Afterlife ~ yes, or no?

Why, Marey, I believe you just helped me  .  Not too sure about Karma, she gets the bad rap for all the bad done in the world.   Also, we are all bodhissattva's.  Until we aren't.

Marey ~

Just another thought about "karma", doesn't karma give us a chance to ask for forgiveness? 

well karma is a natural law...its just what follows. but monks and nuns can intervene for us...so yes x you can stop bad karma ripening through good deeds, sincere regret and other efforts

Hello Marey,

I see your point. The world we know is cause and effect. Karma is the inevitable effect of what has gone before. You have set out above the ways those inevitable effects might be ameliorated. Have i understood you correctly?

Hello Marey

Karma is good for the soul.  There are however people in this world who lie and cast the blame for there wrongdoing upon others,  many have gone to meet the hangman on account of such folk.   The ones that lied have karma to deal with fair and square but ohh my!  those folk who were wrongfully accused and convicted  how does karma set about putting right such a dreadful and sad end?

This leads swiftly on to those who seek vengence, belief in God dictates it is not ours  to take.   Lets say,  a man is accused of a wrong doing,  by a the wrongdoer who lied through his teeth!!!   same man is duly found guilty by a jury of his peers.  This man can ask for forgiveness of he that accused,  but is made to suffer a lifetime by all himself,  karma deals with the 'real' villan but what does karma do to right the wrong of the innocent - how many life times does it take, and is history ever rewritten to put right into  the eyes of all who witnessed this wrong.   

This simple question is a path ( the life after death question)  like the path of life it has many turns and crossroads,  others join with their paths and may bring bridges or stumbling boulders with them,  soon a mat of many paths is created,   all life leads to the end of the day and god or karma has a jigsaw in thousands of pieces.

Mamma nature - she heaves her great mass and with a heave or a wriggle  puts our minds on matters bigger than ourselves.  

Jessie    ( who has wandered off the path ! )

 

Ok, I do agree with you to a degree.  However, if one doesn't feel any guilt, can the be suspect to "karma"?  I feel guilt and karma go hand and hand, you?

Asking for forgiveness is first, giving forgiveness is last.  How would karma fill that "void" if there is one?

 

I can see both your points however, there are some who do not believe "they will get what they deserve" (karma).  Again, that is w/i the realm of us being the "judge".  Only One has that power.

Frustrated

Well said, Jesse!  I'm happy you brought forth a new light on this.  Hopefully, there will be many views that one can interpret what they believe is true or what they've been taught to believe is true. 

The Road Less Traveled!

Frustrated

Hi frustrated,

"Asking for forgiveness is first, giving forgiveness is last." I don't quite follow that thought. Would you expand on it for me please.

I think I get your point although I cannot find my comment to which you reply. Yes, as I understand it, We should not even judge ourselves. That too belongs to Christ Jesus.

That is not to say we should ignore our training and our conscience and draw back from doing wicked and unkind things. It is more in the realm of thinking "I am a good person" or "I am a bad person". christ will decide on that sort of thing.

Doc!

Hi anne,

I think that is one of the points I was trying to wrestle with above. We do get an awful lot of pain and trouble in this world. Almost all humans have an inate belief that this life is not all that there is. There must 1001 (code for an unknowable huge number) ideas about the afterlife.  There is one man who knows. That is Jesus Christ. He was killed. Yet he brought himself back to life. By overcoming death as he said he would he authentiated that what he taught is true. But we are not puppets. The choice is ours.

Anne ~

It's all in and what you believe. I believe God forgives all...if they ask.  Those who suffer on earth are going to enter the kingdom and sit as kings and queens. (figuratively speaking) w/o pain (can you imagine that?).

Hang in there, Anne, sounds like you are in need (in our life) a huge hug and know things will get better.

Yes, Doc,

You know I admire  you!!  I do believe "free will" is what sets us all apart which is what I believe you meant when you said "the choice is ours", right?  Just because one doesn't believe in say, abortion, yet one believes it is within ourselves to decide, that doesn't mean that person is pro abortion, rather, for "free will" as we are not here to judge anyone, that's for you and your own savior to work out. 

