Should I have a prostate biopsy?

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Introduction

I’m 70 and have a PSA which was at 4.6 when I was 66, and while it has been regularly monitored over the past 18 months or so has been moving up and down between 6 and 7.  My doctor thought that I should be referred and I have had two hpital appointments, but I have so far decided against having a prostate biopsy, though it is obvious that my local hospital’s oncology department would like me to have one.  The health worker I saw at my first hospital appointment was happy to discuss the issue with me, but I suspect the consultant I just saw probably thought I should stop wasting his time and get booked in for a biopsy without further delay. 

I have received information from those two appointments, but I have obtained much more information from online research.  Based on studying a number of online medical reports over the period 2008 – 2014, it is evident that there is increasing prejudice, at least in the US and Australia, against the use of prostate biopsies.  The primary reasons for this seem to be an increasing risk of serious infections from the most common type of biopsy, a growing recognition (though this may be controversial) that psa screening and biopsies are ineffective in reducing the incidence of terminal prostate cancer, and that screening and biopsies contribute to massive ‘over treatment’ of prostate cancers

 

Summary of Statistics (some of which may be controversial but all of which are based on (my interpretation of) studies published in urological journals, research reviews and conference speeches by leading urologists).

Of every 100 men who have a prostate biopsy:

·         97 didn’t need it (that is, they don’t have a prostate cancer requiring treatment)

·         6 will get a serious infection as a result (a figure which has doubled in recent years), which will cause them to be hospitalised, and from which a very occasional man will die, while others (we don’t know how many) will have persistent painful side effects

·         between 17 and 22 will be offered treatment that they don’t need, as a result of which about 25% of men in their 70s will become incontinent or impotent.

 

The Perceived Indicators for Biopsy

Primarily a raised psa; a psa which has increased rapidly over a fairly short period, typically a year; smoking; family history of prostate cancer; age (considered with the other factors).  I have a raised psa, but it’s not dramatically high – it’s been between 6 and 7 over the past 1 ½ years, and it has not increased dramatically – it was 4.6 five years ago.  I do smoke, and I am 70, but I am generally in good health, and there is no history of prostate cancer in my family that I know of.

 

Statistics Based on Recent Urological Papers

Of every 100 men who have a biopsy, between 75 and 80 have no cancerous cells and didn’t need the procedure; 20 to 25 will have cancerous cells found on biopsy BUT a large percentage of these men will have a tumour which develops very slowly, will not be terminal and doesn’t really need any treatment.  Only a small percentage will have an aggressive tumour requiring immediate intervention; the Harvard School of Public Health, in a 2014 paper, put this percentage at 10 – 15%, or 3 men out of the 100. 

This means only 3 out of every 100 men who have a biopsy really needed it.  And there are two other real concerns.

1.       The one certainty with prostate biopsies is that 100% of the men who have them will have ‘side effects’.  Some will be shortlived and not really a problem, but some will be painful and longer lasting, and some men, currently about 6 out of the 100, will be hospitalised with serious infections, and the very occasional one will die.  There are no statistics for the number of men receiving treatment for post-biopsy infections at doctors’ surgeries.  I don’t necessarily see this as a reason not to have a biopsy, because obviously if you really need a biopsy to diagnose a terminal cancer then it’s worth putting up with the side effects.  But do you really need it?

2.       Most worryingly, doctors apparently can’t tell from the biopsy result whether cancerous cells denote an aggressive tumour which requires immediate treatment, or a slow developing tumour which probably does not need any treatment.  As a result, as I understand it, all patients with cancerous cells may generally be assumed to need immediate treatment, such as hormone replacement, radiotherapy, chemotherapy, even though 85-90% of them don’t need any treatment.  Research papers suggest that in men in their 70s, 25% who have this treatment will become incontinent or impotent as a result.  Many of these men will suffer these consequences despite the fact that they didn’t ever need the treatment they were subjected to.

 

It’s also worrying that at two hospital appointments the issue of what happens after the biopsy has not been raised, even though it was clear that both the people I saw thought I should have a biopsy.  Maybe they would say that it would have been raised if and when I agreed to a biopsy, but given concerns about receiving unnecessary treatment, I feel it should have been raised at the time the issue of having a biopsy was raised.  Would they have explained to me that if cancerous cells were found, they might not be able to tell whether I needed treatment or not?  Would they have told me that there was a risk (if not a certainty?) that I would be ‘offered’ treatment that I might not need?  Since they did not have that conversation with me I cannot answer those questions.

Conclusions

My psa is raised but not highly raised and it didn’t move up fast, so I feel it is not at present a firm indicator of the need for a prostate biopsy – it’s inconclusive.  The only additional risk factor I have is that I smoke, and I suspect that is often overplayed by the NHS.  According to NHS statistics, I should be suffering the ill effects of smoking by the age of 70, in the form of early signs of lung cancer, but when I had a chest scan a year ago it was clear.  In addition I have an enlarged prostate – which was determined at my first hospital visit not to feel cancerous – which means I would have a heightened psa anyway.

