Should I have a prostate biopsy?

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Introduction

I’m 70 and have a PSA which was at 4.6 when I was 66, and while it has been regularly monitored over the past 18 months or so has been moving up and down between 6 and 7.  My doctor thought that I should be referred and I have had two hpital appointments, but I have so far decided against having a prostate biopsy, though it is obvious that my local hospital’s oncology department would like me to have one.  The health worker I saw at my first hospital appointment was happy to discuss the issue with me, but I suspect the consultant I just saw probably thought I should stop wasting his time and get booked in for a biopsy without further delay. 

I have received information from those two appointments, but I have obtained much more information from online research.  Based on studying a number of online medical reports over the period 2008 – 2014, it is evident that there is increasing prejudice, at least in the US and Australia, against the use of prostate biopsies.  The primary reasons for this seem to be an increasing risk of serious infections from the most common type of biopsy, a growing recognition (though this may be controversial) that psa screening and biopsies are ineffective in reducing the incidence of terminal prostate cancer, and that screening and biopsies contribute to massive ‘over treatment’ of prostate cancers

 

Summary of Statistics (some of which may be controversial but all of which are based on (my interpretation of) studies published in urological journals, research reviews and conference speeches by leading urologists).

Of every 100 men who have a prostate biopsy:

·         97 didn’t need it (that is, they don’t have a prostate cancer requiring treatment)

·         6 will get a serious infection as a result (a figure which has doubled in recent years), which will cause them to be hospitalised, and from which a very occasional man will die, while others (we don’t know how many) will have persistent painful side effects

·         between 17 and 22 will be offered treatment that they don’t need, as a result of which about 25% of men in their 70s will become incontinent or impotent.

 

The Perceived Indicators for Biopsy

Primarily a raised psa; a psa which has increased rapidly over a fairly short period, typically a year; smoking; family history of prostate cancer; age (considered with the other factors).  I have a raised psa, but it’s not dramatically high – it’s been between 6 and 7 over the past 1 ½ years, and it has not increased dramatically – it was 4.6 five years ago.  I do smoke, and I am 70, but I am generally in good health, and there is no history of prostate cancer in my family that I know of.

 

Statistics Based on Recent Urological Papers

Of every 100 men who have a biopsy, between 75 and 80 have no cancerous cells and didn’t need the procedure; 20 to 25 will have cancerous cells found on biopsy BUT a large percentage of these men will have a tumour which develops very slowly, will not be terminal and doesn’t really need any treatment.  Only a small percentage will have an aggressive tumour requiring immediate intervention; the Harvard School of Public Health, in a 2014 paper, put this percentage at 10 – 15%, or 3 men out of the 100. 

This means only 3 out of every 100 men who have a biopsy really needed it.  And there are two other real concerns.

1.       The one certainty with prostate biopsies is that 100% of the men who have them will have ‘side effects’.  Some will be shortlived and not really a problem, but some will be painful and longer lasting, and some men, currently about 6 out of the 100, will be hospitalised with serious infections, and the very occasional one will die.  There are no statistics for the number of men receiving treatment for post-biopsy infections at doctors’ surgeries.  I don’t necessarily see this as a reason not to have a biopsy, because obviously if you really need a biopsy to diagnose a terminal cancer then it’s worth putting up with the side effects.  But do you really need it?

2.       Most worryingly, doctors apparently can’t tell from the biopsy result whether cancerous cells denote an aggressive tumour which requires immediate treatment, or a slow developing tumour which probably does not need any treatment.  As a result, as I understand it, all patients with cancerous cells may generally be assumed to need immediate treatment, such as hormone replacement, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, even though 85-90% of them don’t need any treatment.  Research papers suggest that in men in their 70s, 25% who have this treatment will become incontinent or impotent as a result.  Many of these men will suffer these consequences despite the fact that they didn’t ever need the treatment they were subjected to.

