Tapering bisoprolol. Bob52204

That's a classic anxiety.

In early stages of a withdrawal people have problems with elevated heart rate, high blood pressure, dizziness, nauses, pains, headaches.

Later you get anxiety and it lasts a few Months.

You will get random attacks when you will be scared to death by the simplest things, like dark, some noises in the house, a lightning, seing a dead man on a Tv.

Look why it is happening:

1. before drugs, you had 100% of adrenaline in your body. And your brain was affected by 100% of your adrenaline every day. That was normal.

2. when we start to take Beta blockers, then these drugs block one part of adrenaline receptors in our body (heart and brain), and that way, you get let's say only 60-70% of adrenaline. Other 30-40% of adrenaline can't reach our receptors.

So, a large part of your adrenaline receptors in your body are drugged/sleeping due Beta blockers.

Adrenaline in general gets your heart beat faster and blood pressure going up in stress situations (fight or flight).

And now, when the adrenaline is blocked, that means that in stresfull life events, your heart and blood pressure will remain low, and that way you have lower chances for a heart attack due stress and shock.

But, you see, this mechanism brings problems if you want to quit these drugs one day.

So, your body is now adjusted to these lower levels of adrenaline (60-70%).

3. and now, when you quit drugs, those receptors in your body which were dead/sleeping due to drugs are now again alive and awake, and they haven't been in touch with adrenaline for years or months.

And now you suddenly have 100% of adrenaline in your body again.

But since your receptors have been sleeping, they are now extra sensitive to adrenaline, so to some extent, we could say that you  are now have roughly 120% of adrenaline compared to 100% before drugs.

This is why every tiny thing can scare you, why you get adrenaline surges, why you will feel strange all the time.

And then, over weeks and months, your body and receptors will re-learn how to cope with adrenaline again and you will be able to live normally again, and things like lightning, gunshots on a tv and similar won't scare you anymore.

But as you can see it in your case, this is a classic anxiety cuased by a beta blockers withdrawal.

You can drink a lot of water, try to look for some natural food and teas for anxiety etc.

They can slighty lower the symptoms during the worst first few weeks.

Thanks Ali I am assuming at some point my heart rate will probably speed up....guess I'm expecting it to be a little fast....for now it's still being really good.....it's just this darn nervousness inside of me....it is most unbearable....

The good is I'm down to less than an eighth of a pill....I'm hoping the anxiety is an adjustment and if I stay as close as I can to the .50mg that my body will adjust and it will go away....

I need to have labs drawn as I expect I'm hypothyroid and wonder if that is contributing to how I feel.....

Sedgly, if docs tell you that you have a thyroid problem or something, don't take new drugs.

As I have explained in a post above, this is a classic anxiety caused by a Beta blocker's withdrawal, because your adrenaline receptors are currently too sensitive to adrenaline (after being drugged and dead for a few months or years).

So, if docs offer you new drugs to solve this problem, don't take them since this is just a withdrawal and it will be gone in a few weeks or months, without new drugs.

I never had any thyroid problems and yet I had anxiety caused by a withdrawal, like lots of other people here.

 

Thanks Bob, I'm trying to sort it out. I don't think I have a thyroid problem. I know I do. I had Radioactive iodine to kill my thyroid on June 2 .

I am on no replacement thyroid meds. When I had my last labs drawn 3 weeks ago, I was .01 away from being hypo...

I cannot take any anxiety medication like benzodiazepines...

The only thing I take is this .39 mg of bisoprolol... again this morning at 4:30 am I woke to the feeling of something pouring inside of me followed by nauseousness, nervousness and all round feeling like crap...

I'm praying you are right and it will pass....

I am going to have to eventually go on thyroid meds as they tell me I can't survive without them.

So far at this 1/8 or 1/16 or whatever it is of this pill, my heart rate is still holding at a good place.

It's the thyroid problem that made me start the bisoprolol in the first place. That was all the beginning of May.

I am tired of everything. I am beaten. I concede.

Just a quick update. Had labs ran. Tsh normal range is (.340-4.820) mine was 44.046.. so more than a little out of range.

Anxiety has lifted by 50%. I am continuing with the slow slow taper of .04 mg or less per day. Currently at .326mg or roughly 1/15 of a pill.. hr and bp continue to hold...I feel mostly normal. Hoping the withdrawal is slow enough. Rhr is now 60.

Started thyroid meds this morning.

Sedgly, ok, you have thyroid problems.

But what I wanted to say is: both people who have and who don't have thyroid problems will have anxiety during a withdrawal.

So, it is not related with thyroid.

Ok, if you have problems with thyorid, it may be even worse or different, but still, majority of people experience an axiety because their adrenaline receptors are now alive again and they are too sensitive and they are reacting to everything.

