Strong Bones Support Group
Posted , 13 users are following.
A few of us have been discussing ways to make our bones stronger without resorting to bisphosphonates. This seems like a good place to carry on the conversation.
3 likes, 148 replies
Posted , 13 users are following.
A few of us have been discussing ways to make our bones stronger without resorting to bisphosphonates. This seems like a good place to carry on the conversation.
3 likes, 148 replies
We want the community to be a useful resource for our users but it is important to remember that the community are not moderated or reviewed by doctors and so you should not rely on opinions or advice given by other users in respect of any healthcare matters. Always speak to your doctor before acting and in cases of emergency seek appropriate medical assistance immediately. Use of the community is subject to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy and steps will be taken to remove posts identified as being in breach of those terms.
Anhaga
Posted
After the diagnosis my GP recommended medication but by then I had started hearing about the potential for horrific side effects, so turned her down and started serious research. I started by talking to my friends. Two of them had successfully moved from osteoporosis range into osteopenia through non-medical means. One remains faithful to her regimen and continues to improve, the other has slacked off and become osteoporotic again. Suggestions from the more dedicated person included Nordic walking and parkour but she does not have polymyalgia (PMR). She also has taken various supplements under the advice of a herbalist. I am not ruling out her methods but am not following in her path, although I may take up Nordic walking sometime in the future. I tell you about her because her experience is what gives me real hope that non-pharmaceautical methods work. A sister-in-law was taking Fosamax but had to discontinue because of side effects (I don’t know what the side effects were).
I have done a lot of reading. You'll find several good sites on the internet but if they are heavily promoting certain products it is a good idea to balance their advice with what you read elsewhere. I am convinced that the following regimen is the best for me, and I expect to be adding to this, and modifying things, as I continue to learn more:
Exercise: I have a weighted walking vest which allows me to gradually add small amounts of weight. This is to challenge the skeleton to lay down more bone. I am learning Tai Chi which is not only excellent for improving balance (helps to avoid those bone-breaking falls) but has been shown to improve bone density. I use my pedometer to make sure I get 10,000 steps a day. At present this includes all my daily activity, not just my walks. I may increase this in the future. I also carry on with long-standing physio exercises for osteoarthritis and practice a bit of yoga. Have recently started doing nordic walking.
Diet - well balanced, with the following supplements:
Calcium
Vitamin D3
Vitamin K2 (K2-4 and/orK2-7, K2-7 is preferred) Please note that Vitamin K2 (not K1) is nearly absent from modern diets, and is the vitamin that guides calcium into our bones rather than letting it collect in our organs or inside our blood vessels. Unless you have access to grass fed cattle and their products, and free range hens eggs (not grain fed) you will almost certainly need to supplement this vitamin.
Sources of Vitamin A I've read conflicting advice about whether retinol or beta carotene is better, and have decided that natural sources (food, or maybe cod liver oil) are safer choices than taking a chance with the latest fad in supplements.
You should have enough vitamin E in your regular diet, otherwise make sure you get a mixed tocopherol version
Magnesium
Cod liver oil for A and D content.
The reading I have done includes websites and books. As I indicated above, always read with a critical eye and take the best ideas from everywhere. I don’t think anyone has all the answers, and also we are each different, will have varying risk factors and so forth. But I hope my experience gives you some ideas, and also some ammunition as you withstand the medical profession’s strangely strong idea that we must take their dangerous medicines!
I'll private message bibliography to anyone who asks.
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
Like Colin I am very impressed with your story.
I agree that we take various hints/suggestions from others and find out own best solution.
I am a -4 on the Dexa scale, so am well aware that I am at a high risk. I am trying to slowly improve myself/exercise/supplements/diet as best I can. Being on the HRT is apparently a good thing, over time, but obviously I have to get into a good regime now, to encompass what the future might bring. I am being referred to a Rheumatologist as I tried the AA and I did not like it, making me feeling a bit giddy. I have researched other things which I feel may be better for me in the future; though at the moment am hoping that what I am doing/will do will help. The GP thinks that it is probably the high doses of Prednisalone (I think that is the same as Preidnisone) as a child that could have brought the OP. but tells me there is no way to know for certain.
One questions: at what point can/does OP turn into Osteopenia? Or are they completely different?
I am sure what I am reading would explain this but I have not got that far yet.
Your weighted jacket sounds like a very good idea
Apologies; another question, what is Nordic Walking?
I would certainly be interested in seeing more of your bibliography, as I am strongly of the opinion that all knowledge is useful
I, myself, have been doing far more walking, and trying to exercise more; trying to balance with my other medical conditions.