 

It’s also worrying that at two hospital appointments the issue of what happens after the biopsy has not been raised, even though it was clear that both the people I saw thought I should have a biopsy.  Maybe they would say that it would have been raised if and when I agreed to a biopsy, but given concerns about receiving unnecessary treatment, I feel it should have been raised at the time the issue of having a biopsy was raised.  Would they have explained to me that if cancerous cells were found, they might not be able to tell whether I needed treatment or not?  Would they have told me that there was a risk (if not a certainty?) that I would be ‘offered’ treatment that I might not need?  Since they did not have that conversation with me I cannot answer those questions.

Conclusions

My psa is raised but not highly raised and it didn’t move up fast, so I feel it is not at present a firm indicator of the need for a prostate biopsy – it’s inconclusive.  The only additional risk factor I have is that I smoke, and I suspect that is often overplayed by the NHS.  According to NHS statistics, I should be suffering the ill effects of smoking by the age of 70, in the form of early signs of lung cancer, but when I had a chest scan a year ago it was clear.  In addition I have an enlarged prostate – which was determined at my first hospital visit not to feel cancerous – which means I would have a heightened psa anyway.

I have been offered another appointment by the hospital in six months, and I am going to take that up, but unless things change I think that has to be the last for the moment.  It’s pointless me trooping up to the hospital every six months when I don’t want a biopsy – which is all they can do by way of diagnosis – and there could be people with aggressive tumours urgently needing those appointments.  So I need to decide over the next six months finally, whether I am going to have a biopsy or not. 

The hospital has asked me to have another psa blood test before I go for the 6 month appointment, but I have asked my GP for three-monthly psa tests, so that I can get more of a feel for movement on the results before I go for the hospital appointment.  If my psa is suddenly moving up rapidly over the next six months, then, depending how fast and how far it is moving, I may agree to a biopsy.  Otherwise it is unlikely that I will, in which case there is not much point in the hospital continuing to see me – though I will ask my local surgery to continue monitoring me with 4 or 6-monthly psa tests.

 

At the age of 70 I still work full-time (for myself), and having unnecessary treatment for prostate cancer would certainly have far more of an impact on my life than having a slow developing prostate cancer which would not affect my health or life expectancy, and might even have more of an impact in the short term than having an aggressive prostate tumour.  So it’s a numbers game.  None of us is going to live forever, and at my age quality of life is more important than lifespan.  Younger doctors especially often don’t take account of this, and assume that keeping you breathing, no matter what state you are in, is some sort of medical triumph.  Not surprisingly, there are lots of older people who don’t see it that way!

 

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  • Posted

    Here is a bit of information about a new blood test called the 4KScore that is marketed by Opko Lab in Nashville, Tenn.,  It is a relatively new test - I think it has been available for about a year, and it is just getting recognition by urologists. It claims to have a 94% success rate in diagnosing agressive prostate cancer, so it may be a good step to do before having a biopsy.  There are several articles about it online which I suggest reading.  The current cost of the test is about $1200, but Opko offers discounts for low income people if you call them  after you receive the bill.  They will send you some forms to prove your income.  They do not accept insurance. 

    I called Opko Lab customer service, and they gave me the names of 2 doctors that are using the tests in my city.

    When I visited the one of the doctors today, he agreed to give me the 4KScore test, and then if it is positive, that indicates that I need  to have the biopsy. 

    Opko Labs is offering free samples to urologists to encourage them to use it more often and adopt it as part of their screening for prostate cancer.  I was very fortunate, with my limited income to receive a free sample from the doctor today.

    I have tried my best to research the total cost of a prostate biopsy, but so far have not gotten anywhere.  I would appreciate any information your readers could give me regarding the cost of the procedure by the doctor(s) and the cost of the pathology by the lab. Thanks,

  • Posted

    You might be interested in reading an interview with Dr. Richard J Ablin who discovered the antigen which is tested by the PSA. 

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/828854

    To summarize the interview, Dr. Ablin said that the the legitimate use of the PSA test was to track the prostate gland after surgery.  This use of the PSA test for that purpose was approved by the FDA in 1986 for one company, Hybritech.  However, soon after that, several biotech companies created their own version of the test and started to use it for general screening for prostate cancer without approval.  In 1996 the FDA approved the PSA for general use for men 50 years and older. 