Docs often say: oh, you have thyroid problems, this is the reason why you have an anxiety.

No, it's not. It is because of Beta blockers and because of a withdrawal.

The same as how when I had breathing problems, docs told me: you probably have some underlying lungs problem.

All tests showed that my lungs are fine, and a few Months later after quitting Beta blockers, my breathing is as normal as before Beta blockers.

So, Beta blockers were a reason for my breathing problems, and not lungs.

But, as always, docs don't have too much information about side effects of Beta blockers or about a wothdrawal, and they will say in 90% of cases: it is not because of Beta blockers. It must be something else. Beta blockers are a piece of cake, a very weak and a safe drug.

So, take whichever meds you need to take, but remember, you don't have anxiety only because of thyroid, but because of a withdrawal.

On one other internet forum, I have read a post by one user who said that he was a soldier in a gulf war. He never had an anxiety or similar problems in his life.

20-25 years later, when he tried to quit Beta blockers, he was watching a movie on a Tv and had too leave the room because a movie was "too stressful" and he thought that he will explode due to an adrenaline surge. (But it was just a random action movie, nothing special).

So, you see, watching a random movie on a Tv during a Beta blocker's withdrawal can be more stressful than actually being in a war.

But docs will always say: that's impossible. You probably had some underlying anxiety issues all your life. Beta blockers are not responsible for that.

I had anxiety for a few Months during weaning off and later after quitting.

But now, 7 Months off, I am 95% fine.

I still do get some adrenaline-rushes, but then I tell to myself: just breathe and calm down, this is just a wothdrawal and I am fine in 30 seconds.

While 4-5 Months ago, I would need 20-30 minutes to calm down after any stresful event.

So, it does get better slowly, as your adrenaline receptors re-learn how to cope with everyday life, with adrenaline, happiness, fear etc.

But it will last for some time, be prepared for that.

Oh Bob, thank you so much..

Today and last night the anxiety is maxed....it seems to come and go....frankly I'm glad it's from withdrawal....that means sooner or later it will go for good....

I am shaking inside, nauseous, can't handle watching television or having music on....it literally burns through my body. My body jerks around.... Morning is by far the worst time....

my muscles are so tight they are screaming in pain....I don't know what some of this is from and guess it doesn't matter as long as I finish the withdrawal slowly and make it off the bisoprolol and get leveled on the thyroid meds things should be good...

My heart rate and blood pressure continue to be good... rhr is still 60...probably still has adjusting to do....I'm praying for no rebound this time...

Thank you again, I feel as if you've thrown me a life line to hold onto...

lots of water, magnesium taurate capsules, and bananas helped me I had horrible cramps as well.I tried to keep busy but any time I sat down I was shaky and vouldn't slerp. now I feel so much better and calmer so will you in a few months time.

Just an update, I am at .15 of a pill ....roughly 1/32 of a pill....sounds ridiculous to say....Hoping it's not going too fast...spent last week doing .30 to .20.... Will try to stretch the .10s out all week..that will be 1/50 of a pill or less.....then doing .07 and .03 ......

I no longer feel anything when I take this crumb ....Hoping that is a good thing.....it was faster than I thought..mostly I think because I discovered when I went back on what I thought was a quarter, 1.25.. it was actually a lot less......

The anxiety is still here but has lessened by half....

Just waiting to see how it goes.....

About anxiety, it will probably last for some time.

A lot of people who had a withdrawal reported that anxiety lasted the longest out of all symptoms.

Some people had problems for a few weeks, some for a few Months.

I skipped my first day.....it was hell.....i tapered to .10 or 1/50 of a pill....then skipped a day.....felt perfectly normal the day I took it...and in fact perfectly normal all week.........but the day without...anxiety was again off the charts....heart rate was up some but not really high, ...in 80s instead of 60s...feel like I'm vibrating inside......yesterday was day to take it.....anxiety lifted....hr stayed in 60s when resting and normal when up and about.....today is day to skip and anxiety is back,.. maxed....heart rate back in 80s......

Based on the miniscule dose I've been on I don't think I have much residual left in my body.... I mean based on what you taught me... .10mg after 24 hours is .025 and after 48 hours is .006... at some point it has to stop being effective..... so with skipping a day I should have .1006 in my body...of course assuming it is not somehow stored in fat tissues and does have a 12hour half life.....

I am truly stunned that .10 makes such a large difference

Sedge

Unfortunately you may be like this on and off for a couple of months.   However it will get better.  Stick with it.  Drink more water.  Try magnesium Taurate and take one day at a time.   I just got my repeat ECG results and they were normal.   Things will settle down I hope tomorrow is a better one.

