Tapering bisoprolol. Bob52204

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Bob52204, I hope you find this new post, I literally lost the last I had written you. It is some where in a maze of other posts...

I have a couple questions if you would be so kind as to enlighten me.

You may recall I was tapering off of 10mg of bisoprolol. Currently I am at 5 and tomorrow will go to. 3.75 and a little...

As I make cuts in this drug I have found I will have 0-2 days of palpitations and low level anxiety. It then clears and I feel normal again.. only to return with the next cut..

I assume this is my body adjusting to a lower dose . And once done it is adjusted.

One of the questions I have is.. did you have this? I'm trying to figure out if I keep lowering the dose and making it through the adjustment if it will lessen or if it will simply return worse later.

While I know no one can predict the future .I trust your experience with this.

I did see a MD yesterday and discussed stopping this drug with him... he was rather flip and simply said if I had problems to increase the dose otherwise to lower it....which I guess is totally correct, I was just looking for a bit more guidance.

I did cut 1.25 mg and 3 days later another 1.25... and I learnt the way I usually do,.. the hard way... that it was too much too fast....after 3 rough days I have felt back to normal today....well, normal for being on this drug anyway, which is totally different from drug free normal..

I obviously want off of this as fast as safely possible..and am willing to go through a day or two of feeling uncomfortable to get there sooner as long as I'm not racing to a bad place...

Even when I have the "bad" days my RHR stays in the low 40s... I do have days with the first cut where it went to 52ish but no more... predrug... it was a reliable 64.. and my bp always is low....sometimes probably a little too low..

I guess I'm curious... did your heart rate and blood pressure increase as you lowered the dosage or does it happen after you are off just BAM.. ?

Again thank you for any information you can share

Sedgly

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  • Posted

    Hi Sedgly,

    I was on a lot lower dose only 1.25mg and only used it for 9 days as I really did not like this tablet. My Doctor did say to me to wean myself of them over the course of a week but I didn't want to wait that long. All I did was take a third of a tablet and then if I had too I would take some more. I did feel anxious and my pulse seemed like it was racing at times but I stuck to my guns and that third of a tablet was my last. For a few days I felt anxious but partly I think it was in my mind as was always waiting for the unpleasant with drawals but I knew what I was doing as I used to be an Alcohol and refused to go into detox so I cut a whole bottle of vodka which I had been drinking everyday for years down a quarter of a bottle each day and in 4 days I was Alcohol free and no with drawals at all. This was 8 years ago and I have never touched the stuff again. I know tablets are different but it's the same thing. Listen to your body only you know how you feel. Continue to safely reduce your tablets bit by bit and try and see if you start to feel better on a lower dose and eventually you will be off them. Sometimes I think we are given information which makes us more anxious which makes stopping something harder. I decided to stop the tablets my way and it worked the same with the Drink I knew how my body was reacting and if I felt I was stopping to quickly I could always take a little more of the tablet. This is just my experience and like I said I was on the low dose but only you know how you feel. Personally if I have to stop something I do it my way especially with the drink as I wasn't going to go into rehab for weeks on end and be pumped full of tablets and still go through the unpleasantness of detox and the way I did it was easy, no pain and in 4 days my body was free. Good luck and sorry for my long message I was just saying how cutting down anything is an individual experience but your body will tell you not the Doctors they just prescribe them without telling us all the bad side effects. 

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    • Posted

      Mandy, it's sounds as if you have fought some tough battles and won.

      I do believe we are each unique in our reactions, both to taking and stopping things.good luck.

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  • Posted

    I was only on 2.5mg I cut it back to q.25mg with minimal problems and still a very low heart rate at night. I went down to 1.25mg last November and csme of altogether in March. within 2 days my pulse was constantly above 100 all day but lower at night and my speech was speeded up this lasted till June. I now take magnesium taurate twice a day and my resting heart rate is in the 60s. I still think I have a way to go before my heart rate normalises if it ever will. My concentration is now good, my memory is much better and it is so good to feel clear headed again. I can't believe I was on beta blockers for 20 years snd no dr thought to query my symptoms. Good luck

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  • Posted

    I weaned myself off atenolol. I had previously had been given bisoprolol. The doc after much persuasion changed my Meds to atenolol. I'd had awful side effects from both beta blockers. I trusted the drs judgement and stupidity I thought that my symptoms was the permanent a fib! After reading posts on here,I realised that it was the beta blocker causing the problems. 