Taking the K2, Zinc, Magnesium, Slow Release Vitamin C (the slow release is best for the immune system as it does what it says 'on the tin' so to speak. If we take one large dose of vitamin C we 'pee it out' as a past GP happily told me!
iCal-D3, natural Gelatin - for the soft tissue - Turmeric for joint pain.
Trying to eat more fish but find it hard!! So your suggestion of Cod Liver Oil a good one, though I have been wondering about Omega 3, 6, 9 instead of.
I would add that trying to relax more is important - so your yoga and T'ai Chi sensible, and funnily I have been wondering about T'ai Chi myself, Yoga I am not keen on as I pulled a muscle once!
I am constantly interested in whatever suggestions ppl might make as all information useful
kindest regards Carrie
Anhaga carrie94038
Posted
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
Just messaged you.....thank you, gonna take some time to read it all but much appreciated
Ahhhh re Nordic Walking....I might have to give that one a miss tho! lol
Vitamin C I started years ago on an alternative practictioner's advice, and I am sure it helps ward off a lot of infections I might otherwise catch. I do take a large dose, but suits me.
Vitamin E I must look into for sure. As it would be good for my skin too.
Yes I got told the numbers of the OP scale were arbitary....but interesting that a small woman is is likely to be osteopenic....
Hm re the Tai Chi....I didn't realise it was hard to learn....might still have a look for local classes though
Take care, kind regards Carrie
Juno-Irl-Dub Anhaga
Posted
Anhaga Juno-Irl-Dub
Posted
Anhaga carrie94038
Posted
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
:D .....Goes to show that perseverance pays off
Anything that improves co-ordination has to be good. I have been mulling it over for a while but not done anything about it yet....maybe you've given me the push I need! lol
.......think I might still give Nordic Walking a miss for now!! lol
kind regards Carrie
Juno-Irl-Dub Anhaga
Posted
I'm going to research Tai Chi as I think that could be quite enjoyable. Thanks, J.
J
Anhaga Juno-Irl-Dub
Posted
Anhaga
Posted
kathleen65757 Anhaga
Posted
I think we start with our diet and then build on it realising that we have impacted the quality of our foods by overtaxing the environment and even putting poisons into the soil in an endeavour to expedite growth.
Anyone who falls can break a bone and some people with osteoporosis fall and do not break a bone. It is not a given but precautions need to be taken by all elderly people.
I knew something was wrong when I hesitated taking fosamax (AA) when I take medications for other conditions like diabetes and Crohns.
The drugs for osteoporosis have been given too readily and the doctors have not been told of the dangers. I know this from my own lovely GP.
More thorough research needs to happen. People need to report all side effects not just stop the drugs as the warnings are not there and the drugs are said to be safe!
jill0890 kathleen65757
Posted
Aristotle13 kathleen65757
Posted
If I try to contact my Dr. about anything, I have a two month minimum wait and then he expects me to want a prescription or an examination. He just isn't interested in listening to and noting comments about side effects or problems with his prescribed medication. I have more luck with a locum. I would change surgeries but hearsay puts most of the local practices as being similar. Too busy chasing targets to have much interest in the people who they are there to serve.
kathleen65757 Aristotle13
Posted
My bones look okay on an X-ray which would have noted something like fragile. My GP was surprised at that. X-ray picked up two bulging discs and mild scoliosis and the latter is fairly common in older people.
The Bowen treatments helped my sacroiliac because I am not so susceptible to reacting to chairs but it was not cured.
I can feel problems in my back but most likely coming from the discs.
I am lucky to have such a good GP.
Just back from three and half weeks with the grandkids and I am missing them terribly, almost grieving. They live 800 kms away.
carrie94038 kathleen65757
Posted
How interesting that you hesitated with AA like me; I have a hodge podge of other medical complaints and quite happily take what I need for them without question ie asthma, painkillers for the osteo arthritis/M.E./Fibromyalgia, but something made me check out the AA and now I am trying to follow a healthier diet, exercise more as best I can, am on HRT which in theory I am told will help, and am waiting to see a Rheumatologist.
Interesting what you say about not everyone with OP breaking bones too which is something I kind of assumed. You are lucky to have a lovely GP and I agree the Doctors do seem to give you the AA too readily.
Take care, kind regards Carrie
carrie94038 Aristotle13
Posted
kindest regards Carrie
Anhaga Aristotle13
Posted
Anhaga kathleen65757
Posted
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
xx
Anhaga carrie94038
Posted
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
jill0890 carrie94038
Posted
I'm 54 so we are nip and tuck!
Aristotle13 carrie94038
Posted
Hi Carrie, Eileen, Jean, Jill & Kathleen
Good wishes for your healthy bones to all of you.
Most of you are aware of my determination to heal myself without AA or any other engine cleaning agents.