Thanks Ali, I wonder what purpose this serves if there is one...I mean on and off ....on and off.....I have to wonder if I would be tough enough to just stop taking it and how long it would take the anxiety to lessen....guess no-one can really say.

Can't take magnesium but am making sure to have magnesium rich food and lots of water.....glad to hear things are looking good for you.

Sedge

Well, it is not about how much of a drug you still have in your body BUT how much a drug has changed your body and how long will it take now to return to a normal state.

In short, majority of people have a normal heart rate without drugs around 70.

Blood pressure around 130.

12 breaths per minute.

100% of adrenaline affecting their nervous system.

Then when you start to take Beta blockers:

1. your heart will start to pump blood slower (HR 40-50-60 instead of 70)

2. your heart will pump less blood in each heartbeat than before (it will pump a lower amount of blood than before)

3. because aof this, your heart as a muscle will become weaker than before. This way, a heart will get tired less than before. But, on the other hand, it will be weaker as a muscle.

And now, if you quit taking BBs, you will need months until your heart as a muscle goes back to a normal state and gets stronger (as a muscle).

When a heart is stronger and in a good phisycal shape, it beats slower.

When your heart struggles to pump a required amount of blood in each heartbeat, it beats faster.

Professional athletes have very low resting heart rate, because their hearts are strong and they can pump a lot of blood (volume) in each hearbeat.

4. your lungs breathe much slower now

5. your blood pressure is way lower and your blood vessels are much wider now

6. your body now doesn't have to handle all the adrenaline. A part of adrenaline is blocked by beta blockers and because of that your HR and BP won't jump too much in stressful situations.

And when you quit BBs, you have 100s of altered mechanisms in your body and this is why you are feeling a withdrawal, until all those mechanisms return into a normal state (pre-Beta blockers).

An analogy would be: imagine that you broke your leg on several spots and you had an operation and you had to be in bed for 6 Months without moving.

You had to take some drugs also during that period, to heal your broken bones faster.

Now, after 6 Months, you will stop taking those drugs and you will have to start to walk slowly.

But now, you will need 6-12 Months until you will be able to walk normal again.

Because your body will be totally out of shape and your muscles in a leg will be very weak.

So, you won't be able to walk because your body is in a horrible condition now.

Not because of broken bones and not because of drugs which you had to take.

The same is with you now.

It is NOT about drugs anymore.

Now it is about your body trying to return into a normal state (pre-Beta blockers).

About anxiety, try to find some teas and foods on internet which can lower the anxiety.

Chamomile tea, green tea, hops, valerian, lemon balm, excercise, lavender, omega 3s etc

I used to take small doses of Valium (I couldn't handle resting HR 100-sih all the time and anxiety going through the roof all day long).

But if you don't want to take new drugs, you can look for some drugs (Valerian root) which work the same as Valium (relaxing your nervous system) but in a natural way.

This can help with too high resting HR and anxiety during the worst period.

I am not taking any drugs anymore (BBs, Valium, Valerian), but I needed some help during the worst 2-3 Months of withdrawal.

So, do you feel going on and off the drug every other day or two helps the body readjust to a normal state? Or would just staying off end it all sooner?

Well, taking a drug each 2 days and then each 3 days is the last part of weaning off.

It should help your body to wean off more easily.

When you take, for example 0,30Mg (1/4 of 1,25Mg dose) and if you just quit taking it, it may be too strong for a lot of people.

But when you start to take: 0,30 each 2 days and then 0,30 each 3 days for some time, it gives your body more time to readjust to the next dose which will be 0,00.

So, if you will quit right away=it will be very hard.

If you will take 0,30 every two days=it will be slightly easier long term.

My opinion, try to take a drug each 2 days and then each 3 days for some time (the lowest possible dose) and when you will finally feel slightly better on that dose (each 2-3 days), then quit completely (you will again have a withdrawal then, but that will be the last one).

Here's where I'm at.... the anxiety finally lifted.....it is gone, totally....I would be happy and doing the I'm good dance except......

My body is not liking the high dose of synthroid they put me on....original stupid doctor told me to take 175mcg as a start dose....dumped her after she had me stop the bisoprolol and then told me to start propranolol.....current doctor said he had never seen anyone started on that high of a dose....since I'd only taken it 2 days he said drop it to 100....and he would have only started me at 50 if I hadn't already been on 175.....

The problem is....I have adrenaline surges all night...last night I got 45minutes sleep...night before 4 hours....this is one of the reasons when you start this med that they put you on beta blockers.....

I've been trying to hold out, hoping part of the surges is from the withdrawal...I dread going back on this after I just went through hell getting off....but I believe i will probably have to.....