       Weaning off after 6 yrs of the beta blocker was very difficult. I suffered on and off for at least 4 months...not daily,but I had more palps ,increased tiredness,anxiety...in fact the side effects were more acute than when I was on these Meds. However, it's now 12 months since . I'm now beta blocker free! I'm a whole lot better...still have a fib, still erratic bum,but...I'm loads better. Just had an eye test..my vision is better, I can walk,not wobbly or feel leaden legs, I don't fall asleep in the afternoon,no more fuzzy head, hair not falling out...can think clearly,make decisions and depression lifted. 

       Beta blockers may be life savers for some...but not for me. 

    Keep cutting them...miss a day...be aware that you may suffer ,but hopefully you will find the withdrawal will disappear and you will feel a lot better.

      Thought I'd better mention that I reduced my med from 10 msg to 5 with drs permission,after that I decided to do the rest myself! Not clever! I did keep a record of blood pressure, then visited a new dr who said I was ok to be off them but to have bisoprolol in house in case I felt the need.

      One of the biggest problems I had was having a dr who would listen to my concerns. New drs at surgery almost every time I booked an appt. I felt it was a case of One size fits all! I'm still angry that I suffered for so long...6 yrs of hell. Maybe I was just unlucky,but I'm very Meds sceptic now. 

       Hopefully others are experiencing more positive results than I did. Good luck with your weaning off. The withdrawal will pass. 

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  • Posted

    Hi, sorry, I haven't seen this discussion till now.

    When I tried to quit Bisoprolol, I was at only 1,25Mg for 1 year. Actually, for a few Months I was taking 1,25Mg in the morning and 0,62 in the evening.

    Then for 2-3 Months I was lowering a dose slowly to 0,30 (one quarter of 1,25Mg).

    To be honest, I didn't have too much problems weaning off from 1,25 to 0,30.

    Now when I think of it, I didn't have higher heart rate, but I did have "bad days", which now I understand that it was a withdrawal.

    I felt ill in some strange way while weaning off from Bisoprolol. My heart was feeling strange, as if it was beating slow and yet as if it was very tired (while lowering a dose).

    Also, I had some muscle pain in all abdomen (this is because now when you lower a drug, you get more blood again in your muscles and they start to grow back). It felt as if you were in a gym for 24 hours and now you have a pain in all muscles.

    But I wasn't in a gym, I was barely walking back then since I couldn't breathe because of Beta blockers.

    So, I didn't have any anxiety. Just some minor palpitations and strange rhytms for like 10-30 seconds a few times per day.

    I thought: ok, this wasn't too bad, I will be soon off the drugs.

    And then I stopped taking them (going from 0,30 Mg to 0,00).

    Then nothing happened for around 2 weeks. I thought that nothing will happen and that I am fine. But then after 2-3 weeks off drugs, one morning suddenly my BP jumped to 150-160 (I always had a BP around 120-125 before drugs and aroun 100-110 on Bisoprolol). And my HR while resting jumped to 105 all day long.

    And then a real withdrawal kicked in.

    So, when I look back now, in my case, I didn't feel a withdrawal right away. It takes some time.

    I posted this before, but I will post again to explain in you with maths what happens with Bisoprolol in your blood.

    Info says that a half life of Bisoprolol is 12 hours. That means that in 12 hours, a level of a dose taken will drop to 50%.

    So, if you take 5Mg in the morning, then 12 hours later you will have 2,50 of that dose still in your blood.

    Now, this is how a drug accumulates in your blood.

    Day 1: 5 Mg taken. 12 hours later you will have 2,5Mg and 24 hours later you will have 1,25Mg of that dose in your blood.

    Day 2: you will have 1,25Mg from a Day 1 plus 5 Mg from today=6,25Mg 

    Day 3: you will have 0,32Mg from a Day1 + 1,25Mg from a day2 + 5Mg from today=6,57Mg

    Day 4: 0,08Mg from a day1 + 0,32Mg from day2 + 1,25Mg from day3 + 5Mg from today=6,65Mg etc.