I think if everyone would just remember that "free will" is set up so no one has to be the Judge (with some exceptions as those sent to prison, another topic altogether) our world just may be a better place. Just my thought on that.

Frustrated

I'm not sure I explained that clearly.

to put emphasis on "free will and judge".  If we trust (faith) and know (belief) that your maker (my case, God and his son Jesus Christ) will render the burden of everyone' mistakes (free will) and has the power w/i to forgive all of us, but we must ask for his forgiveness and the forgiveness of who we did wrong to.  False pride makes all the above impossible.  Right?

Yes frustrated, we can and do choose. Our problem is that God created not just the universe but mankind whom he set on this planet. He chooses too. Now that is awkward because if we do not choose what he chooses he does not want us anywhere he is - all the nice places.That only leaves the unpleasant places for those who prefer to think differently.

Now your second point, and it's a good one. We are free to choose but we are not free to judge our fellow human. None of us have been appointed to that task. Leaving criminal and civil law aside for the moment, God has appointed one man to be judge of all men, that is the man Jesus Christ. (Do I hear a gasp!) Well he is God, you are quite right.

I hope I got your point. If not please have another go replying to my reply.

Where is the proof that god exists and had a son who after being put to death came back to life?   The Bible has been translated / rewritten so many times already,  by people with their own agenda or being paid to do so for politacal reasons.  The only part of the bible I can go along with is the Moses story,  good one - to pull the people into line and give them law and order as the population of the time grew.   Don't believe he talked to god while he was getting some peace up a hill though,  he just came back down after a rest with a good scare story that the boogy man  would get them that did not live decent lives.  This was a sensible plan for the future and good politics for all concerned,  good man Moses - or the person that made up the story about him.

No offence is intended towards anyone by what I have written.   My belief is in Mother Nature, I see, feel and hear proof of her wonderful world every day,  I would however dearly love ( be able )  to  believe that there is a reason for each of us being born into this world.

Jessie.

HI frustrated, you have a great point there. Mankind tends to be proud and thinks God should be pleased with him or her.

But then what of God? We want a God we can trust. If God lets some really, really, really bad person off just because he asks, do you really want to trust such a God? Now this is really important. We are all here in this forum because we are hurting and afraid. We sense there is something more, something good, beyond our suffering. That something would make our present suffering worth while, or at least of no account ultimately. For that to work out we need a God who is trustworthy. Well there is a just mecognism. If a person says they are sorry for the bad things they have done, that is OK but they have to pay the price first. But they cannot pay the price. It is too big. Well, God himself pays the price in the person fo Jesus Christ who is God and man who gave his life to pay that price. So God is trustworthy.

Hi Jessie,

So glad you have joined in. Yes we all have lots we don't believe but you do believe in Mother Nature. I believe in Mother Nature too except my concept of her is the Creator God who himself is not the universe but stands outside the universe and brought into being all things. I find this way of looking at the big things fits more easilty with the frighting things of nature such as volcanoes and tsunamis. The awsome, wonderful things of nature also indicate the power and transcendent nature of the Creator God.

Oh heck no, not gasp from me! I totally agree with what you're saying!  I have to point out that God does choose where we will live etc..but isn't that part of his test in "faith" .  Geesh, I've always been told not to talk about politics and religion.  And here I am doing just that!  I just find it interesting how other's feel about this subject. There is no wrong or right way, it's all in how we feel about it.

Thanks Doc!  as I'm tired and shall get some much needed sleep.  It's hour 34 of being up w/o sleep! eeks! But, I am trying hard NOT to sleep during the daytime so here I am

Xx Frustrated <3>

Of course, it's his decision to forgive.  And in the Bible it states that we have to ask for forgiveness and it shall be received.  There are some people who in an opinion sake, may make a bad decision like perhaps stealing and one who murders, the two are so far apart on the spectrum that it's difficult to see how one can even compare, but it does.  The lesson that may need to be learned is to ask for forgiveness.  Who knows?  I feel strongly about this but it's not necessarily the correct way!  just sayin'

Will write later!

Nighters (soon)

  Xx and <3 doc!>

Or too proud to ask for forgiveness.  That's the "proud" I'm referring to, a "false pride".  And, yes, trust and you will receive!  What goes on with anyone else isn't "our" issue, right?  At least I don't think it is.