    Dr. Ablin said that it was wrong for the FDA to approve the test for routine use since it results in a 78% false positive rate - almost 4 out of 5 people who test high on the PSA do not have prostate cancer, but many of them go on to get a biopsy.

    Dr Ablin has written a book called "The Great Prostate Hoax: How Big Medicine Hijacked the PSA Test and Caused a Public Health Disaster".

  • Posted

    Hi terryw, First I would like to commend you for being a proactive patient. Unfortunatly many men get scared and sign up for biopsy when in most cases it doesn't find cancer. My doctor said that I will have to have a PSA test in the spring and I am sure it will be elevated due to my prostate being enlarged. I am on Testosterone replacement therapy as my body no longer makes any Testosterone. In my case if it is elevated I plan on getting retested 6 weeks later to see if there is a change. If it is higher then I plan on having an MRI scan done. This is noninvasive and from what I read has a higher accuracy than doing needle biopsies aided with ultrasound. I have read that doing needle biopsies can cause the cancer to follow the needle track out of the prostate and into surounding tissue. Naturally the more holes they put in the Prostate the more chaces this will happen. I am 47 and I would like to find and treat cancer if it is agressive in nature, but I find it difficult to subject my body to damaging tests such as needle biopsy. The diagnostic tests and treatment pro's and con's need to be discussed up front with every patient so each person has the opportunity to decide for themselves what is right for them. Every man's situation is different and they need to make an informed choice and it is unprofessional of any doctor not to discuss the options with their patients. I wish you well and hope that you don't have cancer.
  • Posted

    I agree with @georgegg in that having a Transperineal Fustion Biopsy will allow the urologist to guise a few needles to the exact spot that a 3T MRI has shown to be (say) PI-RADS 3 or 4 (where the latter means there is a likelihood of carcinoma. There is NO chance of an infection with this method.

    I have had this, and in the procedure, after a general anaesthetic, a catheter is put into the ureter. They then put my legs into a stirrup (like they do/did for women giving birth). The surgeon examined the prostate by anal probe (again) and placed an ultrasound probe into the rectum to take a closer look and allow the merging of the MRI image and the local situation. To take the biopsies a computer used the MRI (DVD) to guide the needle to spots they wanted to sample. The surgeon repeated to me that because the needles do not go through the anus, but rather through the area between the scrotum and the anus, there is no chance of infection. After the biopsies, a dressing is placed over the area where the needles went in, which you can cover with a feminine hygeine pad after a shower later in the day if there is any blood spotting.

    I expected some blood in the urine for a day or two, but there was none. Surprisingly, I had almost no pain - certainly none in the prostate area. No, I was not on any meds. They gave me a urinary alkaliniser to take if I need to.  I had to rest for 48 hours and not do any physically demanding work (as if),  

    Then you wait for the biopsy results and hope the Gleason score is very low. As others have stated here, you need that Gleason score and hope the first number is lower than the second number and the overall score is low, e.g., 1+2=3  ....

    Why play Russian roulette with your health by not having a 3T MRI?

     

  • Posted

    I meant to say that my PSA ranged between 2.5 and 3.5 over the past decade, yet the 3T MRI found what could be carcinoma in the prostate. The Transperineal Fusion Biopsy that followed proved the point that many make that the PSA gives many false negatives and positives and that there are now better tools at the medical profession's disposal.

    Normally, people have a biopsy then MRI, but because I was in a workup to a PAE, I had them the other way round. I'd recommend this approach to anyone.