    So, after some time, you will have a stable dose of around 7,0-7,5 Mg of a dose constantly in your bloodstream. That is roughly 150% of a taken dose (5Mg).

    Now, if you have been taking 5Mg for a few Months, you had 7,0 or 7,50Mg of Biso in your blood all the time.

    Now, let's see what slowly happens when you lower a dose. Let's say that you will lower from 5Mg to 4Mg:

    Day 1: 5 Mg, but you have accumulated 7,0 or more Mg

    Day 2: you take only 4 Mg. That will be 4Mg from today, 1,25mg from yesterday (from a 5Mg dose), 0,30 from 2 days ago (from a 5Mg dose) etc.=5,55 only from these 3 days (without adding previous days)

    Day 3: 4 Mg from today, 1mg from yesterday (from a 4Mg dose), + 0,30Mg (from a 5Mg dose)=5,30 from these 3 days

    Day 4: 4 Mg from today, 1 mg from yesterday + 0,25Mg=5,25 from these 3 days

    So, you see, it goes from 7,0 Mg on a day1, to 5,55 (roughly) on a day2, then 5,30 on a day3, then 5,25 on a day4.

    And I haven't added doses of previous 4-5-6-7-8-9-10 days.

    The point is: if you take a 5 Mg dose, after 5 days you will still have parts of that dose in your blood.

    And if you take 4Mg, you will also have parts of that dose in your blood in 5 days, but those amounts will be lower.

    So, when you lower a dose from 5Mg to 4Mg, you need at least 7-10 days until your body will get rid of those old 5Mg doses and until you finally get to a stable 4Mg dose.

    So, on a day 3 on a lower dose, you are basically having a lower dose for 2-3 days, but you still have lots of older, higher doses stored in your blood, from previous days, which still aren't excreted from your body.

    This is why, in my opinion, it would be better to wait for 5-10 days to se whether it will "kick" you.

    On the other hand, when I was weaning off for the 2nd time (Nebivolol this time), I was weaning for 6-8 Months and that time a withdrawal kicked me each time when I lowered a dose.

    So, with Bisoprolol, at least in my case, it kicked me after 2-3 weeks (maybe my body needed more time to kill all the Bisoprolol), while with Nebivolol, withdrawal kicked in way faster.

    Also, one more thing to consider, a drug doesn't work in this way, like:

    1,25 Mg will lower your HR for 10.

    2,50 will lower your HR for 20 (so, twice as much as 1,25Mg)

    It doesn't work that way. It is more like:

    1,25 will lower heart rate for let's say 10 points

    2,50 will lower it for 15 (and not 20)

    5,00 will lower it for 18

    7,50 will lower it for 20

    10,00 will lower it for 22

    So, people may think: 10Mg dose is twice as strong as 5Mg or 8 times stronger than 1,25Mg dose.

    It is not. It is more like twice as strong as a 1,25Mg dose actually.

    In other words: you get the highest effect when you go from 0 to 1,25Mg.

    And each dose after that lowers a HR and BP less and less.

    So, to some extent, going from 10Mg to 5Mg is probably easier than going from 1,25 to 0,60Mg, beacuse again, the difference between 5 mg and 10 Mg is only +4 in lower HR.

    While a difference from 0 to 1,25 Mg is around 10 beats.

    So, a lot of people had the biggest problems while quitting final doses.

    I have wrote a lot of things in this post, and I am not sure whether I have answered your question.

    Feel free to ask whatever you need.

    My opinion, try to slow down when you come to 2,50Mg. You should have less side effects on that dose, and maybe you should stay on that dose 10-15 days to see what will happen when you stay for some time on the same dose. Whether it will "kick" you or you will be fine.

    If it will kick you, stay on the same dose until you will feel better.

    If you will feel fine, lower it further, but slower.

    Remember, going from 10,0 to 8,75Mg is way easier than going from 2,50 to 1,25Mg, because the effects of lower doses are way stronger (or differences of affects to your HR and BP are stronger between lower doses).

    Good luck

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    • Posted

      Again thank you for all the information. It all makes perfect sense to me.

