Selincro has reduced my drinking but ..................!

Hello, It seems that some people just have really bad experiences with Selincro while others sail through without any at all.  I must stress however that I had bad sideffects for the first fews days maybe for aabout 5 -7 days. They did however subside over that period and it really is something you have to get through. I am retired now so I didn't have to go to work so I would think with people like us it may be best to take a week off work if side effects are bad. ( that  need not work for you however ) It will be an individual thing for different people to consider. I have to say that I was usually okay the follwoing day it was the first few hours that was bad for me. I didn't drink for the first 3 - 4 days because I felt unwell but after that I was fine.  As you know the more sucessfull I was with reducing my drinking and the less I needed Selincro the side effects returned at those times I took the tablet. As you I felt I could not continue unless I stopped drinking all together ( abstain  )

However that was never my goal.

I did get some Naltrexone from a recommended source ( you have to be very carefull and I will message you about that ) The side effects from Naltrexone were nothing compared to Selincro. 

As for splitting the Selincro tablets and putting them in a capsule, i am not sure about that but I think there maybe an absortion issue as well as an irritation one to consider. 

As for me I stopped Selincro mid December. I have drank unprotected since but at a much less amount than before I started on the Selincro journey. I am havinga drink 2 or 3 times a week but well below the old government recommended levels and often within the new recommendations. I do have the Natrexone to fall back on if things slip which would give me time to set the ball rolling with a consultant and my GP.   At the moment though I feel in control of things. I maybe one of the lucky ones , perhaps I have been able to break the habit before my dependancy became too great.  Time will tell. 

Hi rayboy

I started taking Selincro just before Christmas, I bought it online and have not consulted my doctor, had the usual side effects initially but got over them and have had no problems since.

I travel a lot, doing trade shows,visiting overseas customers and the like, so drinking is a given on these trips so I tend to take a pill every day whilst travelling and on holiday.

My drinking has drimatically dropped and my craving to carry on drinking when I have obviously had enough has gone.

Sometimes I take a pill and only have one drink that day and I have often wondered could I have done that without the pill, as I know it is effecting me in other ways, my libido is less and my general sense of enjoyment when drinking is lacking, which I put down to the pill.

Having said that I would not want to go back to the way I was, terrible hangovers, looking like death warmed up and on some occasions coughing and gagging due to too much alcohol the night before, not to mention the sleepless nights, shakes, cold sweats and the all consuming guilt.

I am wondering if the switch has clicked over and I could try moderate drinking without the pill.........

Moderate drinking without the pill is always a tough one to call.  I made the decision myself that the temporary annoyance of taking the pill was very minor compared to where I was when I began.  Like you, I NEVER want to go back and, for me personally, it isn't worth the risk.

What the Selincro has done is to help your brain realise that drinking is no longer providing the reward it once did - it unlearned the previously learned behaviour.

All indications seem to indicate that a once previously learned behavour is easy to relearn.  When you brain starts getting the reward (endorphins) from the drinking again, it will most likely relearn, the cravings will return, the control will be lost and you are back on the train again.

This is what Dr Sinclair, who discovered the method of endorphin blockage to help recovery from AUD, found.  It is also what is commonly noticed on forums relating to this method.  People who have tried to drink moderately without the medication all seem to advise against it.  Some who previously binged lost control almost immedaitely, and those who drank regularly found that the control was lost over a period of time.

In addition, you are only a few months into the method.  If you are still having any cravings whatsoever, then the pharmacalogical extinction of those cravings has not yet happened in full.  If this is you, then this is absolutely NOT the time to think about potentionally drinking without the tablet.  At least wait until you are absolutely and completely craving free.

Hello Sil,   I don't want to encourage people to stop taking the pill if you can take it without bad side effects. I understand what you mean about your general sense of enjoyment of drinking is lacking and also when taking the Pill everyday when I was on holiday I felt 'flat'  . However, once I had been on the Selincro  a while I felt no need to take the tablet everyday as I felt I could manage without a drink. I was only taking it 2 -3 times a week. In fact I went a month without a drink but that was my GP's request. Still I managed it without a great deal.  Are you at that stage when you can go without alcohol and have several days alcohol free a week ?  If not I wonder if you have reached pharmacological extinction.   I think I would recommend speaking to Paul Turner about that. I know he will not recommend stopping taking the Selincro. He may suggest you change to Naltrexone and as you are buying Selincro you will find Naltrexone is a load cheaper to purchase.