I guess I'm not sure what it is I wanted to hear.......I wonder if surges are somehow part of withdrawal....on the other hand it's fact that going on the synthroid causes them.....even with them, they wake me and burn through my body but my hr does not go outrageously high....

I actually feel pretty good aside from the tired and no sleep.....but they say the surging will damage my adrenal system and my body can't handle more damage.....

I guess.....do you have an opinion if any beta blocker is easier to withdraw from than another?

I don't know what else to do......if I take it sporadic....as in take it one day to block adrenaline and sleep and then not take it for 2-3days and continue this way and pray my body adjusts to the synthroid..do you think I would still be dependent on it and have withdrawal again when stopping it??

Thanks for any information

Sedge

About that synthroid, when did you start to take that drug?

About adrenaline surges, they are a classic symptom of Beta Blockers withdrawal.

As we have talked before: imagine if you have 100 adrenaline receptors in your body.

When your body pumps more adrenaline (because of fear, joy, stress, whatever happens), those receptors get more adrenaline and they send signals to your brain that something is happening.

Then your brain says: we need to raise heart rate, breathing and blood pressure, we are in danger (fight or flight).

This is a normal mechanism how our body/brain/heart respond in fear, joy and everything.

The thing is, if you have some heart condition, then these situations of extreme stress, fear or joy can be harmful, because every time when the adrenaline is pumped, heart rate and pressure will go up and there is a higher chance for a heart attack or for a dangerous arrhythmia during a fight or flight response.

This is why patients with heart problems, high BP and arrhythmias have to take Beta blockers.

This is what happens when you take drugs:

Before drugs you had let's say 100 adrenaline receptors (we have millions of those, but it will be easier to explain it this way).

Now, Beta blockers will "kill" or put to sleep let's say 50 out of 100 adrenaline receptors.

So, those receptors will be semi-dead, sleeping and they won't work anymore.

That means that before Beta blockers your body had 100 receptors, and now beta blockers will block 50 out of 100 receptors and you will have ONLY 50 receptors who actually work and receive adrenaline.

This is why a drug is called: Beta blocker. It is blocking beta adrenergic receptors, who are binding with hormones and adrenaline.

So, when we take Beta blockers, we can never be as much stressed as before beta blockers, because we get only 50% of adrenaline and we can't get as much as excited or stressed as before.

That means that our heart won't go into dangerous rates like 150, 180 and similar.

And our Blood pressure will remain lower.

On the other hand, the problem is that our body gets used to this new state when we have only 50% of adrenaline affecting our receptors.

So, there IS actually 100% of adrenaline in our blood, but only 50% of it get binded with beta receptors and the other 50% get wasted.

The problem is, our bodies are now used to a lowered amount of adrenaline.

And now, when we quit Beta blockers, those beta adrenergic receptors which were semi-dead/sleeping (for years) due to Beta blockers are now coming back into life and they start to receive adrenaline again.

But since those receptors were sleeping for 1-2-3-4-5 years (duration of taking beta blockers), then these receptors are now extremely sensitive to everything and they "forgot" how to work and cope with adrenaline.

In numbers:

Imagine that your Heart rate was 70 while resting before BBs.

And when you were in some fear, heart rate jumoed to 150 (normal fight or flight).

When you take BBs, your resting HR will drop to 50-60.

And when you are in fear, HR will jump only to 130, because BBs are blocking adrenaline receptors.

But now, when you quit drugs, receptors are TOO SENSITIVE, and heart rate will jump easily to 160-180 if you are afraid.

So, you see, currently you are under more stress than before Beta blockers.

So, those adrenaline surges which you feel now=is adrenaline flowing through your body and your receptors don't know how to handle it because they were dead/sleeping for years and they need to re-learn how to cope with adrenaline and stress.

Me and 1000s of other people had these problems for Months.

I don't know what synthroid drug is doing to you, but this is happening because of BB's withdrawal.

Also, please ask your doc NOT to go on new Beta blockers because you will experience this hell again when you will try to wean off.

If a synthroid drug is causing similar adrenaline problems, maybe you should quit Beta blockers now, wait for 1-2 months until you will be fine and free from anxiety (from a BB's withdrawal) and then start a new drug for thyroid problems?

But please don't go on BBs if you can't handle them.

And as said, you will go through all of this again when you will try to quit them in the future.

Hi Bob, it's been 2months... I took the last crumb of bisoprolol on August 17th... after two weeks things settled some.... I still have the adrenaline surges...mostly they wake me at night, 4-5 times each night...today they are appearing during the day also.....I'm hoping they eventually go away.....

They come with a feeling of being hot, increased heart rate and pressure moving to hands...usually last less than five minutes....is there any average time these take to leave?

Thanks for all the info

Sedgley