      I am wondering if there is a noted difference between bisoprolol and bisoprolol fumerate.

      Again it comes down to pill size.. to attempt a taper of 1.25 of bisoprolol is impossible to do with any accuracy.. only by taking a tiny 5mg pill, cutting it into quarters and then trimming as you suggested in the past would it even be possible..

      I see the bisoprolol fumerate comes in 2.5 and 1.25 mg ..however I assume it is a different drug.. Dr. Google tells me they both have the same amount of bisoprolol but not what is actually in them...ie the difference..

      I have employed what I call the crumb method as in I took 5mg minus a crumb for a few days then eventually 3.75 plus a crumb..then with a smaller crumb and eventually no crumb...

      I had an Ekg done a few days ago and they tell me I am still bradycardic and to lower the bisoprolol...I told them I am doing it as fast as I slowly can.. as I said I am now at 3/4 of a pill or 3.75mg..... my bp is still low, heart rate is still slow and frequently feel like I have no blood in my limbs...I will hope for improvement at 1/2 pill..2.5mg..

      Again, thanks for your input

      Sedgly

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    • Posted

      It could be that it is just a different name, because of legal reasons.

      On the other hand, they could have different peak times and half life, for example that one drug needs 12 hours to drop to 50% and the other one needs 18-24 hours.

      About your dilemma, on one hand you need to lower Bisoprolol since you have bradycardia, on the other hand, slowing too fast can cause problems.

      I don't know, listen to your body. If you are feeling fine currently with your way of tappering, then continue it.

      I hope that your HR will go up to normal levels when you come to 1,25 and 2,50 Mg doses.

      So, again, if you are feeling fine, maybe it would be better in your case to tapper faster until 2,50 and 1,25Mg dose.

      But be careful, and if you'll have some tachycardia or huge problems, call a doc or go to ER.

      Good luck

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    • Posted

      Just in case anyone else should come here searching for what I was.

      After speaking with multiple pharmacies I am convinced the bisoprolol and bisoprolol fumerate are the same... in the U.S. the smallest pill sold is 5mg...

      In many many other countries you can get pills that are 1.25, 2.5, 3.75 etc

      Sure would be much easier to taper with those doses.

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    • Posted

      Sometimes fear is just fear.....

      On Tuesday I was told to get off the bisoprolol immediately...when I pushed that I wasn't comfortable stopping at 2.5 mg I was given till Friday..

      So on Tuesday I took 2.5mg. On Wednesday 1.88 or 3/8 of a pill... on Thursday 1.25 or 1/4 of a pill and today .62 or 1/8 of a pill tomorrow I will take a crumb...as close to a 16th as I can get

      I took bisoprolol for 3 months in the end... the early cuts brought palpitations in the form of pvcs and anxiety coupled with chest tightness.....the latter cuts of this week were unremarkable...

      At 1.88 all of the fear and anxiety of stopping this drug dissipated...I will check back in a month or two to leave the final all clear...thanks to all here, and especially Bob for all the information and support through a very trying time.

      Sedge.

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    • Posted

      Welllllllllll, a month or two is not up and there is no all clear....that's the reality of it

      Today is day 6 of no bisoprolol after the forced rapid taper of the 2.5 mg.... I spent the day in the ER.

      Heart rate rocking 160... bp out of sight.....inappropriate sinus tachycardia... with high bp...

      The doctor who did the forced stop told me I needed to take 60mg propranolol twice a day.....

      I did a propranolol taper back in 2014 and ended up licking propranolol dust off my finger to get off...it was very unpleasant

      No way in hell I was going on that much of it.......btw, the drug she wanted to start me on, the reason I had to rush off the bisoprolol, she changed her mind...May start it next month...

      After finding in the ER that my heart was staying in sinus rhythm the ER doc checked with cardiologist and said go back on bisoprolol at 2.5 mg to stabilize...

      So I sadly took 1.25..... resting heart rate is now in 60s.....

      I'd like to wring the neck of Dr. You have to stop it right now.....and my own for listening to her....

      I cried a few tears over this......once I'm stable I will try again to taper slowly......

