Bad Breath/reflux? pnd? infection? Something else?

When I was a teenager, my Dr prescribed me various antibiotics for years for my acne! I hated taking them because It didn't feel right, and they also only gve me limited help.  lymecycline for about 8 months. Doxycycline for a year or so. flucloxacillin too (only one that gave me some success until it suddenly stopped working).

Eventually I took accutane which was a God-send!

I do wonder if the antibiotics messed me up. (but then why were the Doctors so happy to prescribe me antibiotics for years and years??)

I took pro-biotics for a long time a year or so back to help combat my breath in the hope that it was maybe the antibiotics that had caused it and in an attempt to reverse the effects, but they didn't help me at all. No change.

If I go to my Dr and tell him I have bad breath and I want help, I know he'll just tell me to chew gum or something! They don't seem to think it's a real issue. Would I be better off telling him something else in the hope that he'll run tests? (like the breath test you mentioned)

YOu mentioned that ''here are 5 different families of antibiotics but NONE of them will deal with all the Bactria that are causing the problem'', so then how DO you deal with all of the bacteria causing the problem? 

If it sheds any light, I don't think that my diet plays much of a role. 

I used to experiment, and even if I live on water, fresh vegetables and fruit, my breath doesn't really change. 

I also still can't shake the idea that my tonsils are playing at least a part in my misery. It's difficult to be sure.

My tonsils are cryptic. Likely the result of being over-prescribed anti-biotics as mentioned before.

However, when I inspect them in the mirror with a light and dig around, I rarely see any tonsil stones. However, if I 'suck' on my tonsils (so that you make a noise like a pig) I often feel my breath is instantly worse. Could it be that they're hiding extremely deep and that they are my cause (or at least a part)?

Can the fact that the metronidazole 'cured' me temporarily prove or disprove the theory?

I asked my Dr if he would refer me to an ENT to have them removed, but he said that nobody would touch them, because they are small and are apparently doing a good job (as i've not had too many bad throats!) and so wouldn't consider my request.

Nobody seems to want to help me!

 

wat dose of metro did u take? 400mg? how many times per day? and for how long total?

How did u confirm that ur BB was "fresh"? did u ask a friend? Or did u just have a clean taste in ur mouth? The two are completely diff. I have clean taste in mouth but bad smell which I assume is SIBO or a digestion issue, most likely both. I take super high doses of probiotics (5 trillion per day) plus herbal antimicrobials (berberine and essential oils) which has no doubt made my bb smell way better, including that i wake up with fresh taste in mouth, however, the smell remains. so that means there is some infection going on, SIBO? I will have breath test done soon. I had stool analyses from genova and urine analyses, both indicating bacterial overgrowth. However, these tests do not indicate whether it is in the small bowel, just the colon.

Same for me, diet matters somewhat, but even if im doing elemental diet, protein shakes (vegan) and tons of water, my bb is better, but there remains a smell.

Also, do u get bb from nose? could u confirm it was gone during ur metro treatment?

How can u reorder metro? do u not need a prescription in UK? if not, i would do a lot to have u send me some, i can send u payment.

Hi. thanks for replying. Felt like I was talking to myself.

I took 250 mg of metro. Just 1 tablet per day, I can always smell my own breath, and I also realised there was no bad taste in my mouth, so I was confident my breath was nice.

But to be certain, I have avery young relative who lives with me who, like most kids, is brutally honest. He's told me my breath stinks lots of times, but when I was on the metro, I kept making a point of talking into his face close up, and he didn't say anything.

I didn't do the same test with my nose, but i'm still 99% sure that it was also odorless.

I'd read hundreds of threads about the drug before trying it.

It doesn't work at all for some people, and it temporarily cures some people.

That's why i'm sure that there's a clue there somewhere which is possibly being ignored by everyone?

When I took it the first time, I happened to find some in my drawer. Must have been prescribed for my brother for a gum infection and he never bothered to take it.

When I try it again, i'll either try to do an online consultation with a pharmacy to get a presription (would need to lie about my symptoms), or i'll be forced to pay way over the odds to an online pharmacy in another country (will obviously do my homework first to avoid getting scammed)

i am actually a physician scientist. My two cents on this issue is that the reason for relapse lies with the fact that the underlying issue is not being treated by antibiotics. So, metro is killing a lot of bad stuff, likely in ur small intestines (SIBO), probably in ur colon and perhaps somewhere else in your body (liver? sinuses?). Anyways, while on metro, the anaerobes are kept low, so you feel and smell better. However, the underlying issue is that, by this point, your immune system is weak (from chronic SIBO or infection) to the point where it cannot prevent this from reoccurring. Add to that the fact that you probably were eating a good amount of carbs while on metro, and werent taking probiotics, the result is that you were feeding those bad anaerobes, and not filling in the space they took up with good strains. So when u stop the metro, the bad anaerobes just repopulate the same spaces and boom, you smell again.

How to stop this? I think while on metro u must limit carbs and take probiotics (300billion+). And i dont mean taking primal defense or PB4 or watever crap they sell with less than 50billion CFU, cuz that stuff is worthless. your gut is populated with 100 trillion CFU minimum. do u really think 50 billion will make a difference... no not at all and clinical trials show that. Customprobiotics makes a cheap (cheapest probiotic out there PER CFU!) with 500 billion organisms per scoop, and will last 2-3 months if u use 1 scoop a day. it costs in the 170 range (US), but as i said, its the CHEAPEST on the market. u culd also do VSL#3, but thats pricey. I do both, i prefer custom and i can say that taking any high dose probiotic will benefit u, atleast give u a fresher taste in ur mouth (i have a fresh tasting mouth, but bad breath..., figure that out Dr. Katz, u crooked basterd).