I have no reason not to trust. I see you point about forgiving someone of awful things.  But, that's where I believe we have to seperate ourselves as we are EACH individuals and ALL worthy.  Right?

Hi Jessie ~

I am not offended with what you posted.  That's why I love an open forum as we can all speak our own opinions.  No one should get angry because I think one way and you the other.  It's all good! 

Now, you're going to let out a laugh but, I believe God provided us with the beauties of "mother nature" whom is a  mythical creature and their intent is never to be taken literally; God, Jesus are bibical creatures where proof was and is shown that he did walk this earth and to be taken literally.  See the difference in conflict I'm having?

Thanks for posting!

Frustrated

Doc, it's all good!  WE in many ways think alike.  Even if we didn't, it doesn't change you as a person, which I might say is dynamic, caring and compassionate person! 

<3 xx frustrated xx="">

Come on frustrated. That stuff about not talking politics and religion is for ;polite society' You know where no one is sincere, where truth is unknown, where knives are worn in the back. No, here we are loving, caring and honest - and we cannot manage without each other. BBIIGGGG hugs to you both, and another for good measure (and because it does me good.)

Yes yes yes that's it but it has one important qualification. If we ask forgiveness we shall have it so long as we forgive those who have wronged us when they ask forgiveness of us. Do you remember "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us."?

Dear frustrated, I do hope you sleep tonight like a baby

Nighters Doc!

A standing ovation for that, frustrated. Doc! We mind our business and leave Christ to mind his.  Oh WOW! another round of applause for frustrated. Doc!

Sorry guys. I know there is more to read but I am done. Perhaps I will claim my years after all. A bit selective do I hear you say. Well may be, but nighters : nightnight ; sweet dreams to you kkylie and to you frustrated. I really am going to drop into bed. A tired and sleepy and happy Doc! oh how I love chatting to you both. Nighters Doc! nightnight Doc! ni .......

Hello frustrated

thanks for the reply.  You have me puzzled though lol,  mamma nature is all powerful and as GeorgeGG points out can bring about great havoc, - nothing 'mythical' about those events.  Are you perhaps refering to witches, the word witch being of German origin and spelled wych which translates as 'wise'.  I would agree about the pointed hat and broom flying creatures being mythical.  

I asked earlier where is the proof of gods existance and the son he created,  yeah sure I have read the stories in the bible, but as I said, that book has had many translations, a lot has in fact been left out from original writtings,  a lot has been lost in the translations and no doubt a lot added.  It is in fact the 'literal'  you speak of in connection to God and Jesus that I have a problem with!    

Jessie.

Hello George,

Not too sure I follow,    could you mean that God created the world and mankind, and that Mother Nature threw in some interest and animals?

Now over the years man has evolved, still is as knowledge grows, and a lot of animals have vanished,  the interest as in natural events stays the same as always has been.  

Love this subject lol,  is so big and has so many add ons.  

Jessie

Hello George,

can I butt in and ask,  if a person does wrong and at the of that day asks via prayer for forgiveness from God,  sleep well that night in the certain belief that forgivness has been given,  and then a couple of days later comit the self same wrong - - - -   he says sorry again, and believes he will be forgiven by the highest authority.  et al.   Or  is forgivness for all wrong doing asked once after death, which means there needs to be life, and believing that having asked will be given,  then goes on to heaven.  But:  if this is so,  all wrongs are forgiven because it was asked for,  all go to heaven and there is no need at all for the other place, lest it be for those who are not sorry for what they have done.

Have I just answered my own question lol ?     Thoughts please.

Jessie.

Weeeeel frustrated, if I gently turn what you wrote on its head then we are in perfect agreement. Let me rephrase and develop that.We are all equally worthy in Christ, worthy with his perfect worth. If we are thinking of NOT forgiving our neighbour we are each seriously unworthy. How dare I who need forgiveness hold my neighbour as faulty when I too am at fault. The logic of forgiveness is very sharp.

Yes indeed frustrated. Let us never be afraid of disagreeing; let me rather be afraid to cease loving you my neighbour and friend in adversity, Doc!