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    • Posted

      Hi Sedgly,

      Sounds like you have had a terrible time and what was the Dr thinking of. I hate taking any types of tablets as I seem to get all the nasty side effects. I weaned myself of Bisoprolol as I hated them and I feel so much better now. I've seen my Cardiologist and am now waiting for an Echocardiogram but I'm no longer on any tablets. I really feel for you having to have suffered like this and this is why I don't really trust some doctors as they dish out these tablets which make us ill then say stop without really looking at all the risks. I hope that you are feeling better now but I know that I won't take any drugs again unless it's 1000% needed. Good luck 😉 

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    • Posted

      sorry to hear that Sedgly. My heart was like a rsce horse from march to June all day every day between 100 and and 155. I have a fitbit when it was faster I was walking or moving around so I would stop until it went into the 120s again. I know my maximum heart rate is supposed to be around 150. It obviously worried me but I had read all Bobs stuff and I hoped eventuslly my heart would slow down. It has at rest its in the lower 60s when I move about its still brlow 100 and when I go out wslking its around 120 at the most.

      Ots been a very difficult year but I feel so clear headed now my memory is very good. I can read books and I feel like I am living a full life. Throughout all of this my BP has stayed within normal limits. Good luck stick with the slow withdrawal and hopefully all will be well.

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    • Posted

      Sedgly, sorry, but your doc is stupid.

      Sorry for saying this.

      I mean, you were forced to go from 10Mg to 0 way too fast.

      And you see, this happens to a lot of people. Docs said: nothing will happen. Quitting Beta blockers don't cause any problems.

      While people who have gone through the same will tell you: you can die.

      And what happened? Your HR jumped to 160 and you had a high blood pressure. You could have gotten a heart attack in those days.

      And then, your doc advises you to take Propranolol.

      What is the point?

      Why quitting one Beta blocker, going through a withdrawal and then starting another one?

      My advice: go back on 1,25Mg Bisoprolol, stay there for some time until you will be able to walk and live in a somewhat normal way. And then go slowly (1 week at least on each dose):

      3/4 of a dose

      1/2 of a dose

      1/4 of a dose

      Taking 1/4 each 2 days (for 10-14 days)

      Taking 1/4 each 3 days (for 14-21 days)

      Then quit

      You will survive that way.

      If you'll quit too fast or cold tukey, you will end at ER every time.

      I have personally weaned off for 2 months in the first attempt (from 1,25Mg to 0,0), and I still ended at ER twice with a HR 160+ and I had to go back on drugs.

      If you are sensitive to this drug and if you are having a strong withdrawal (which you are), you either need to stay on a drug forever or wean off slowly.

      Majority of docs don't have a clue about a withdrawal.

      If you have died 2 days ago, they would just say: oh well, that lady had some heart problems and a high blood pressure. It happens.

      Yes, it happens because you have wuit Beta blockers cold turkey and you could have died.

      Good luck and do it slowly.

      Listen to your body and people who have been through the same hell.

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    • Posted

      It will get better and better over time when you will get into a better shape due to walking, doing a normal housework etc.

      A few Months ago, my HR was around 90-100-110 when I was walking.

      Now my resting HR is 60-70, and when I walk, my HR is 80-90.

      When your heart is weak and out of shape (due to Beta blockers or due to a long inactivity), it beats faster during an activity.

      As you get into a better shape, it will beat slower and slower while walking and doing normal things.

      Professional athletes have extremely low resting HR (like 40s) since their hearts are so strong and they can pump as much blood with 40 beats per minute, as our hearts (from normal people) in 60-70 beats.

      Also, while walking, if you are out of shape, your HR will be 110-120-130 and similar.

      If you are in a normal shape, it will be, let's say 80-90.

      But if you are an athlete, your HR may be even lower while walking, like 60-70-80.

      I am trying to say: it will get better over time. 

      1. time alone, as it passes by, will heal your heart (as a muscle) which was out of shape. It will just get stronger and stronger with a normal resting beating, while sleeping and similar

      2. on the other hand, you will do more and more walking, activity and housework and that will also make your heart stronger and stronger

      So, both your resting HR and a HR while walking will get lower and lower over years. Time and activity will make it better.

