiences. I find it extremely insulting to be told not to comment as it’s not my claim. Particularly when you’ve said someone else may look and take points away and end up with nothing

It seemed like you were questioning what Donna had stated, which was why i said what i said. Text speak is often very difficult to read, unlike voice speak. For this reason i'm sorry i didn't mean anything by it. Of course this is an open forum and anyone can post at anytime.

In her first post it seemed to me like Donna thought she should have received more because she lost points on following and planning a journey descriptor. Now we know she works, this could change things totally because working can go against you depending on the reasons for your claim and the work you do.

Again i'm sorry for the confusion. I hope we can put this behind us and move forward now.

Denise

No problem, I was probably a bit ‘blunt’, I’m not known for my tact. I was genuinely trying to understand Donnas post. I wasn’t doubting Donna, I just couldn’t understand why she would want to appeal or question why she got £814 when she thought she should get £802!! 

Yes the fact she works could quite easily go against her as it sort of contradicts things. She did say she mixes with other people, and goes out, so she’s not unable to leave her house due to anxiety.

You can’t really say anxiety and depression in the mental health section stop you from doing things and you are housebound. Then say I go to work.

Mental Health is a complex subject, you can see a broken leg/arm, mental health isn’t black and white or clear cut. However to say you can’t go out, but you can go to work doesn’t make sense.

Thanks for accepting my apology! Like i said text speak is so difficult to read sometimes. I'm glad we can now move forward on this understanding.

I totally agree with everything you say here. Mental health is very complex and without knowing exactly how it affects someone it's very difficult to give advice, it's the same with every condition really.  I totally understand mental health because my daughter suffers with it really badly.

I think Donna going to CAB or the likes is a good idea but she really should be careful when asking for the MR. In some cases it could be better to take what you have but we can't advise that because we don't know the full circumstances. x

Jackie

Donna herself said she’d received more than she thought

Donna herself said she received more money than she thought. Based on that fact, I said I wouldn’t appeal. Whose to say that someone else reviewing her claim makes a different decision and she ends up loosing.

?“people should be grateful for what they’ve got”

I would love to know where I said that.

Suggest you read my post again. By querying why she’s been paid more than she thought, could result in her loosing.

 

Jackie

Suggest you read Denise’s post. Basically she is saying more or less what I said.

”in some cases it may be better to take what you have”

Vicky

I think you are being rude and have not understood what I have said. I am not saying I am housebound at all, I’ve never said those words, read back on my posts please. 

I clearly stated that “dont mix with other people or go out in places I don’t know as I get anxious and I always go out with my husband or someone I know well e.g my best friend etc...”

Just because I go to work doesn’t mean I am sociable and also how does going to work got to do with my mental health problems??? People go to work and suffer with mental health problems. I go to work with my husband as he works at the same place and I have my own office as I am office based job and work part time.

I haven’t said anywhere that I can’t go out completely whatsoever and never have I mentioned I am housebound!!!

Can I say are you jealous at the fact I’ve been awarded what I’ve been awarded and still work? People with disabilities work, it’s nothing to do with that as it’s how it effects your daily living and believe me going to work is not by choice, I need to go earn a living and for my own sanity believe or not.

We will end this silly argument here!

The following and planning journey descriptors are very complex. The reason i suggested contacting your local CAB is because you can explain to them exactly how your mental health affects you. This is really important because like i previously said, we can't comment on that because we don't know the exact details. This next part is copied and pasted and explains descriptor D in following and planning a journey.

Descriptor D (10 points): Cannot follow the route of an unfamiliar journey without another person, assistance dog or orientation aid.

‘Follow the route” means make one’s way along a route to a destination. This involves more than just navigation of the route; it also includes making your way along the route reliably. Safety should be considered in respect of risks that relate to making ones’ way along a route (for example, tendency to wander into the road, inability to safely cross a road or risk of self-harm due to overwhelming psychological distress caused). For example, a claimant with a severe visual or profound hearing impairment may be at a substantial risk from traffic when crossing a road.

This descriptor is most likely to apply to claimants with cognitive, sensory or developmental impairments, or a mental health condition that results in overwhelming psychological distress, who cannot, due to their impairment, work out where to go, follow directions, follow a journey safely or deal with minor unexpected changes in their journey when it is unfamiliar. A claimant who suffers overwhelming psychological distress whilst on the unfamiliar journey and who needs to be accompanied to overcome the overwhelming psychological distress may satisfy descriptor 1d.

A person should only be considered able to follow an unfamiliar journey if they would be capable of using public transport – the assessment of which should focus on ability rather than choice.