  • Posted

    I think you did a great deal of research on it and as you know that most cancers of the prostate are slow growing. There is a possibility that you do have cancer, but the question is will it even be a problem at a latter stage in life? If it is slow growing then most likely it will not. If you were 50 then it changes things. I would say that what ever you decide make sure that it is what you want. If you are really not wanting a biopsy then that is you decision to make no one should force you to or bully you into it. If I were in your shoes I don't think I would have a biopsy, but that is my decision not yours. If you decide to get more tests done see if you can get a high res MRI done these are not 100% but nearly 80 at finding suspicious growths in the prostate. Pending the results you can better decide what to do next IE watch it for a while with a follow up MRI checking for an increase of size. If you decide on a biopsy they can use the MRI to find the growth and guide the needle to the correct place giving it a much better chance of success. Also despite what some say make sure that you get pain controll medication for the biopsy, there is no need for you do endure pain. What ever you decide to do good luck to you and I hope it works out for the best.
  • Posted

    Absolutely agree with the young doctors vs older doctors. I dont think its a triumph factor though. The younger doctors can't relate to gettimg up in age and factoring remaining quality of life vs risk to do procedures. I will give you my opinion after this: Im 61, had a psa of 9.5, 2 doctors said "I think you have cancer"..slight amounts of blood in Urine. I asked for an Mri first and got it covered by my insurance because I had a previous biopsy 8 years ago. So one of these doctors looked at the Mri and said there is a suspicious spot and you definitely should get the biopsy. I then went to the HEAD Dr in Urology at UCLA. He looked at the SAME Mri and said he had no idea what the other Dr was talking about with suspicious area, however due to high Psa of 9.5 he highly recommended the Biopsy. Ok...so I did the 18 core biopsy and it was far easier than I thought...since they really nb the area. The bleeding episodes in aftermath lasted as typically reported..2-4 weeks. The result...no cancer! So while I feel more at ease, I no longer feel I can trust the medical field on prostate issues...too many false positives and negatives. Since your psa spike hasn't gone up too radically, and it was far below mine, it seems to be a guessing game. My slight blood in urine, microscopic, now 2 doctors said it's 90% due to enlarged prostate. Bottom line...your 70 and want 10-15 years quality life. Nothing you say really puts you in imminent danger now...just do as you plan and monitor the psa and other factors. Again though, I made much to do about nothing.... with an 18 core biopsy that went far easier than expected, still I don't recommend unless you feel it's time! We all know the many cons of tests and procedures that don't prevent death from prostate cancer and part of me really wonders how to factor in the medical worlds zest and need for profits. Hate to feel this cynicism but that's the reality for me now.
    • Posted

      Totaly agree with what you said. It is difficult to detect cancer of the prostate and especially the latter in life you are the less likely slow growing prostate cancer will be a factor. So quality of life should be the focus and not to go off the deep end treating something that should be left alone. I read a story from a lady that lost her father at age 74 because the doctor wanted him to go in for a prostate biopsy. He did as the doctor said and died 3 days later from sepsis from the biopsy. Was this the right thing to do for him? I think not and as a result he lost his life. Now this is a small risk but a very real one. again it comes down to age and that persons decision based on the info one has and as you said doctors even though they mean well can often missread the results and put someone through hell for nothing. In my case my doctor said it was likely I had a brain tumor and wanted me to have an MRI. I was stressed about the tumor, but after talking to a different doctor found out that my tests were missread and he felt I had no risk of tumor. I was put through months of stress over nothing.
    • Posted

      Exactly....the stress this causes us when these doctors make something subjective sound as if there is an objective imminent danger requiring to proceed now, is what we have to be aware of and not over react to. Glad to hear you had no tumor, but it must have been hell.
    • Posted

      It wouldn't have been so bad but this went on for a year before I found out it wasn't. At least I know how I will react to the real thing. For me I was taking a wait and see approach. Didn't want any treatment. It was scary. So yea you have to get a second opinion it would seem. Doctors are not perfect they make mistakes but hopefully they don't cause some man or woman to die early as a result of the mistake.
    • Posted

      Urologists need to start recommending non-invasive diagnostic procedures for detecting prostate cancer such as the 4KScore test, MRI and color doppler ultrasound.  One other downside to prostate biopsies, besides sepsis, is that usually cipro and/or levaquin are prescribed to be taken before the procedure, and, although relatively rare, these drugs can cause long-term tendon and nerve damage.
    • Posted