       

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    • Posted

      Thanks Bob

      So here's the thing...I only took the 1.25... resting heart rate is fine.. 60s but if i stand it's 113..

      So I was thinking I would give it two days to up titrate and see where it is.. do you think that's right or should I go ahead to more?

      I debated with myself going to 1/2tablet,2.5 mg or even 3/3 , 1.88 mg roughly..I just need to stabilize now and then get off.

      Thanks so much for your advice

      Sedge

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    • Posted

      Thanks Mandy, I too said no more drugs after I finally got off two years ago..

      However I found when you're in critical care and they are not sure you will make it you swallow what they through at you.

      I actually told them, "There's a list of what I cannot have...make sure it's not on the list and then don't tell me what it is or I won't take it"

      Hope your echo shows an all good.

      Sedgly

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    • Posted

      I'm sorry. Did you do a slow taper? Get off and still go through this?

      If it's something that has to be gone through I can do it....one day at a time....

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    • Posted

      Well, each person is different.

      It took me 7-8 Months to wean off from only 0,62 of Nebivolol in the 2nd attempt (the dosage of Bisoprolol and Nebivolol is the same).

      I was taking 1,25 to 1,88Mg of Bisoprolol for one year.

      Then I tried to quit and I didn't make it.

      Then I went back to BBs, this time Nebivolol.

      I was taking 1,25Mg for the first 2-3 weeks to calm down my heart after it jumped to 160+ a few times for no reason.

      When I felt better, I dropped to 0,62 (half a dose of 1,25Mg) and I planned to stay at 0,62Mg forever (I thought that I will have only mild side effects).

      But over time, I was dizzy all the time and had breathing problems (as if my lungs won't breathe on their own. As if they forgot how to breate, even while resting).

      That breathing problem was killing me (i was struggling to breathe all day long) and after 3 Months, I decided to lower the the dose to 0,40Mg or 0,30Mg, and I hoped that side effects will be gone on that dose and that the dose will still keep my HR down.

      But, side effects were still there, even on tiny doses, so I decided to try to quit a drug for the 2nd time.

      Then it took me 7-8 Months to drop from 0,62Mg to 0,0Mg.

      This is how it looked:

      Let's say that I was fine at 0,62.

      Resting HR around 60-65. HR while walking 80-90.

      Then I would lower a dose from 0,62Mg to 0,50Mg.

      And then I would feel horrible for 3-4 weeks.

      Resting HR would jump to 80-85-90 all day long, and activity and walking were impossible to do.

      After 3-4 weeks, HR would settle down, and my resting HR would drop to let's say 70-75.

      Then I would lower a dose to 0,40Mg, and the same thing again: resting heart rate would jump to 80-90 all day long, and occasionally jumping to 100-105 for 30 minutes.

      It would last for 3-4 weeks and then it would get better (resting HR 75-ish, roughly).

      Then I would drop again to 0,30. And the same hell again for 3-4 weeks.

      And I had these "mini" withdrawals for 5-6 times until I finally dropped to 0,00Mg.

      And of course, even at 0,00 Mg I felt bad for 40-45 days (a final withdrawal. This, a final one was again slightly stronger than jumps from 0,30 to 0,20 or from 0,20 to 0,10.

      So, if you read these forums, you can see that some people can go from 5Mg to 0,0Mg and nothing will happen.

      Some will feel bad only for 2-3 weeks.

      And some will feel bad for 3-6 Months.

      Some will end at ER or even die. or they will have to go back on drugs.

      I had huge problems with quitting a drug and I had to do it slowly.

      Again, I am now 7 Months off a drug, and I hope that I have made it this time.

      About you, I don't know.

      Maybe you should take 1,88 (3/4 of 2,50 Mg) BUT stay on that dose for some time until you will feel better.

      Don't rush things this time.

      You see, there is a chance (as I have explained a few weeks ago), that your withdrawal going from 5,00 to 4,00Mg wasn't over and yet you lowered a dose again to let's say 3,00 Mg.

      And then you will had "a double withdrawal" to some extent.

      And then, you still aren't fine, and you will drop again and again.

      So, more or less, you can have 2-3 withdrawals in the same time (if you get me).