I don't know the amount you were drinking in the past or what your dependancy was then. In my case I was having at least a bottle of red each night but quite often other drinks as well if socialising. Averaging 70 -100 units per week.   I rarely had hangovers or felt unwell. I never had physical withdrawals or a need to have a drink when I woke up or other times during the day. It was just a habbit that I drifted into in an evening.   If I managed to find something else to do or something cropped up that prevented me from having a drink then I was okay with that. I would maybe have a drink when I got home but I didn't try and drink what I missed out on. So where I admit I must have had a mild dependancy I wonder if it was more habitual. 

I can only do what I think is right for me. I do know that if I did not get the side effects back as I needed the selincro less , I would have carried on with it.  Good luck with what ever you decide to do, please keep us informed.

Ray

I should add that it was never my goal to become abstinent . Although I do think if that is what I wanted to achieve I could have done it on Selincro. 

Ray

Hi Ray

Thanks for replying

My problem was and maybe still is, is that once I start I cant stop.

Usually I can manage not drink Monday to Thursday, the get on it on a Friday which would normally be 3 or 4 pints beer or cider followed by 2-3 bottles of wine, which would mean I would have couple of liveners on Saturday morning leading to a boozie day, with the idea of keeping off it on Sunday so as to be semi reasonable for work on Monday, to the most part this worked.

However when attending trade shows and going on other business trips this all went out of the window and it was drinks every day, although I could manage to control it somewhat and conceal my hangovers.

Last Friday I planned to watch some sport on the TV and knowing I  would have a drink took a pill, it took me over an hour to drink a can of cider and I didnt fancy another, I did have a glass of wine a couple of hours later and again took an age drinking it, no desire for another. It was then I wondered if I really needed the pills, and what would my reaction have been if I had not taken one.

I am in a very fortunate position that the cost of Selincro is not prohibitive however due to my liver condition my doctor will not prescribe Statins to me, so I am loathed to try Naltrexone which I beleive is tougher on the liver, so I think I will stick with Selincro for the time being.

I, like you, never wanted total abstinence, just to able to go out to the pub, drink normally and go home without the need to stop off on route for some take aways which meant continuing drinking until falling asleep (passing out) on the sofa.  

I must admit I am in a much happier place than I was 4 -5 months ago as I feel as I have some control, albeit with the help of Selincro, just wondering if I could do it on my own..........

 

Hi Sil99,

I came across this today from Dr Roy Eskapa who wrote the book The Cure For Alcoholism which was based on Dr Sinclair's research.  I thought in view of your current wonderings, it would be useful information for you.

Q: Can I become re-addicted if I stop taking my medication? If so, how long would it take?

A: If you are not drinking and you stop taking your medication, you will not become re-addicted. In fact, you should not take your medication when you are not drinking. But, you most certainly can become re-addicted if you ignore the Golden Rule and drink without taking your medication. If you are addicted to alcohol, it is because you have inherited the genes for alcoholism and also because you have practiced drinking over many occasions. The Sinclair Method does not alter your genetic code. Thus, you will become addicted again if you drink without taking the medication. This will not happen overnight – much like an eighteen-year-old who does not become an instant alcoholic simply by walking into a pub and having a few drinks. Becoming addicted to alcohol takes time. But since you have already learned to drink excessively, crave alcohol, and drink over the weekly safety limits, you will easily relearn your drinking pattern within 3 to 6 months.

It is well established that extinguished behaviors are relearned more rapidly than they were learned the first time round. The three year Finnish follow-up study did in fact show that patients who stopped taking naltrexone before drinking had indeed increased their craving and drinking, and the majority of these were back at the high levels they had been before treatment – the only difference being that their liver function had improves as a result of the pause in drinking.

Where is that from Joanna? It may be worth pointing our clients towards that, if it is part of a web page. I tried searching a block of text from it and didn't find it. Could you send me a link by private message if you have one?

Thanks

Paul, it's part of a Q&A that Roy sent me that was not included in the book for some reason - when he sent it to me a while ago, he called it a 'missing' chapter.

