Should I have a prostate biopsy?

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Introduction

I’m 70 and have a PSA which was at 4.6 when I was 66, and while it has been regularly monitored over the past 18 months or so has been moving up and down between 6 and 7.  My doctor thought that I should be referred and I have had two hpital appointments, but I have so far decided against having a prostate biopsy, though it is obvious that my local hospital’s oncology department would like me to have one.  The health worker I saw at my first hospital appointment was happy to discuss the issue with me, but I suspect the consultant I just saw probably thought I should stop wasting his time and get booked in for a biopsy without further delay. 

I have received information from those two appointments, but I have obtained much more information from online research.  Based on studying a number of online medical reports over the period 2008 – 2014, it is evident that there is increasing prejudice, at least in the US and Australia, against the use of prostate biopsies.  The primary reasons for this seem to be an increasing risk of serious infections from the most common type of biopsy, a growing recognition (though this may be controversial) that psa screening and biopsies are ineffective in reducing the incidence of terminal prostate cancer, and that screening and biopsies contribute to massive ‘over treatment’ of prostate cancers

 

Summary of Statistics (some of which may be controversial but all of which are based on (my interpretation of) studies published in urological journals, research reviews and conference speeches by leading urologists).

Of every 100 men who have a prostate biopsy:

·         97 didn’t need it (that is, they don’t have a prostate cancer requiring treatment)

·         6 will get a serious infection as a result (a figure which has doubled in recent years), which will cause them to be hospitalised, and from which a very occasional man will die, while others (we don’t know how many) will have persistent painful side effects

·         between 17 and 22 will be offered treatment that they don’t need, as a result of which about 25% of men in their 70s will become incontinent or impotent.

 

The Perceived Indicators for Biopsy

Primarily a raised psa; a psa which has increased rapidly over a fairly short period, typically a year; smoking; family history of prostate cancer; age (considered with the other factors).  I have a raised psa, but it’s not dramatically high – it’s been between 6 and 7 over the past 1 ½ years, and it has not increased dramatically – it was 4.6 five years ago.  I do smoke, and I am 70, but I am generally in good health, and there is no history of prostate cancer in my family that I know of.

 

Statistics Based on Recent Urological Papers

Of every 100 men who have a biopsy, between 75 and 80 have no cancerous cells and didn’t need the procedure; 20 to 25 will have cancerous cells found on biopsy BUT a large percentage of these men will have a tumour which develops very slowly, will not be terminal and doesn’t really need any treatment.  Only a small percentage will have an aggressive tumour requiring immediate intervention; the Harvard School of Public Health, in a 2014 paper, put this percentage at 10 – 15%, or 3 men out of the 100. 

This means only 3 out of every 100 men who have a biopsy really needed it.  And there are two other real concerns.

1.       The one certainty with prostate biopsies is that 100% of the men who have them will have ‘side effects’.  Some will be shortlived and not really a problem, but some will be painful and longer lasting, and some men, currently about 6 out of the 100, will be hospitalised with serious infections, and the very occasional one will die.  There are no statistics for the number of men receiving treatment for post-biopsy infections at doctors’ surgeries.  I don’t necessarily see this as a reason not to have a biopsy, because obviously if you really need a biopsy to diagnose a terminal cancer then it’s worth putting up with the side effects.  But do you really need it?

2.       Most worryingly, doctors apparently can’t tell from the biopsy result whether cancerous cells denote an aggressive tumour which requires immediate treatment, or a slow developing tumour which probably does not need any treatment.  As a result, as I understand it, all patients with cancerous cells may generally be assumed to need immediate treatment, such as hormone replacement, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, even though 85-90% of them don’t need any treatment.  Research papers suggest that in men in their 70s, 25% who have this treatment will become incontinent or impotent as a result.  Many of these men will suffer these consequences despite the fact that they didn’t ever need the treatment they were subjected to.

 

It’s also worrying that at two hospital appointments the issue of what happens after the biopsy has not been raised, even though it was clear that both the people I saw thought I should have a biopsy.  Maybe they would say that it would have been raised if and when I agreed to a biopsy, but given concerns about receiving unnecessary treatment, I feel it should have been raised at the time the issue of having a biopsy was raised.  Would they have explained to me that if cancerous cells were found, they might not be able to tell whether I needed treatment or not?  Would they have told me that there was a risk (if not a certainty?) that I would be ‘offered’ treatment that I might not need?  Since they did not have that conversation with me I cannot answer those questions.