The route has already been planned. Any significant diversions from that route are therefore irrelevant – it is no longer the planned route. However, making one’s way around road works, or a change of train platform (i.e. minor diversions) are part of being able to follow the route of a journey. For example a profoundly deaf person may need a person to accompany them to relay information, such as changes to a journey, due to minor disruptions.

The descriptor refers to “an unfamiliar journey” rather than “any unfamiliar journey”. Accordingly, claimants can satisfy the descriptor by showing that they typically need to be accompanied by another person or an assistance dog or to use an orientation aid on the majority of days when undertaking unfamiliar journeys (it’s not necessary to show that they need such support for every possible unfamiliar journey on most days).

Orientation aids are specialist aids. Ordinary satellite navigation systems such as those found in mobile phones do not count as specialist. Maps or lists of directions do not count as specialist. A long cane (as used by person with sight impairment) is an example of a specialist orientation aid (NB – a symbol cane, which is used to signal to others the person has some sight impairment, is not an orientation aid as it does not actually help the person orient themselves).

Hope this helps. PIP is a minefield and some descriptors are more complex than others, following and planning a journey is definitely one of them.

This daily living PIP award means that you're entitled to claim the disability element of working tax credits, providing you work at least 16 hours per week. I don't know your circumstances, or whether you claim this or not just thought it was worth mentioning. If you don't claim WTC though and your area is a full Universal Credit area then you won't be able to start a claim for WTC. Benefits = complicated.

Donna in a previous post you said “I TOLD HER I DO MIX WITH OTHER PEOPLE”

You also said “I WILL GO OUT ALONE TO THE LOCAL SHOPS

?I apologise for using the word housebound and you are right in that you’ve never used the word‘HOUSEBOUND’

In answer to your question, I’m not in the least bit jealous of your award. I’m a social worker dealing with service users who have mental health issues.

The only reason I mentioned work is because I’m aware that going to work may, as Denise said may count against you.

I am certainly not saying that I agree with this situation where people struggle to go to work, then get penalised financially.

Of course I am aware that people with disabilities work, as do people with mental health issues. Physical disabilities are easier to explain than mental health disabilities. You can see a broken leg/arm etc, it’s obvious, non negotiable. 

Mental health, on the other hand is far more difficult to explain and deal with. There’s really no right or wrong, black or white. Personally I believe that there are a lot of people in the workplace who definitely shouldn’t be working, which more often than not makes their condition a lot worse

Donna did say that she had got about £12 more than she calculated 14 weeks a standard rate for daily living. She did not mean that she had been awarded for daily living when she didn't expect to be. She obviously was trying to figure out why she had been sent £12 more than her calculation. This is probably due to the fact that pip rates for all descriptors went up in April so the £12 discrepancy is probably because of that coupled with the fact that it maybe 14 weeks and one or two days. She was not implying that she had received significantly more but only that it didn't work out at exactly 14 weeks. She clearly knew she had been awarded pip daily living standard rate. Incidentally,had she not have got daily living standard rate then she would have got nothing since there is not a lesser payment for daily living. So the payment which she calculated to be more than 14 weeks is insignificant and cannot be classed as her receiving ' more than she expected.' I don't think, on reading her post again, she thought anything else. I think you've probably misunderstood her

Your comment to Donna suggesting she do nothing as lots of people don't get anything and questioning why she should want to appeal because she got more than she thought clearly implies that she should be thankful that she got anything at all, let alone 'more than she expected' (although she didn't!). I therefore stick by what I said originally. Maybe, if you were to read your post again, you would see it how I saw it.

I still stand by what I've said regarding appealing. If a wrong decision has been made and Donna is aware that the MR could result in a lesser payment and she feels strongly enough about it, she should appeal. You say you know a couple of people who's payments have been reduced, I actually applied for MR myself not really knowing the risks fully, I sent no additional information and a one line note saying why I thought the decision was wrong. Had been awarded 8 points for both daily living and mobility and this was increased on MR to enhanced mobility and points for daily living increased from 8 to 10. I still think this is wrong! I know my limitations and on principle I have decided to appeal. I realise not everyone has the motivation to jump through the hoops that the DWP make us jump through but I am a great believer in doing what it takes to right a wrong if you possibly can. Most appeals are won at tribunal!! The DWP deliberately under score people who are already vulnerable in the expectation that they will have been so worn down by the process that they will not have the strength to go through the appeal process.

I wish Donna all the best and hope she gets her points increased.

Thank you Jackie

You know what I mean and get what I was trying to say.