I will copy it all onto a word document and email it over to you later today as it is quite lengthy...

Hi Joanne, that just confirms what you and Paul have been saying since I joined this forum so it is good to see it from Dr Eskapa. I guess I will find out if I fit into the majory or the minority. It is now two months since I commenced having unprotected intake of alcohol ( apart from three days testing Naltrexone )  Again , I just want to say I DO NOT recommend doing so . This is something I felt I had to do due to side effects from Nalmefene and the requirement to take analgesics I cannot take with either Nalmafene or Naltrexone. 

In my case to date I continue to do well, so far. In fact, this week I have only had 1.5 glasses of wine since last Saturday. What is really good about that is that the half a glass resulted from being all that remained in a bottle. Now previously I would have just cracked open another bottle of wine. Now it just didn't bother me and I had a cup of tea. 

Yes it is early days still to say if I will return to previous regular drinking but I wanted to ask a question. Is it possible not to carry the alcoholic genes and still get into a hablit of drinking regularly and developing a mild dependancy. Once the habit is broken it becomes more a matter of will power and lifestyle change. Has there been any research on this?

Thank you Joanna

Not sure if Paul knows of any research in this area, but I do not.

I think the main thing for you is to know all the options and all the potential warning signs.  That way, you will hopefully be able to keep one eye on your reactions etc.

When taking naltrexone or nalmefene, the pathways in the brain get stronger as they try (unsuccessfully) to overcome the endorphin blockage.  So, with much stronger pathways the rush from the alcohol is stronger and when re-learned, it is harder to break again as it has more of a control and cravings are stronger.  The brain will fight even harder to get the rush as it knows it might get it if it really craves hard.

This may explain why people seem to end up drinking more than they were prior to TSM treatment.

And also, each subsequent TSM treatment may take longer to reach extinction - there is no guarantee it will work a second or third or fourth time.  Dr Eskapa had someone for whom TSM worked brilliantly.  Over time he decided to try some controlled drinking without the medication, eventually got into a mess with it, but crucially TSM just did not work for him on the second time around.  It simply didn't work :-(

There are a number of issues involved. Firstly, Rayboy, this is from my contact with people who drink excessively and not from any published research....

People have varying degrees of dependence on alcohol. You get those who say, on Facebook 'oh I can't wait for the end of work when I can have a glass of wine.' This comes from people who don't have a serious alcohol problem, but the idea of not getting that glass of wine is a problem to them. Then you get people who will have a drink because everyone else is but wouldn't care otherwise. You get people like me who can have a diet coke because they are driving and don't care at all that everybody else is drinking and they can't, they just enjoy the atmosphere and only drink occasionally home and that is purely for the taste and not the effect.

Then, of course, you get those who get into serious difficulty with alcohol.

So it isn't as straightforward as two types of people, those who get in a terrible mess and those who have no issue with alcohol at all. There are many degrees of 'dependence.'

I agree with Joanna about the risks of drinking without protection. This is why other methods of treatment have less than 10% success rate and TSM has a published 78% success rate.

You need to be really careful, Rayboy.

 

Thanks Paul and I do take that on board. As I have said previously, if I could have continued on Nalmefene I would have done so. I will keep you all informed on how I continue to do. 

Hi Joanna

Thank you for both your inputs.

The "genetic" angle is interesting and could explain a lot.

My initial resistance to taking a pill is when I know I am only going to have one or two without 2 hours notice, up until now I take one as soon as I realise a drink is in the offing. Usually, I would think, I have finished drinking before the pill has had time to kick in.

It is on these occasions I wondered if any harm could be done without taking the pill.

It is not the fact of taking the pill that is in question, it is the effectiveness of it in these circumstances.

I am totally on board with taking a pill when going on any sort of pre planned social event that will involve alcohol, or even if I think I am going to have a drink later in the day.

I am not a rebel trying to buck the system, this is the best thing that has happened to me in a long time and I have no intention of going backwards just to show how clever I thought I was. I realise this is a life long regime and I have no problem with it.

So, as long a taking a pill without notice is more advisable than not taking one at all that is what I will do.

Thank you for continued support and guidance.

Cheers