Hello Jessie,

that is a powerful point you make to frustrated. I am exactly in the same basic position as you. Were you around to see God create the universe? Of course not. Was I around when Mother Nature began. Of course not. You believe in Mother Nature; I believe in God the self existant creator; It is a matter of faith for both of us.

Hello Jessie,

I am sorry that I cannot find my remarks to which you refer. This conversation has become large and the structure unclear. I shall try to jump in. If i am off your point please reply again and I will try again.

I did not mean to give the impression that God made some things and Mother Nature made others. My belief is that a transcendent God made everything that is made.I am what is often called a Creationist whereas most Western people are Evolutionists.

I do agree with you that the universe is absolutely chock full of such interesting things. There seems no end to the wonders we can learn about.

Hello Jessie,

That another excellent question. As I understand it forgiveness must be asked for while still in our present mortal body.That asking must be coupled with belief that there is a God to ask, that he does forgive and he receives those he forgives.

Your other, your first point indeed, is a nice one. My understanding is that when God forgives it is as if that wrong thing had never been done. Not like the magistrate who says to the newly convicted,, "You have been found guilty and you have three previous convictions ...."

Hello Doc!

Hello everyone else as well.  Just stopped in to see if I had a message and I see I have several that needs to be answered.  However, I woke up late (imagine that!) and I'm due to an appt in a little bit so I have to get ready, I will, however address some issues I feel strongly about and look forward to further discussion!

Thanking you for your responses.

Xx Fristrated <3 doc,="" you="" must="" have="" "bonked"="" me="" on="" the="" head="" as="" i="" did="" fall="" fast="" asleep="" and="" 20="" hours="" later,="" i'm="" awake!="" yes!="" feels="" so="" good="" to="" finally="" "sleep="" like="" a="" baby".="" ttyl=""><3>

Hello Fristrated !!!

I was feeling really happy for you sleeping so well when your post script bushwhacked me into a gale of laughter. That is SO wonderful. HUGs are great, smiles are great but a good going laugh is curative. In cancer speak it is radical humour.

Fabulous dear frustrated, just fabulous. Doc!

Jesse ~

Also, momma nature is not one you can touch or see.  Mythical.  You may see the "rammifications" or MN, but who's to say it's MN or our savior! I choose the latter!  

haha! Doc, "fristrated" yes, I did typo on that one but it seemed fitting on how I was feeling.

I love the fact that you could laugh outright!  Your post did the same in return, thank you, I truly needed that!

and the "radical" comment, yet one more of your insightful,  humors!

Xx Frustrated

Nature  is  all around  to  be  touched  seen  and  ohh  the  perfume  of  say   a   rose!      Herbs   and   plants   that   spring  from  the  earth   provide   many    medicnes  that  are   used   even   today.       Rain   falls    to    quench    the   thirst    of    all     man   animals    plants    trees     thunder   can    be   heard    lightning    is    one    of     mamma     natures   most    fantistic    light    shows.            Mamma     nature      is     far       from        mythical       we     could     not      exist      on      this      earth     without      all     that     she     provides.

Jessie

Jessie ~

Wowzer, you definitely put thought and time into the post about Nature.  I do believe I read your response about Mother Nature incorrectly.  I apologize for that.  I do agree, we cannot live on this earth w/o all that she provides.

I hope to see your posts with us soon.  I do miss your point of view!

Thank you, frustrated 

As I understand it God is drawing all people to Himself. It's in the NT but I can't remember where. If I find it I'll let you know.

Dear Georgia,

I think you have chapter 12 of John's gospel in mind. When Christ sacrified himself on the Cross he drew all people to him. His Gospel of salvation is offered to everyone without reservation. That upsets some people as they think some people are too wicked to go to heaven. Could it be that people who think like that are sadly too wicked to go to heaven?

Thank you Georgia for raising that inclusive point. It is most apt for this forum. It (the people on this forum) delights my heart by being so open and kindly inclusive. There is so much here that rejoices my heart. Is being in deep, deep trouble good for the soul? It seems it must be so. The people on this forum must surely be a crosssection of society yet we do not behave as society does. Why the difference? Don't answer yet. I shall start a discussion on this interesting point.

xxxxx George