For me, this involves getting the supplements right, getting the diet right, getting the alkaline / acid balance correct and maintained, and exercising every day.
I am luckier than most who are trying this in that my OP was discovered at a fairly early stage and I only have minor OA which doesn't affect my ankles and only my right knee a little. So I am able to pursue the stepping / jumping exercise regime (with care).
I had absolutely no problems with the stepping on and stepping off a 7.5cm (3 inches) step and usually do 50 step on and 50 step off in sequence.
The jumping was different in that I hadn't attempted any form of jumping for many years and I had to work up to this gradually by just jumping on the spot. Once I found that I could do 10 of those without any problems, I began jumping onto and off the step, both feet together and landing rather flat footed but not enough to jar my spine. The all took place a couple of weeks ago and I now find that I can manage 50 on / off jumps in one session without too much trouble. At home, I have made a similar step to the one at the gym so that I can exercise every day and hopefully not seize up too quickly. The book and a trainer at the gym both suggest that a skipping rope could afford extra benefit so I need to visit the local sports shop and see if they have something suitable.
The supplements are slowly coming under control and I have the list of 18 as suggested by the book. Because some of these seem to work against each other, sorting out the daily order is another minor task to take care of. I found an all-in-one pill on an American site which would have been eminently suitable but they have been discouraged from mailing to the UK. So it's back to do-it-yourself. The alkaline / acid thing may take some sorting out but it's only a matter of time. Have to obtain some dip-sticks (graduated), first. The food is also going to be awkward since I have to consider my wife and particularly my daughter as well. My daughter has many more food intolerances than I, and some are quite serious.
I'm more than three-quarters of the way through the book and have learnt much although how much will stick is yet to be tested. I also have the book from the other bones site and have yet to begin that (only so many hours in a day).
When I find significant items, I do try to post the information so that all may appraise it and make their own decisions. I will make my own decisions but am happy to change my mind if someone or some book comes up with a better answer.
One of the best decisions I made was to give up AA. Haven't looked back since. The next best decision was to eat a kiwi-fruit a day (small bag of six is 59p) for six days and not on the seventh day. Many vitamins in kiwifruit and a bit wary of overdosing. Obviously I take calcium, vitamins D3, K2, B complex, zinc, copper, magnesium and folic acid at the moment. I'm not certain that I need the others just now.
That may change. Also eat apples, bananas, plums, dried sticky prunes (6 per day) and pineapple chunks. I also only have one caffeinated drink a day and will have my last mini white wine this evening. I practise the keeping calm thing so that I keep my acid levels lowish.
So I'm getting there slowly and I am willing to use any information that anyone else has the pertains to the better bones project that I am putting together for myself with a little help from my friends.
Sorry that this is all about me but I needed to clarify for myself (me again) where I was coming from and where I am going.
Kindest regards to all
May your bones strengthen and become more dense.
Aristotle
aka Colin.
carrie94038 jill0890
Posted
carrie94038 Aristotle13
Posted
Congratulations Colin on all you have done I am still working my way thru the book so am a bit behind - other stuff has got in the way at the moment unfortunately and time seems to race thru each day at an alarming speed - I am now taking a one vitamin multivitality gold as well which includes a lot of the B vitamins and the copper, this is as well as my icalD, magnesium, vit c, K2, Zinc ....and I am still taking the natural gelatin in the hope that is 'oiling the joints' so to speak! I stopped the turmeric as my skin was playing up, but am beginning to wonder if it was indeed helping the pain levels as my wrists are far more painful at the moment I am thinking of also getting a cod liver oil supplement as I am not keen on oily fish! I am trying to walk daily, and to do a little more exercise if I am able....I'm also still doing my hand exercises as the soft tissue in my wrists after break last year especially where I had to have pins to support the bones, are being rather stubborn in doing what I and the physio wish!!
Please do not apologise for clarifying things Colin, I am eager to learn all I can and feel all information is good and something I can try or look into I think supporting each other as best we can is a big step
I do hope Pauline not suffering too much and you had a good weekend. Fairly busy one here so I must admit to feeling rather tired this evening so apologies if I do not reply again this evening.
Hear hear on your 'may your bones strengthen and become more dense'! :D
Will try and talk more another occasion but as I said ...tired tonight!
Please take care all and may all our pain lessen
kindest regards Carrie
jill0890 carrie94038
Posted
I'm having a hard time figuring out how to private message you. So could you private message me to tell me the name of the book?
Thank you!
Jill
Aristotle13 jill0890
Posted
Find one of Carrie's posts and click on the envelope under her * number and the screen will come up for messaging.