      My advice, if you want to go slowly (similar to my way, but slightly faster, of course), you need to stay for some time on one dose until your body will feel somewhat normal. Don't rush things.

      When you will feel normal on 1,88Mg, then stay on that dose for additional 3-4 days (to get some positive mental strength) and say to yourself: ok, I a fine now, I have even enjoyed last few days! Let's drop now to 1,25. I will suffer for 2-3 weeks, but I will be fine soon!

      What I am trying to say: don't do it fast, like: I need to lower it again, and again, and again, and again. This is not a race.

      This process will drain your body and your mental strength.

      So, again, if you will feel bad for 20 days on a lower dose, once you will start to feel better, don't lower the dose right away, but take 2-3-4 days of "enjoying" on a higher dose and recharge your batteries, because soon when you'll lower a dose, you will have 20-30 days of hell.

      So, take a few days of relaxing between lowering doses and recharge your mental batteries.

      Because, if it will last 6-7-8 Months like in my case, or in cases of some other people, you will go nuts till then. So, you will need a few of "good days" between lowering doses in order to mentally survive this hell long term.

      So, do it slowly, relax when possible, and go one step at a time.

      If you will do it too fast, you can do more damage than good.

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    • Posted

      I've entered a whole new area of this....not a good one...

      When I did the forced cut from 2.5 down, I hit 1.25 and had pain in all my muscles

      I assumed it was from my thyroid dying and rushed over and had labs drawn... 2-3 days later I was off the bisoprolol and the pain was gone. I never correlated the two.

      Within 20minutes of restarting the 1.25 mg I had pain in my right hand, front of right thigh and of all places just below my left cheek bone... it was bad but not brutal.

      Last night it came in my left arm and hand. It is brutal. Probably a 9 on the 1-10 scale.

      I don't like taking drugs. Aleve, Motrin and ibuprofen all raise my bp... I took an 82mg aspirin...how long does this pain usually last?

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    • Posted

      I get it, slow is the only way out.... I was actually cutting only once a week with no problem before the 2.5.

      I did a bit of research last night and was horrified to find taking 1.25 of this drug is comparable to taking 2 x 10 mg pill of propranolol each day.

      What a potent drug....

      I drug out a scale that measures in grains and rechecked it measuring a small amount of salt...it is very accurate ..i will follow the schedule you gave me

      If I have problems after getting off I will take the propranolol to re taper..

      Tomorrow I see the MD and will get his opinion....

      Thanks again for all the information

      Btw: the pain subsided and left after a day... I have been on the 1.25 for 5 days now and have felt normal for 3....only exception is my heart rate is routinely in the 40s...doesn't feel great there......

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    • Posted

      Sedgly, a pain in muscles could be due to an anxiety.

      I had anxiety for 1-2 years while I was on Beta blockers, because:

      1. you are scared because of your original heart problems

      2. and then, you feel horrible on drugs. So, you are even more scared and anxious due to disease mixed with horrible side effects

      3. and then, if you try to quit drugs, you are on a verge of going to ER every day, plus your body can't handle adrenaline when you quit drugs, so you will have anxiety either way. So, it is even worse than in points 1 and 2.

      So, when you sum it all:

      1. you probably had some anxiety

      2. and now, anxiety will go through the roof during a withdrawal (it is a natural thing)

      My anxiety felt like:

      1. tightness in chest, tightness in abdomen, tightness in the neck, jaw and left arm

      2. plus, huge pain in all muscles in abdomen which lasted for weeks and months

      Now, when I am off drugs and when a withdrawal is finished, tightness and pain in muscles is gone...

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    • Posted

      Maybe, ...maybe it's anxiety, maybe it's thyroid caused and has nothing to do with medication and maybe it's a side effect of bisoprolol.

      Guess it really doesn't matter..

      I've never suffered from anxiety but yes, I do feel a small bit of apprehension waiting for this to be behind me.

      The pills are all cut and boxed for a slow gradual slide to nothing...

      I have only to open a box and take the content each day... if I ever have a need to hold I can simply measure the next one and match it...

      The difference day to day is so small I don't think it will be felt..

      I took the taper you presented to my MD today and he said it was excellent.

