Stubborn Men or Pushy Doctors

Posted , 9 users are following.

Good Morning all.  I am pist off today and I just have to write this because I hope no other men go through this. It is a mans right to have any procedure he picks if he is well informed.  Well I have a friend that he daughters boyfriend is having surgery on Tuesday.  I ask her what kind is he having she told me I think it's called a TURP.  Well you guys know me Not a fan but if that is what you deside go for it.  Now he came in and he is about 60.  Had to have a catheter put in because he can't pee.  I ask him if a Turp is what he is having he said yes  I ask what did the doctor tell you about it.  He told me that he is going in with a little toll and make a small hole.  I ask him if he looked at the video.  He told me no.  I said that they are going in and are going to cut out at lease 80% of his prostate.  I ask him if the doctor told him about the side effects leaking, bleeding. incontinence pain and retro ejaculation.  He ask me what was that.  He then told me that the doctor told him that all will be the same and there will be no change   I told him that he should  have ran for the hills.  I ask him what type of test the doctor gave him to determine that his prostate is the problem.  I ask how big was it.  He said none and he has no idea.  He just had a catheter for 2 weeks because he could not pee.  I ask him did you get a second opinion he told me no.  He is taking this doctor word that he has only seen for 2 weeks.  I told him and his girlfriend he is rushing into surgery because he does not want to were a catheter and he is in pain.  He is letting the symptoms push him into surgery.  I think his prostate is fine and he has a problem is his bladder.  But you can not tell him anything.  I wish him well but he deserve anything he get.  I feel sorry for his girlfriend because she is going to have to put up with him.  My reason for writing this is that please men don't get pushed into any surgery without having all the test to determine what the problem is because once you start cutting away at the prostate there is no getting it back..  There are so many other procedures out there that may work just as good.  Even CIC can help.  Many men have healed there bladder and did not have to have surgery. Thank you all and I hope you have a very nice and healthy Easter  Ken 

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  • Posted

    I know we are talking about urology.  But, take McMaster's book, "Dereliction of Duty".  Some men listen to "leaders" - Kennedy, Johnson, McNamara - who think they know but don't really.  Some men don't want to make a decision.  Let someone who is a "professional" make the decision.  I value a good professional.  I also value my abililty to learn about things that are going to affect my life.  I also appreciate the thoughts of those who have gone before.  That's why I am on this site

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    • Posted

      Mark  I agree with you.  Alot of men do fellow someone else.  They don't want to pick for there self.  We have to start taking control of our bodys.  We are the one that have to deal with any side effects that happens.  Most doctor do not like to change.  The newer one do go for the new procedure.  I respect my doctor he has learn all the new procedures that are coming up today.  He has told me many time that he will not to a TURP on any of his patient unless it is the last resort.  There is to many things that can go wrong and you have to be very carefull because if your not they can cut one of many vein that in around the prostate and the bladder neck. And they you will really have some problems .  A doctor can tell us what he feel may work but in reality he does not know if it will work until he does it.  If it works fine but if not it on to something else.  I have learn many things on this site and I am greatfull to the many men on this site.  We can all learn form it.  If you don't take the information that we give. It is your fault not the doctors.  Take care guys and please don't be forced into anything by the doctors in this world.  Information is the key to our health.  Ken

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  • Posted

    Hi Ken,

    How sad and frustrating. I have friends like that. They blindly follow whatever a doctor tells them. 

    I don't suppose it would help if you told him that CIC could get off the Foley and give him time to look at less invasive options? If not, maybe the retro issue would resonate if it matters to him. Easy enough to show him an article that the majority of men who get TURP end up with retro.

    Jim

     

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    • Posted

      I know I feel sorry for him.  You could not tell him a thing.  This doctor had him blind sided.  And he said that a friend of his had a turp 2 years  he was fine  I told him just because he had a good outcome. he may not and you had no test.  He did not even know if his prostate was enlaged.  His GF just through help her hands.  She said you can tell him a thing.  But He will be sorry. (  Retro he did not know what that was )    I gave up  Ken
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  • Posted

    In most professions it is very easy to slip into the habit of always doing what you did yesterday. It is an easy decision. It is easier not to bother to learn many tricks when one trick is enough to get by. Same goes for the medical profession. Many health care professionals fall into the trap of only recommeding a procedure he is comfortable with doing. If it works 85% of the time that is good enough.

    Some doctors take a broader view. They will investigate new or "alternative" procedures and seek out others in their profession to learn from them or at least make a patient referal to them.

    But it is not just the doctors fault. It ia also the patient's fault. If the patient does not want to put the time or effort into his own health care then it is very easy to see just one doctor and let the doctor decide his fate. If it works out for him, if he is one of the 85%, he "wins". If not then he can blame the doctor. It is a way of not taking responsibility for his decisions. Either way, the patient pays the price with his health or his life. His choice.

    The same thing happens with politics. People tend to get what they deserve.