Colin
jill0890 Aristotle13
Posted
Handbrake Aristotle13
Posted
Kindest regards
Patty
carrie94038 jill0890
Posted
Have messaged you now with it
kind regards Carrie
jill0890 carrie94038
Posted
jill0890 carrie94038
Posted
I didn't get the message.....
Handbrake Aristotle13
Posted
Handbrake carrie94038
Posted
carrie94038 Handbrake
Posted
All I know is that my Dr and the National Osteoporosis Society as well as other information I have read seem to point that if my oestrogen levels increase with my HRT then it will help protect my bones. The book I am reading...can private message you if interested...Colin passed the details on to me....seems to show varying data as obviously HRT has varying effects on our body. HRT does not seem to be the preferred use for OP; just one angle/aspect. It seems to have to be weighed up with other medical issues each person is going through/suffering with. EG if breast cancer runs in ones family as it does with a friend, then the GP will stop HRT fast! It seems a very moot issue. If I were you I would discuss it with your GP and see what they say. Good luck. kind regards Carrie
carrie94038 Aristotle13
Posted
Interesting....I had forgotten about the acid/alkaline balance....oranges tend to upset my asthma else I would eat more of them I know antibiotics affect things which is why I take or try and remember to take (!) an acidophillus supplement to balance the good and bad bacteria out in the gut Eating yoghurt would have the same effect apparently but would have to be taken daily.....there is something else, the name of which escapes me at mo.
kind regards Carrie
carrie94038 jill0890
Posted
Anhaga carrie94038
Posted
Anhaga Handbrake
Posted
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
Do you mean like natural oestrogen or progesterone? As I tried that from a well known company firstly and it did nothing. Was on the pill for years prior and it suited me; I appreciate it doesn't suit everyone though. At the moment I feel it was the right decision for me But thank you
kind regards Carrie
Anhaga carrie94038
Posted
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
Interesting and thank you. Like all things, I guess we have to weigh up the pros and cons and do what feels right for us
kind regards Carrie
Handbrake Anhaga
Posted
Thank you for your comments, I stopped HRT ( trial) when my Dr confirmed polymyalgia and agreed to start prednisolone. An interesting thing happened though whilst taking it, pains in my hips subsided then subsequently returned once I reached prednisolone doses of 2mg or less. I didn't give it much thought at the time. I've also found out that soy isoflavine of 35 mg a day for 12 weeks can have a positive effect on bone density,plasma lipids and cognitive abilities post menapause but over 75 gm can cause lumber bone loss as do progesterone creams used with soy isoflavines.
Anhaga Handbrake
Posted
Handbrake carrie94038
Posted
yes alkaline diet is an interesting one,interesting findings for me were finding that raisins were strongly alkaline yet fish was acidic! (Think I was surprised that a good source of calcium wasn't so good for alkaline diet requirements! ) this author claimed to have built up his bone density with magnesium supplements alone.
Handbrake Anhaga
Posted
Anhaga Handbrake
Posted
LayneTX Anhaga
Posted
Handbrake LayneTX
Posted
jill0890 carrie94038
Posted
NO!! I haven't gotten it yet!!! I sent you a message... did you get that? Thought maybe if you responded to that i would get it...
carrie94038 Handbrake
Posted
Interesting that the prednisalone seems to need a certain strength for the pain to ease off. As Jean says it is quite a balancing act and so not
easy
Soy Isaflavones I was on for a while too until the HRT and of course the Eastern side of the world eat far more soya products than us and when I was researching a way forward for me I tried eating more soya. That has fallen by the wayside a little now unfortunately. I didn't know they could have a positive effect on our bones though at certain levels, so maybe I should be relooking at adding a bit more soya to my diet again.
kind regards Carrie
carrie94038 jill0890
Posted
Apologies, will check now for a message.
kind regards Carrie
carrie94038 Handbrake
Posted
Interesting.....it seems more and more that what suits one person isn't necessarily the right way for another and we just have to experiment and try until we hit the right way for us.
kind regards Carrie
carrie94038 jill0890
Posted
I have just private messaged you
kind regards Carrie
Anhaga carrie94038
Posted
As an example, a large study was done in 2009 about the acid/alkaline issue. The book was published years earlier.
carrie94038 Anhaga
Posted
Interesting....thank you
I will still plough thru the book but take on board what you say; I haven't done anything about soy yet ....I think my body is probably dealing with enough at present so baby steps with it all.
kind regards Carrie
Aristotle13 kathleen65757
Posted
A few minutes ago, I received the following post from Eileen:
Hi, Whowever gets this message first please pass it on. I'm having promblems with the site so I'm coming off altogether. Also its chaotic here I did post a message but it wouldnt go through
Love
Eileen
The is Colin now:
I have sent a reply and a PM with an email address in case she wants to chat sometime. I shall miss her.
Kindest regards
Colin