      Thanks again. I will check in again and let you know how it's going.

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    • Posted

      please continue to keep us posted. Every day I see a difference this morning I ran for the bus and my HR never went above 100

      happy days. Am now trying to lose weight and averaging 12000 steps a day as well as working around 30 - 50 hours a week. last year I thought I was going to die every night I went to bed exhausted and thought I wouldn't wake up. Am monitoring my BP weekly and have lowered amlodopine to 2.5mg to see if that and magnesium keeps it under control. 95%

      of the time its within normal limits, as an ex nurse I am annoyed at myself for being on these meds for 23 years at that time my BP was 220/115. Its been normal for years.

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    • Posted

      12,000 steps... I'm envious.... after having basically spent the last three months doing nothing but surviving. I put on the fit bit today....but i set my goal to 1000 steps, yes, that's pretty sad....but it is a start,.....from 0-1000....

      I got out on the trail and walked a half mile which put on just over 1300 steps....it's noon and I'm sitting at 1800....

      I feel pretty good for it....nothing like the pre hospital days...but as I say, ..a start...

      I just finished my week and a half of 1.25 mg......all is settled.... now doing the week of .93 mg.... aside from heart rate being a little low I cannot tell I am taking it.... rhr still dips into 40s....

      Only nervousness I have is once I get to .3125mg (1/16 of a pill) I fear how stopping it will be.....that won't be for a few weeks and as I said, I think if there is a problem I will take propranolol.... only because it will be able to be reduced....larger weaker pills....

      I love hearing you are doing so well..it gives me hope....and as we all know...hope is a wonderful thing to have.

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    • Posted

      Bob, sorry to ask yet another question...

      How low of a dose did you eventually get down to?

      The lowest I can measure with accuracy is 1/16 of a pill or .31 mg. Do you think that will be low enough to avoid a rebound. This is .085 grains.

      It bothers me greatly that this drug is so strong. I have weeks left till I am there but am finding myself increasingly obsessed with finding a way to lower it to nothing....

      Thanks again

      Sedge

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    • Posted

      While quitting Bisoprolol, I went from 1,25 Mg to 0,20 Mg and I have quit after that.

      I didn't make it.

      In the 2nd attempt with Nebivolol (the same strength of doses), I went to 0,20 Mg, then 0,10 Mg and then even slightly lower.

      In the end, I was taking a dose once in 2 days for some time, and then once in 3 days.

      I have described in earlier topics, you don't have to worry that the doses need to be of the same size.

      For example, if the smallest you can cut it currently is 0,30Mg, then do this:

      Make 10 pills of a 0,30Mg dose.

      Then take a knife and do it by yourself, or ask a son/daughter/someone younger to try to cut those 0,30Mg doses with knife in half.

      So, you will get 0,15Mg doses then.

      The thing is, when you cut 10 doses of 0,30Mg in half, you will get 20 new doses.

      Out of those 20 doses, they won't be of the same size. But that is not a problem.

      My advice: when you make 20 doses of 0,15, just put them in a row from the biggest to the smallest (some of them will be 0,20Mg, some will be 0,15Mg, some will be 0,10Mg).

      And then, when you will finish with taking 0,30 Mg doses, just start with these newly created 0,15Mg doses, and start with the largest one (those pills which are now around 0,20Mg).

      That will roughly mean that you will take doses in this order:

      0,20 Mg

      0,20 Mg

      0,19

      0,18

      0,18

      0,17

      0,16

      0,15

      0,15

      0,15

      0,14

      0,14

      0,13

      0,12

      etc

      So, just take those 20 newly created doses, and start with the largest one.

      The smallest one out of those 20 newly created doses will be a dose for your 20th day. (around 0,10Mg)

      So, you see, it is not a problem if you can't cut current doses perfectly.

      Whatever dose you can cut perfectly, just cut it in half and then take those tiny parts one by one, day by day.

      With this method, I was cutting extremely small (almost like dust) parts.

      And this is how I managed to cut a pill into 0,20, and then 0,10 and then 0,05 (or tiny parts like dust or pieces of salt).

      So, don't worry about an equal size.

      Just do it by yourself, or ask someone else to cut a current dose in half.

       

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