Though after all these comments I am confused even more. I think I will talk to CAB and see what they think 

Thank you for all your advice and most of all understanding someone who is has a disability where it effects my memory from time to time x

I don’t need to read my post again as I too stand by what I said. If you want to read something else into my comments, then go ahead.

I do know several people who have lost an appeal due to another person looking at their claim. If you read Denise’s post, she’s saying the same thing as me.

I was not saying she should be grateful at all. If Donna wants to appeal over £12 it’s up to her if she wants to risk losing her claim.

To be honest, I am not really bothered what she does. Neither am I concerned on how you want to twist what I said.

Donna, herself said she suffers from anxiety and doesn’t go out. Then says she goes to the local shops on her own. I would have thought that giving yourself extra stress and also risk losing her claim would only make her more anxious.

I know, not ‘say’ that several of my service users have lost out by appealing and the stress and anxiety has made their condition worse.

At the end of the day, it’s Donnas claim, not yours

 

I totally understand where you're coming from. I also totally understand everything about mental health. My daughter suffers with this and has 100% one 2 one support at college and also has a PA support worker and a social worker (at home) she does live with me. She's only ever been out once on her own in her whole life and she'll be 18 in 6 months or so. I also understand that mental health can affect people in many many different ways, which i why i advised Donna to speak to her local CAB.

The following and planning a journey part of PIP is so complex there's people that don't understand what it means and i'm not saying for 1 minute that Donna won't gain the points for this. She may well gain some points, who knows, i'm not a decision maker, or an assessment provider.

When i first read Donna's post i personally didn't think she meant anything about the difference in the back pay. Back pay totally depends how the DWP worked it out and there was also a slight increase in April this year so it could have been that.

I understood it to say that Donna wasn't happy with the mobility points that she scored, saying there's some confusion with what's written and the points that weren't scored. PIP is all about how your condition affects you 50% of the time and not all of the time, so DWP should take this into consideration too however that's not always the case.

Like i stated multiple times through out this thread they will look at the whole award again and not just the mobility part. With only just scoring 8 points in the daily living part there's more of a risk. It's not for me to tell anyone that they shouldn't continue to fight for what they think they should be awarded but people do need to think carefully and look deeper into the descriptors before doing so.

I do though think it's wrong that we continue to argue through out this thread because it's not nice for other members to read. After all, we are here to advise others and not to argue.

I think we should let Donna decide what she wants to do and leave it at that.

Donna, good luck and please do come back and let us know what you've decided. If you need any further help please do ask and i'll do my best to help, just like i've done to many other people here.

Totally agree this is ridiculous. It's not helping Donna and I understand why she is more confused than when she started.

At the end of the day, the £12 overpayment, as myself, Donna and you have acknowledged is insignificant.

Donna should decide what the best next course of action is for her.

I hope she gets it sorted and gets the award she entitled to. I hope too that she will ignore the silliness that her question generated through no fault of her own...

Vickylou. Donna is not appealing about £12. !!! You have totally missed the point.

Anyway, all that's happened is Donna is now understandably more confused than she was at the start.

I personally think it best if we wish her the best for whatever decision she makes regarding appealing, not £12, but the points she has not been awarded.

I hope she's had some good advice and is able to move on to make her own decision.

Hi Donna. Thank you for that. Your original post was very clear and I'm not sure how it has been so badly misinterpreted.

I can totally understand why you are more confused now than you were at the outset.

I think, as you suggest, an appointment with the CAB would clarify things for you regarding whether to appeal. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the very best and I really hope you get what you're entitled to. As I said in a previous post, I'm a real believer in righting wrongs and you know your own condition better than anybody and the CAB will be able to guide you. I also fully understand that not everyone is able to take the extra stress of going through the tribunal process.

Sorry for all this confusion. X

One thing I forgot to say Donna is if you decide to go down the MR/ appeal route and you cannot get an appointment with your CAB within the 28 days that the DWP give you to start the process, You should phone the DWP to let them know that you intend to request MR but your appointment with the CAB is not until......... I was told that the DWP are pretty strict on timescales but I was in exactly this position. I telephoned them and they allowed extra time. I think, if people are polite and they can help, they will...(mostly.!) Obviously, they can refuse but I honestly cannot see any point in that and as I say, I requested extra time and they allowed it. Worth knowing I think. X

They will do this as strictly speaking you do in fact have 13 months to appeal, with good reason of course. The only problem with doing this is once a claimant rings DWP and mentions he word MR then the DWP have been known not to wait for a letter or further evidence and just proceed with the MR regardless. I can't tell you the amount of times this happened. The best thing Donna can do is ring her local CAB ASAP or any other disability advice centre near her.

Including me! Thank you Denise.