      Agree about recommending non evasive procedures like an Mri. However, apparently those can only bring up 'suspicious areas' (phrase of Drs) without determining for sure if it is cancer, as happened with me. Then once the doctors determine it is a suspicious area ), they can do a targeted biopsy which is a lot more efficient then a typical shot in the dark biopsy.
    • Posted

      The 4KScore blood test has a 94% accuracy of detecting cancer.  It is a very good screening tool. It doesn't cause sepsis, it doesn't have a high false positive and it is non-invasive, and it is very inexpensive.  I had it done, and the results were that I had a 7% chance of having prostate cancer.  That is a very small likelihood.  When my urologist received the results, he wanted me to  have a prostate biopsy anyway, even after I told him my concerns about the complications from doing it. I had an ultrasound done, and there were no signs of cancer at all, and it indicated that I may have prostatitis, so I took Septra for a couple of weeks and my PSA went down to 2.1 from 7.8 
    • Posted

      It's amazing how they jump to biopsy when you have a 7% chance of cancer. I wouldn't even had the ultrasound. So many times doctors jump to conclusions when it is most likely benign swelling of the prostate. At least your mind was put at ease without spending 6,000 plus dollars on a biopsy.
    • Posted

      Ok...nice to know about the 4kScore blood test, when not even 1 of 3 top Urologists suggested that!!! Is this a fairly new test?... or do many of the so called "top Urologists' just unaware of this or are they possibly reluctant to recommend for some reason. It verges on being scarry that we are all susceptible to making major life decisions without all the info available. Well, guess this forum really serves a great purpose! Thanks for the info Bruce.
    • Posted

      A Transperineal Fusion Biopsy (MRI Guided) does NOT lead to any infection.  The random method through the anus does. The MRI guided method means the needles go straight to the area identified in the preceeding MRI, and is entered in an area between the scrotum and anus. I have had this done. There are no meds before or after the procedure, so there are none of the effects you mention. If anyone wants to take this route, check with your urologist to verify.
    • Posted

      Precisely. However, a PI-RADS score from the MRI can be very persuasive. And no chance of infection because of the way the procedure is conducted. Radiologists will use terms such as "suspicious" for good reason. Only a biopsy will provide a Gleason score, which will tend to remove most suspicions -- one way or the other. And if one still isn't convinced, have the urologist do a cystoscopy and take a camera view of the prostate from inside the urethra .... I won't take this further as that is a matter for a urologist.
    • Posted

      This test sounds to good to be true. If it works as stated it can change so many things. I don't understand why, if such a test is available, doctors don't use it more. Why send someone in for a risky painful biopsy when this test would give them a good idea as to whether a biopsy is needed at all. I would opt to have this test done instead of the PSA and then if it shows low risk of cancer I would tell my doctor to go pound sand if he wanted me to get a biopsy done. This is a great leap forward in terms of catching cancer before it is a problem. I was told by my doctor that in order for me to continue with Testosterone replacment therape I had to have a PSA test in the spring. I guess maybe this test would be a better idea. Does one need both?
    • Posted

      Good points Stewart. I was recommended to have a cystoscopy as well as a biopsy. The puzzling factor to me is how one doctor sees the Mri results and says 'very suspicious' and the other doctor says the spot found in the Mri is 'no way suspicious.. just normal' (I believe he said bundling of tissue or something like that), which I then conclude the anaylsis is very subjective; my conclusion then is when you start with non evasive procedures of mri and psa, and in light that intrepretations of results are very subjective, then I can see how many news reports indicate that too many unnecessary biopsies, cystoscopys, etc, are performed. The risk-benefits don't always make sense. For me having the 18 core biopsy did make sense but for peace of mind only.
    • Posted

      Neil: I agree with you. There do seem to be too many unwarranted tests done. I also agree with your points about subjectivity creeping in when test results are interpreted. Because certainty isn't there, it is a bit like triangulation when navigating ... One test is not enough, and one or two more are needed to know where you are.

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