I have been offered another appointment by the hospital in six months, and I am going to take that up, but unless things change I think that has to be the last for the moment.  It’s pointless me trooping up to the hospital every six months when I don’t want a biopsy – which is all they can do by way of diagnosis – and there could be people with aggressive tumours urgently needing those appointments.  So I need to decide over the next six months finally, whether I am going to have a biopsy or not. 

The hospital has asked me to have another psa blood test before I go for the 6 month appointment, but I have asked my GP for three-monthly psa tests, so that I can get more of a feel for movement on the results before I go for the hospital appointment.  If my psa is suddenly moving up rapidly over the next six months, then, depending how fast and how far it is moving, I may agree to a biopsy.  Otherwise it is unlikely that I will, in which case there is not much point in the hospital continuing to see me – though I will ask my local surgery to continue monitoring me with 4 or 6-monthly psa tests.

 

At the age of 70 I still work full-time (for myself), and having unnecessary treatment for prostate cancer would certainly have far more of an impact on my life than having a slow developing prostate cancer which would not affect my health or life expectancy, and might even have more of an impact in the short term than having an aggressive prostate tumour.  So it’s a numbers game.  None of us is going to live forever, and at my age quality of life is more important than lifespan.  Younger doctors especially often don’t take account of this, and assume that keeping you breathing, no matter what state you are in, is some sort of medical triumph.  Not surprisingly, there are lots of older people who don’t see it that way!

 

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  • Posted

    I am an otherwise healthy 61 year old with some frequrncy of urination and noscturia over the last few years. In Dec 2015 a PSA was 8.5 sustained on repeating it. (Several years ago it had been 3 and about 10 years ago it had been 1.3). I was referred to a urologist who ordered a Kscore which came back 38( I think it means % chance of having metastases in 20 years, but confusing to for me to interpret). Then urologist did a DRE and found no nodules( or the Kscore would have been 56). He advised a biopsy and cystoscopy under anesthesia and I am trying to decide.

    The concerns are: should an MRI be done before biopsy? should the enlarged prostate be treated with medicines or antibiotics tried? should a Urine PCA3 be done? should complications of biopsy be discussed beforehand? and the method( the transperineal fusion MRI guided sounds like the better one)?

    I'm afraid the more I read the more questions I have.

    • Posted

      Yes, the complications should be discussed for anything you may have to endure. Is the biopsy being done with the cystoscope? If so that is better than a TRUS type biopsy. I would refuse that type. All your options should be discussed with you. If your Uro isn't willing then go to a different one. A second opinion is a good idea no matter what. I am 47 and facing problems at my age with my prostate and if my Uro wants a biopsy she will have to explain why and what might come of it before I let them schedule me. I have been taking cranberry pills and they have helped me greatly. Two weeks ago I thought I was going to have to go to the hospital because I could hardly urinate. Now I go pretty good, but despite being on Cipro for over a week now I still have a lot of pain. Hang in there, you have questions make sure they get answered to your liking before you schedule anything. Don't go into it blindly. One has to advocate for ourselves. If I had listened to my gastro I would have a bag to crap in now. I was told that I had Crohn's and my entire colon was diseased. It was but we had tried nothing at that point when he told me I should have surgery to remove my bowel. I told him he was nuts and found a new doctor. So second opinion is a good idea and make sure you get your questions answered.
    • Posted

      Thanks Craig, second opinion is in order. When one learns more from forums than from one's specialist it certainly makes one wonder. I realize it's a time thing, educating and discussing take time.

      TRUS is what I've been offered, seems to be the usual( until I read of the TransPerineal route on this forum); the cystoscopy is additional.

  • Posted

    Hey terry, looks like you have done your homework. I am in a similar situation so also been doing a lot of research. I would talk to your doctor about doing a PCA3 test. Some feel this is a better indicator of if you have prostate cancer. Also, this test seems to be a better indicator ( although not conclusive) of if the cancer is aggressive or non-aggressive. Also consider a T3 MRI which from what I have studied will give you another perspective to determine if you have any areas of concern.

    I am not a doctor, just done a lot of research like you. But at your age, I would get these two tests done before I would agree to a biopsy.