Conclusions

My psa is raised but not highly raised and it didn’t move up fast, so I feel it is not at present a firm indicator of the need for a prostate biopsy – it’s inconclusive.  The only additional risk factor I have is that I smoke, and I suspect that is often overplayed by the NHS.  According to NHS statistics, I should be suffering the ill effects of smoking by the age of 70, in the form of early signs of lung cancer, but when I had a chest scan a year ago it was clear.  In addition I have an enlarged prostate – which was determined at my first hospital visit not to feel cancerous – which means I would have a heightened psa anyway.

I have been offered another appointment by the hospital in six months, and I am going to take that up, but unless things change I think that has to be the last for the moment.  It’s pointless me trooping up to the hospital every six months when I don’t want a biopsy – which is all they can do by way of diagnosis – and there could be people with aggressive tumours urgently needing those appointments.  So I need to decide over the next six months finally, whether I am going to have a biopsy or not. 

The hospital has asked me to have another psa blood test before I go for the 6 month appointment, but I have asked my GP for three-monthly psa tests, so that I can get more of a feel for movement on the results before I go for the hospital appointment.  If my psa is suddenly moving up rapidly over the next six months, then, depending how fast and how far it is moving, I may agree to a biopsy.  Otherwise it is unlikely that I will, in which case there is not much point in the hospital continuing to see me – though I will ask my local surgery to continue monitoring me with 4 or 6-monthly psa tests.

 

At the age of 70 I still work full-time (for myself), and having unnecessary treatment for prostate cancer would certainly have far more of an impact on my life than having a slow developing prostate cancer which would not affect my health or life expectancy, and might even have more of an impact in the short term than having an aggressive prostate tumour.  So it’s a numbers game.  None of us is going to live forever, and at my age quality of life is more important than lifespan.  Younger doctors especially often don’t take account of this, and assume that keeping you breathing, no matter what state you are in, is some sort of medical triumph.  Not surprisingly, there are lots of older people who don’t see it that way!

 

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  • Posted

    I noticed that a PCA3 test was mentioned by others. I suggest this before a biopsy. This is a non invasive test and it was the deciding test for me to go ahead with a biospy. The test came back with very high numbers suggesting cancerous cells and it was correct. I have since gone through proton radiation with excellent results. I do not know if this test is covered by insurance in your area but it may very well be worth the investment since you are betting on your life.

     

  • Posted

    Hi all. I too am suffering anxiety regarding prostrate cancer. I'm 56 and around 18 months ago I had a routine psa test. It was at the time 6.7. I was totally ignorant of information and went along with the urologists advice and had a biopsy. This first one did not give great results in that the reading was poor so he advised a saturation biopsy. I had at this point not had an Mri scan. The results from the second biopsy were negative. In total 50 needle samples taken. Then 12 months on my psa rose to 8.9 and I was then sent for an mri scan. The results have apparently shown an "abnormality" though he doesn't believe it is cancer he has suggested another saturation biopsy! My psa was taken again and it has came down to 6.6 I am really undecided and to be honest I wish I had never had the bloody routine psa test as I was fine until then. 
    • Posted

      Dear Peter,

      My heart goes out to you.  Saturation biopsy.....Lord!  Lower on this chat you'll find a reply I gave to Terry that would apply to you.  At 56 years of age, the likelihood that you have microscopic cancerous cells in your prostate is approximately 56%.  Remember, they are microscopic and your body may or may not simply absorb those cells or otherwise neutralize them.  If you died today and they did an autopsy, removed your prostate, and looked cell by cell through your prostate they would very likely find cancer.....oh well.  They could also saturate your prostate with 50 needle sticks or 5,000 needle sticks and possibly find one or several of these microscopic lesions.  What is the purpose and what is the goal?  Are they going to provide radical treatment for a microscopic cancer?  

      Also, it is important to bear in mind that any assault to the prostate.....getting kicked, infection, sex, masturbation, or biopsy needle sticks etc. damages the prostate cells and raises PSA.  It also creates damaged cells that are then malformed and can erroneously be read via Gleason analysis as cancerous.  The prostate gland is a little like a sponge with many little cavities and dead-end tubules.  As a result, biopsies inevitably damage the cell structures, leaving scarring, etc. These then become areas that are weak and prone to infection, etc.  

      If you need to look for the cancer so thoroughly, maybe it isn't so terribly dangerous in the first place.  Just a thought.

      These are just my personal opinions and I live in the US where prostate cancer is known to be seriously overtreated.  Your part of the world may be very different.

      I wish you the best,  Carl 

  • Posted

    Hi Peter

    We're in about the same position - except that I haven't had the biopsies of course.  We've got a slightly raised psa which hasn't doubled over a period or anything like that, and we don't have any symptoms (you didn't mention any so I'm assuming you don't have any).  I agree with you.  if I hadn't had a routine psa, which my GP ordered as part of a group of routine tests she suggested I had  then I wouldn't have got into all this.  I just had a further psa test Mon and will be trying (!!!) to get the result out of the GP's receptionist tomorrow.  Unless it's heading up at a rate of knots I'm more than likely to decide that I can do without this whole process.  I do wonder if there are factors aside from the ones  they know of that account for a raised psa, because there are so many of us with a slightly raised psa but no sign of disease.  Roll on a more accurate test.