     

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  • Posted

    Ken,

    you continue with your old tactics of scaling people with TURP.

    Did you ever do detailed analysis of this problem?

    Obstructed urethra makes bladder work harder which is causing bladder trabeculation and detrusor muscle hyperactivity. When you clear obstruction and make urethra wander it solves urination problem.

    when you step on garden hose you hear water sound passing thru smaller caliber and your hear that sound and it sprays at the end of hose in all directions.

    Same here. 

    Is TURP only way to clear obstruction? Definitely NO. Is it one of the most effective?

    DEFINITELY YES.

    Most I f the patients recover just quickly and perfectly in week or two.

    Sex is great after Turp with no mess.

    MK

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    • Posted

      MK: When you clear obstruction and make urethra wander it solves urination problem.

      -----------

      Sometimes. In most cases depends on the pre-existing condition of the bladder. Using your analogy, even if no one is stepping on the garden hose, not much water will come out if the water (bladder) pressure is too low. That's why it's important to analyze the bladder as well as the prostastic obstruction before any type of prostate reduction surgery, such as TURP.

      Jim

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    • Posted

      Pre-existing condition will improve with the time once obstruction cleared. Bladder condition did not develop overnight and can not be cleared in one day. That is process that will continue improving and in mean time patient can be helped with medication until bladder get used to easy emptying.

      MK

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    • Posted

      Yes I still am and still will fight for a mans right to have the procedure that he picks  But If you are going to pick having a TURP  Make sure you are well informed and have all the information on it and get a second or third opinion.Making the pick because your tied of having a catheter is not the answer.  Turps are not being done much with the new urologist they are into the newer procedure.  It great because they are always learning.  To many old urologist only know one thing and are not willing to learn.   Turp is not the only procedure that can open you up to pee better but with the newer one they are less of a horror story.  Yes a turp year ago may have work but it take longer then 2 weeks to heal.  There have been many men on this site that have had a turp and have been still trying to heal from 6 month's to  year.  Some even wish they never did it.  I am happy that your sex left is good but there are men that can not have sex after and if they can they can't deal with retro.  They even stop having sex because it does not feel the same. PS  I LIKE THE MESS CLEAN UP IS MORE FUN THAT WAY.  Have a great day  Ken 

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    • Posted

      Also to many doctor are not while to help you heal your prostate they just want to cut away.    Why get rid of the prostate if the bladder is the problem.   Jim fix himself with CIC. Which the dactor told him he couldnt and he need a turp  Hetood up for himself and said no.  Ken
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    • Posted

      It again depends on the condition of the bladder. Some TURPs still result in chronic or acute retention that cannot be solely managed medically; those bladders will not necesssarily "get used to easy emptying" ;and some will require continued or permanent catherization leaving the patient no better off than before with the addition of any surgical trauma and side effects, including retro ejaculation.  

      Unfortunately, these realities are often not presented to the patient pre-surgery, nor are available tests such as urodynamics employed to give the patient a better idea of what might be expected. I'm glad yours went well and you enjoy your "no mess" orgasms. Not everyone's TURP goes well and not everyone enjoys dry orgasms. 

      Jim

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    • Posted

      For the OP and his friend, and for others interested, google "Re: Functional Outcomes After Transurethral Resection of the Prostate in Nursing Home Residents"

      While the study had limitations, only a dismal 4% of men who had pre-operative conditions requiring catherization were able to come off the catheter one year post surgery. This raises all sorts of questions including why they were operated on in the first place as the doctors perfoming the procedure should have had some body of anecdotal data to work with.

      Jim

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    • Posted

      I wonder what nursing homes. Some nursing homes don't provide very good care. Around here there's a few. They range from very good and very expensive to ones you wouldn't take your dog to. The bad ones give very bad medical care. Most of there docs are doing residency there and have never treated live ppl. The nursing staff is horrible as well. If your a senior they send you to a nursing home after surgery as well for rehab. So you can't lay in bed and get blood clots. If you see a doc once a week your lucky.

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    • Posted

      As I mentioned, the study definitely had limitations, but that shouldn't detract from the larger point I was trying to make that positive TURP outcomes are by no means assured, especially when the bladder is significantly compromised prior to surgery. It is in those cases where there should be more due dillgence both by patient and doctors as to whether the surgery should even be performed. Unfortunately, the reflexive pattern of operate first and pick up the pieces later, seems too common.

      Jim

       

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    • Posted

      My doc offered therapy first. From what I saw from my test results therapy would be useless. He's a great doc. Then you have docs like the last one Ken was discussing. Convincing ppl to have surgery and not doing any testing at all. That's crazy.

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    • Posted

      I would appreciate if you would not compare patients in 50's and 60's to nursing home residents.

      Please, compare apples to apples.

      I had my surgery on Wednesday afternoon, stayed overnight in the hospital and on Monday (4 days post op) I was working my regular hours 9-10 hrs daily. I can understand you if you live in Europe or Australia. There is taken 6-8 weeks of work.