  • Posted

    I recently have two MRI for Prostate Diagnoses. The first one was Regular without contrast. First report was read by a Radiologist stating there is a well defined nodule that is highly suspicious, besides BHP. I sent the slides (CD) to a second opinion & their report did not mention anything suspicious it at that same location. The second doctor suggest to repeat the exam with DCE-MRI multiple both with and without contrast. A month later, second MRI was done. The same first doctor stated mostly the same what he said in the first exam, but this time he gave a PI-RADS score of 4. I went ahead sending the slide with the report to the second opinion and they came back agreeing the accuracy of the first interpretation. In both report, there is no other finding except a well defined oval shape on the right posterior. Below is exact word:

    "There is no focal bulging of the capsule, however, the subjacent capsule appears mildly irregular on tady's exam, only seen on sagittal T2W images. This is likely due to difference in rectal expansion between the exams, however,capsule involvement can't be entirely excluded"  

    There are more to the report but nothing specific & no abnormal finding.

    The urologist always recommend a biopsi if you came in with high psa or elevated psa. I have to reason with hin to get these two MRI scans.

    Now I have to decide if the must do the first biopsi (targeted biopsi): MRI guided Biopsi etc. to find out. I told my Urologist that I have read many threads about this & seen lots of people in pain after the biopsi, he told me that I talked to the wrong people. He said that it will be minimal. There may be some bleeding thru the urine in a first few days, but should be fine. He also said there are some people going directly to the gym after the biopsy. etc..

    I at the moment still undecide what I will do, but will probably go for the fisrt targeted one. I am only 59.

    • Posted

      I had the same 3T MRI (with contrast) outcome of PI-RADS 4.  I had a MRI guided biopsy (Transperenial Fusion Biopsy) which means needle sampling between the scrotum and anus, with no chance of infection.

      The Gleason score is the next thing to concentrate on.  If that is above 6, then come back for more details.

      Stewart

    • Posted

      Stewarta. Thanks for sharing. Any side effect or uncomfort after the biopsi you experienced?

       

    • Posted

      None at all. I wore a wingless pad for a couple of days until the needle spotting stopped. Nothing else.
  • Posted

    Hi Terry. You remind me of....well, me! You were so completely on with all the stats that I also went over in my mind that you already know the answer I believe. At 6 or 7 psa , with enlarged prostate, even though it did slightly spike, you are in a grey area and no one should try to convince you that a biopsy is going to increase you odds of catching a serious cancer growth. I too had MRI, 2 biopsies over the years and extremely varying opinions from Dr's with one telling me that with a 9 PSA, and microscopic blood in urine he thinks I have cancer. For months I agonized over same stats you are now looking at. I went to head Dr of UCLA Urology and he saw MRI results: where one previous Dr said it was highly suspicious...he said it was not that suspicious. But he did recommend a biopsy. From what i read i could have waited, but I didnt. I had the biopsy for one reason...to stop worrying about the biopsy. I then had an 18 core biopsy and got through it ok. Results...clear, no cancer no tumor. It was far easier than the one I had 12 years ago when procedures were different. Again I think your in grey zone and it's probably ok to wait a little longer OR just say what the character in the movie "Risky Business" said..."sometimes you just got to say what the F#×K" Thats what i did and now for at least another year or two, at least i dont agonize over it. So as a non technical answer to a conundrum us guys have with prostates...Be decisive and don't look from any answers from anyone but within yourself, and at whims notice, be prepared to say "WTF" and just do it if you are thinking too much about it.
    • Posted

      Hi NeilMiller,

      DO you have the contact information for the doctor of UCLA Uro. I may have a need to have him read the MRI as my curiosity. Thanks.

       

  • Posted

    Hi Terry. You remind me of....well, me! You were so completely on with all the stats that I also went over in my mind that you already know the answer I believe. At 6 or 7 psa , with enlarged prostate, even though it did slightly spike, you are in a grey area and no one should try to convince you that a biopsy is going to increase you odds of catching a serious cancer growth. I too had MRI, 2 biopsies over the years and extremely varying opinions from Dr's with one telling me that with a 9 PSA, and microscopic blood in urine he thinks I have cancer. For months I agonized over same stats you are now looking at. I went to head Dr of UCLA Urology and he saw MRI results: where one previous Dr said it was highly suspicious...he said it was not that suspicious. But he did recommend a biopsy. From what i read i could have waited, but I didnt. I had the biopsy for one reason...to stop worrying about the biopsy. I then had an 18 core biopsy and got through it ok. Results...clear, no cancer no tumor. It was far easier than the one I had 12 years ago when procedures were different. Again I think your in grey zone and it's probably ok to wait a little longer OR just say what the character in the movie "Risky Business" said..."sometimes you just got to say what the F#×K" Thats what i did and now for at least another year or two, at least i dont agonize over it. So as a non technical answer to a conundrum us guys have with prostates...Be decisive and don't look from any answers from anyone but within yourself, and at whims notice, be prepared to say "WTF" and just do it if you are thinking too much about it.
  • Posted

    Hi and thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread.  I had no idea when I started it that I would get such a wide range of opinions, and knowledgeable opinions at that.  And I'm very well aware that I rudely have not been responding to posts on the thread.  I lost my sign in because of tech problems on my system, and kept meaning to re-do it, but there never seem to be enough hours in the day and I just didn't get around to it.  Not good I know.