    Hope it goes well with you.

    All the best   Terry

     

  • Posted

    When I started this thread I said I would have two furthe three-monthly psa tests prior to a further NHS consultant's appointment I've been given for August.  I had the first of those tests on Monday and I got the result today - 6.5, down from 7 last time.  Almost exactly five years ago my psa was 4.6.  Sometime over the next three years it rose 30%, and over the past two years it has just varied between 6 and 7.  I still have no symptoms, don't get up at night to go to the bathroom, don't have any pains or difficulties.

    Interestingly the review of the result read: "Abnormal but satisfactory, no action required", although the GP I had been seeing thought I should be referred, and the consultant I saw said he had known someone with a psa lower than mine who had an aggressive tumour - though he hurried on and didn't give me a chance to ask, as no doubt many of you would: 'did this guy have symptoms', 'did his psa double over a short period', etc.

    I'm extremely grateful for the concern for my health which has been shown by my GP and the consultant, and I would never want them to think otherwise.  But I think I need something other than a slightly raised psa before I decide to get on the merry-go-round.

    I've got another psa result to get in early August, and then I'll decide what I'm going to do about the consultant appointment.  I would like to go, but only because it was only after my first appointment that I came across research evidence suggesting that if some evidence of a tumour was disclosed on a biopsy then I might well be offered treatment even though I didn't need it.  "Better safe than sorry" as I've suggested before. So I would like to ask the consultant: "If a biopsy discloses evidence of a tumour how certain can you be that you will know whether it is aggressive or not?' and 'Will you still offer me treatment even if there is a chance the tumour might not be aggressive?'.

    I would really like to hear the consultant's answers to those two questions.  But I think when you come down to it the answer is probably 'maybe' in both cases. And considering that unless my next psa result looks like its been launched by nasa I've no intention of having a biopsy, I think it would be fairly pointless to have another hospital appointment, and unfair to people who really need those appointments.  I did think I might continue monitoring my psa every six months, but I'm not even sure that's worth doing.

    Anyway, another result in three months, and then I'll make up my mind.

    • Posted

      Hi Terry,

      My reading on the topic informs me of several things.  First, the likelihood that we all have microscopic abnormal prostate cells is essentially your age as a male written as a percentage.  Biopsies sometimes find that microscopic abnormality and sometimes they don't (kind of a needle in a haystack phenomenon).  Neither the presence of a microscopic lesion, nor the absence is therefore particularly informative.  This is part of the reason that the US Preventative Services Task Force recommended, as did the person who developed the test, that the PSA testing NOT be used for screening purposes because it merely elevates a man's deepest concerns for his health, strikes the fear of God into him, and, to use your words, puts him on the merry-go-round.  

      In terms of assessing aggressiveness, PSA testing has some minimal utility.  The absolute number is mostly irrelevant, as some cancers produce high amounts of PSA and are not infrequently benign while others produce small amounts and are aggressive.  Aggressiveness does not appear to be directly related to the PSA number, hence you can read about the odd person with a PSA over 20,000 with no symptoms as well as a person with a low PSA, a very aggressive cancer, multiple symptoms, who is dying of this disease.  PSA doubling time is one of the only uses of the test and, if you are 50 or so and it is doubling quickly, that is one indicator that you may have an aggressive cancer.

      Were I you, I would step away from treatment, do watchful waiting with six month PSA testing and begin to track doubling time.  But that is just me.  In my country they far and away overtreat fear.  Urologists will sometimes admit that they really didn't think that someone needed treatment but that the person was anxious and a worried type of person and would have difficulty living with cancer so they just took it out. Given the predictably high risk of post-intervention problems, I personally consider that malpractice.  Again, just a personal opinion.

      I wish you the best,  Carl

  • Posted

    Hi Carl

    Thanks for that.  That's really useful.  And thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post on this thread.  Your thoughts and experiences have been very hepful.

    All the best   Terry

     

    • Posted

      Hello Terry,

      For what it is worth,  I totally agree with Carl.  In the absence of any symptoms and relevant Family history,   go to 6 monthly and meantime,   forget about it and live a little.  

      With both courage and intelligence respectively you Guys have done this Site a great service.

      Regards

      Dudley

    • Posted

      Thanks Dudley.  Some situations seem to me to be easier to call than others.  As you know, given my experiences in the US where overtreatment is the norm and the havoc that wreaks unnecessarily, I tend to look through a hesitant lens.  I have also come to respect a different lens where it is conceivable restrictions on access to care result in an absence of medical advice and options when treatment actually is necessary. You've offered some balance to me and it is my hope that if it were not the case before, that I've offered some balance for you.