      After radical prostatectomy for prostate Ca, I was at work on post op day #11 and never missed another day for Olmsted 6 months. My surgery was on November 2, 2016.

      MK

       

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    • Posted

      I wonder if they got permission to do the surgerys on the men.  I worked in a nursing home for 8 years from 80 to 88.  I took care of men and women that were the worst cases.  Alot of the men that are in there can't talk or know what is going on.  So  I don't know how they would get the information.  I use to help the nurses put in catheters and we had to watch the output. I'm going to have to look and see if I can find the post you read Jim.Things would happen in the nursing home but don't know about the orders.  Was a ward secretary for about a year.  Could not read half of the notes you know how doctors write.  I have taking care of my mother and my father when they got sick.  I moved to orlando to take care of my father in law and after my divorce I still took care of my mother in law when she got cancer.  I still take care for some people because there kids can't fine the time or don't care.  I think that is way I worry about the men on here and some of my friends.  A doctor can talk you into anything that he want to That is way you need to get a second opinion and get all the information you can.  Have as many tests that it takes for you to be sure on what ever procedure you do.  You are the one that is going to have it not the doctor he just moves on to another patient.  Sorry I went on a bet to far but to me my life is important and I am going to live it with all it benifits.  Take care all  Ken 

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    • Posted

      And I would appreciate if you hadn't gone off topic and once again attacked Ken's motivations. He started the thread, and if you read his post carefully it had less to do with the pros and cons of TURP and more to do with the importance of being an informed and involved patient in these types of decisions. 

      I probably should never have gotten involved and gone off topic myself, but your statement "When you clear obstruction and make urethra wander it solves urination problem." was much too general and misleading not to put into perpective. So I did and I'm done. 

      Jim

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    • Posted

      Thanks Jim  Your the best.  My doctor started one of my friends on CIC to see if he can help his bladder before they do anying else.  My doctor will try anything first before surgery.  Thanks again Buddy  Ken 
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    • Posted

      Good evening Jim and others.  Here's a update on the guy that had a turp done withot having any test done to fine out the main problem.  I saw his Girlfriend today and he was there.  He does not talk to me because he know he was wrong.  It has been over 2 month's since he had the turp.  All this time he has has a catheter in because he still can't pee.  He is started CIC on Monday the doctor told him that he had the catheter in to long.  His GF will be helping him because she has been doing CIC for 20 years.  This surgery did not help him at all and all it did is cause him more problem.  Can't pee, he also leaks were a pad. also has lost interest in sex and he can't get much of a erection.  Which was good before I was told.  Now this doctor is not going to do any more test because he feels that the prostate was the problem.  His prostate was only a little over 30mg and the doctor remove 80% .  I have no pity for him  He got what he wanted and deserves his problem .  I hope all have a good day and enjoy the rest of the weekend  Ken  

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    • Posted

      I think he had more then a swollen ego.  How can you say someone needs a turp with no test.  He should have gotten a second opinion but whats done is done.  I am so happy my doctor is not like that.  Hope your doing well  Thanks  Ken
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    • Posted

      Kenneth,

      you continue giving wrong information and misleading people who need help. Very infrequently urologists removes more than 50 % of prostatic tissue  to open urinary channel. NOT 80% AS YOU WRITE.

      Writing about TURP to inform people is good, but using wrong data is scary and it is not doing any good to anyone.

      Here is my stats: My prostate before TURP was estimated by ultrasound and DRE to be 40 gr. Urologist during TURP removed 7 grams which is <20% of total prostate weight. 

      Knowing my total prostate weight after RP (prostate Ca) was 37 grams and that was 5 months post TURP which means that US was pretty accurate.

      40-7=33. In time between Turp and RP my prostate gain 4 gr which adds for scar tissue formed after healing from TURP.

      in your friends case it might be neurogenic bladder which could resulting from protruding intervertebral discs, back injury, small stroke that went unattended (called TIA) or quite other number of factors.

      MK

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    • Posted

      Thank you for the information.  The information that I was told in the last post was told to me by his girlfriend.  I don't care what treatment a man has but get the test to see what the problem is this doctor did not.  The doctor schedule the turp after 2 times in the hospital and had to have a catheter put in.  The doctor told them that his prostate was a little over 30 gr and he got ride of 80%.  To me 30gr is not big.  The doctor did not tell them the size until after the surgery.  I think the doctor went in and there was no problem with the prostate and just did it anyway so he would not be wrong.  I told him that I throught it was his bladder giving him the problem.  But this doctor told him that it was his prostate was the problem.  I don't go to this hospital and I am happy that I have a doctor that does test.  This is what I was told.  Having any kind of surgery before you have tests is his fault and wrong.   Let him deal with his problem.  I'm happy all worked well for you that was your choise.  Have a good day.  PS  I only told what they told me.  Ken

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