    Well, with your help I have answered my own question, 'Should I have a Prostate Biopsy?', and very much along the lines that many people have suggested.  I have cancelled my next consultant's appointment and taken myself off the pc rollercoaster. 

    Since I put up the post I had a psa test about 6 months ago, which came out 6.5, the same as 6 months or so earlier.  Its gone there from 4.6 6 years ago, and the last 2 or 3 years its been between 6 and 7.  The doctor I was seeing recommended I be referred to a consultant, but I know other GPs in the same practice would not have thought any action necessary.  And I think they are right - I know I have had BPH for some years, which is pretty common and is probably why my psa is up.  Bigger prostate = higher psa.  In any event, if my psa of 4.6 from 6 years ago had been an indicator of an aggressive tumour - which a consultant suggested it could be - I would probably be dead by now.

    I have no symptoms - no getting up in the night, no blood in my wee - I have no family history of prostate or breast cancer, and I have no interest in running up to 6% risk of Sepsis from a biopsy, or the possibility of receiving treatment I may not need, which is nevertheless likely to leave me impotent and incontinent.  At 72 I want to carry on being as I am as long as possible, and I think my best chance of achieving that is to steer clear of treatment I don't want and probably don't need.

     I've been intrigued by some of the stuff that is available in the US, and maybe in the UK in private medicine, but not from the NHS.  PSA may be unreliable, but it's cheap so the NHS will keep using it, and the same is true of the random biopsy through the rectum.  The NHS is fantastic, but it's never going to offer all the latest testing, because there must always be hard choices about how the money is spent, for example, should it be spent on better prostate testing for old guys, or specialist services for sick babies?  Not really any contest is there?

    I'm not necessarily assuming that I don't have a tumour.  I may well have.  But if I have, it seems likely to be slow growing, and if it's not going to kill me or cause me any problems I don't give a damn about it.  It can carry on doing what its doing and I'll do the same.

    I wouldn't say there's no risk.  I have read patient postings elsewhere saying they had no symptoms and by the time they were tested it had spread into their bones and nothing could be done.  Obviously they were urging everyone to get a psa and a biopsy as soon as possible.  And I'm not doing that, so I could be putting myself at serious risk.  But that risk is at most 2 - 3%, which is half of my risk of becoming seriously ill from a biopsy!

    I really don't believe that NHS staff would ever deliberately put me at risk, or give me treatment that they knew I didn't need, but inevitably they have a different viewpoint from me.  In most cases I suspect they think 'better safe than sorry' .  That's probably what the GP thought who referred me to a consultant, that's no doubt what the consultant thought when he wanted to give me a biopsy, and would probably be his attitude to treatment also, after which it's very likely that I would be impotent and incontinent.  'But,' my consultant would be likely to say, 'you're alive!'  To which I would be likely to reply 'That's a matter of opinion!'  I hate to disagree with the medical professionals, but that's not my idea of being alive.  Of course, if I really faced a choice between biopsy and treatment, with all the side effects, and death, I would be foolish to make the decision I have, but my assessment is that I'm not in that position, and since it's my life I'm going to back my assessment.

    I'm still thinking about whether to keep monitoring with a 6 month or annual PSA, but it's a major problem trying to persuade the doctor's receptionist to give me the result.  One told me she couldn't do it because she hadn't been trained!  What sort of training course do you need to read 6.5 off a screen?  The only way I could get the result, and even then with difficulty, was by getting the doctor who referred me to a consultant to put a note on my file telling the front desk to print me a copy of the test result.  But she has now left the practice, so I would have to go and see some other doctor and start all over again, and I really don't think it's worth bothering with.

    Anyway, that's the decision I've made, and my reasons for it. It's not the right decision for everyone, and I would never try to persuade anyone to do what I'm doing.  We all have to weigh up our own personal circumstances and make our own decisions.  Good luck to all of us.

    • Posted

      Hey terryw. I really like your altitude & positive thinking in your post. If I am at the same age, I would have done "probably" the same or just monitoring it by psa test & or 3T-MRI scaning.

      As a patient, you have a right to request the result or report from your test or your exam. Just pick up the phone & tell them that or even stop by the office & demand for the copy.

      My thought to myself that since I had 2 MRIs, if the first biopsi (If I going to have one) result negative, I will only keep monitoring it by other methods.

      Good luck to you & enjoy life.

       

  • Posted

    Did you have DRE and did Urologist found a nodule on your prostate?

    i am 71 years old and my Psa level is normal at 3.8 or 3.9 just tested but my Urologist wants to perform Biopsy on my prostate anyway. I cannot make up my mind and bit nervous about the infections and other post biopsy problems. Should I go for a second opinion?

    Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated.

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