      My Best To You,  Carl

  • Posted

    I've had high PSA for 4 years and had Kaiser, private Dr, and then UCLA all telling me get a biopsy. Terry...I read all your facts, fears and resisted center and read and researched the same issues with biopsies as you and continuously resisted for almost same reasons as you. Only difference is that I told 2nd doctor I wanted the more advanced MRI first, so I could have a targeted fusion biopsy. From my reaearch, prostate anaylsis is backward due to insurance costs and lack of info. With Mri's technology greatly advancing, men should have this be a routine first step, though expensive, so that any suspicious areas can then be part of the fusion biopsy. Took Mri to UCLA...saw one of top Urologists, had the biopsy and it came back negative. Of course, there can still be cancer that was not picked up. But rather than uncertainty from using interent to continuously convince myself that biopsies are bad and that's it's all a guessing game, and that biopsies complications should dictate doing nothing....I went for it and at least for time being I'm feeling more comfortable. After 6 days effects of biopsy are 90% gone, but feeling in life that I can cross something of my list that was over due, has been positive. Bottom line; research and consider the more advance MRIs first...you can later reject the biopsy if you want.
  • Posted

    Hi Neil

    Interesting to hear your experience.  I'm fortunate to have had an MRI (2 actually!) recently on my spine because I mentioned an occasional back issue to a keen GP and had a scan which disclosed something small which turned out to be nothing.  So I know there is no cancer there.  But the more advanced forms of biopsy aren't available in the UK on the NHS - they stick to the good old basic (cheap) version.

    I'm going to have one more PSA in a couple of months and see if it's still in the same general area (between 6 and 7) and then decide whether to keep monitoring my PSA every 6 months, or whether to just stop monitoring and look at it again if I ever get any symptoms.  It will probably be the latter.  Based on everything I know, I either don't have a tumour, or more likely I do but it's slow growing.  And even if I find out for sure, there is unlikely to be any certainty about whether I should have treatment or not.  In all the circumstances, which include the fact that I'm 71, still working for myself, and still generally in good shape, I would rather take a small chance of having an untreated tumour that turns aggressive at some time in the future and maybe ends my life, than take a probably larger chance of my life as I know it ending fairly soon because of treatment that I might not even need.

    But as I've often said before on this thread that is very much a personal decision. I fully understand, and respect, that other people will take different decisions.

    I'm glad your decision is working out for you and I wish you all the best.

     

    • Posted

      Hi Terry. Very understandable and sounds like right move for yourself. I just think psa is losing steam as a main indicator and biopsies can be hit or miss. Guys with psa of 2 can have an aggressive cancer and not know it until it is too late. In reverse, I have a 9.2 psa and biopsy was consistent with an "Artemis" Mri and was negative...yet i know i can still have cancer, but likely not aggressive at this time. Now they say that t could be simple inflammation in prostate or just from BHP. I have no infection or prostitus.

      Anyway doing nothing is a decent alternative for reasons you've discussed. I'm surprised in UK, where all my relatives live, there isn't any advanced mri, because that could show if there is a significant tumor allowing one to then decide on undergoing a mere targeted 2-4 core biopsy and not 12-18 core!! Makes a big difference. Best wishes to you and I'm sure your making right move for yourself.

  • Posted

    Ah Yes, watchful waiting or simply doing nothing.  I'll be turning 70 in two months and was recommended to a biopsy (and foolishly had a "random" one) back in 1995 which found nothing.  My PSA was then 10.  In 2005 a color doppler guided biopsy (my third) finally found a tumor 3 + 4.  My PSA was then 26.  They of course recommended treatment although they couldn't identify any variable that suggested an aggressive tumor.  I opted to pass.  It is now ten years later and my last PSA was just over 100!  I still have no symptoms.  My PSA doubling time is approximately five years, suggesting a slow growing tumor.  I clearly have "the old man's disease."  My dad died at 51 of a heart attack so I'm already on borrowed time and never thought that I'd live to being "an old man."  I think my genetics are going to take me to about 87 and I am hoping I'll die with prostate cancer, not from it.  We'll see.  I know that I won't suffer 35 years with prostate treatment symptoms and I'm thankful for that.  Carl
  • Posted

    Newly diagnosed Sept 28th. PSA 11.3...3 of 12 cores... Gleason 3+3=6, 8%, 3+3=6, 40%, 3+4=7, 54%. T1c. Love this discussion. What great info. not sure what Pat I'll take but definitely you guys give great ideas
    • Posted

      Having pathologist determine if haploid or diploid.

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