I also think u shuld add in immune support, whether it be arabinogalactan (google) or astragalus, in addition to taking digestive enzymes AND betaine HCL AND 1 goldenseal capsule with EVERY meal. The point here is that many cases of SIBO are caused by poor digestion, pancreatic insufficiency and hypochloridia (low stomach acid). you need ur body to digest efficiently and quickly so the bad guys dont ferment it and proliferate.  Goldenseal just improves digestion bc its a tonic (google).

One last thing, i do think its important to stay on a natural antimicrobial (during?) atleast after or around the end of your antibiotics to kill off any remaining bad guys, or atleast to take for a longer period while u recover from antibiotics (metro still guys some good guys). Uva Ursi is a fantastic natural antimicrobial with activity against a wide range of bad guys. If u want u can also try taking floracol which is sacc. boulardii (friendly yeast) to guard against bad yeasts while ur small bowel is being cleaned up.

Id love to talk, this is the first forum ive ever posted on. Im in the process of getting metro for myself, im not sure if i shuld do 400mg 2x a day or 250 2x a day but im thinking 14-21 days. any suggestions?

Enough is enough, we all have great things to do in life, keep ur heads up. If nothing else, these experiences give us inner strength and an opportunity to discover resilience that we otherwise would never understand.

thanks MoneyGun. A fw more things to think about at least.

Yes, the metro was like a Godsend after a decade of false hope.

I always knew that it'd likely stop working when I stopped taking it, but I always had my fingers crossed that i'd be one of the lucky ones who it cures for good.

I still plan to take another course simply because I read of ONE case where the person was temporarily cured with it, then there bad breath came back after a few days of stopping, then they took another course and had nice breath permanently.

I have a new fear now of my system being resiliant to the metro, but I hope not.

I wonder about the possibilty of H pylori. I read the metro can be used on it's own to cure it, but i've also read that you need triple antibiotic to fight it.

I'm thinking of bying a home test kit for H pylori.

Does anyone know how accurate they are?

I don't really want to go straight to the Doctor as i'm sure he'd just fob me off as they always do. Blood tests etc cost them money, you see!

I've bought some expensive mouthwash to hopefull help in next week when i'm away on holiday with friends.

When I get back, I plan to either try to get some more metro and also follow your advice regarding carbs, probiotics etc to give it a better chance of working long term.

Or mayb testing for H pylor first, and then if positive, tell me Dr. that i'd tested positive on a home testing kit and I'd like him to confirm, and then go from there.

My main guesses as to what causes my bad breath are 'tonsil stones', 'acid reflux', 'Post nasal drip', 'infection like H pylor'.

It's SO difficult as they are all fairly 'linked'.

Regarding your question, When I took metro, I only took 1 250mg tab per day. I possibly took 2 tabs on my first day from memory. I took them for about 7 days.

Breath was baby fresh within a day or so. Stayed that way for about 4 days after, and then slowly came back.

I'd go with 2 x 250mg tabs If I was you.

Are you gonna see a Dr. to get a prescription?

im gonna ask a friend for a Rx.

So is ur problem strictly a mouth breath problem? like i said, i have fresh taste in mouth, but bad breath (digestive or SIBO). I'm Hpylori negative, and I suspect you will be too. I also suspect that u suffer from digestive issues. Are u constipated? How often do u do a bowel movement? per day/per week? are they smooth, solid pieces or small chunks? is there a smell?

strictly a mouth breath problem? I don't really know. I have a bad taste in my mouth. Coated tongue,too. I can smell my own mouth breath but not my own 'nasal breath'. However, I remember a long time ago, a friend told me he could smell a bad smell when I laughed out of my nose, so probably both.

I'm not particularly constipated. Usually 1 - 2 bowel movements a day. There is a smell (but then I think everyone's poop smells!)

Usually smooth and solid. Actually quite a healthy looking stool from what I gather.

My breath does change from day to day which is something that I really stuggle to work out!

Yesterday my breath was really bad all day.

Today, and at this moment in time (and I only have my own sense of smell to go by at the moment) it seems lots better.

My diet has been very similar both days! Confused about that

hormones (cortisol) play a huge role and fluctuate daily based on other factors like sleep, stress, outlook etc.

do u lick the bad of ur hand and smell it? i do that, not much smell. i too have nasal odor (cant smell it though).

im leaning more and more towards small gut dysbiosis rather than something in the colon. Heres one fun fact, I do enemas, ill do a regular saline enema (can buy at pharmacy) to flush out my colon, then ill reuse that same bottle, load it up with some antimicrobials like essential oils (thyme oil, oregano, etc - i buy pyloricin but theres many out there) ill put like 2 pyloricin, and 2-3 uva ursi caps in there, shoot up 8oz of it and go to bed and leave it in overnight. ill wake up the next morning feeling great. a clean level headed great feeling. cant describe it other than feeling very clean and good, kinda like u feel after a good workout, just good.

of note, it also improves my breath, even if it was terrible the day before. is this a treatment? its more of relief, but more interestingly, its a clue. i suspect this whole ordeal is due to gut dysbiosis (colon or small, maybe both) and our bodies are worn down and arent fighting them off properly.

gotta improve digestion, immune function and restore normal flora. that means enzymes, stress reduction, exercise, sleep, probiotics and yes, antimicrobials/antibiotics (metro?).

its all an equation, and we are solving for x. problem is, the other variables are so obvious that we dismiss them as "not important". lawlz.

''do u lick the back of ur hand and smell it?'' There doesn't appear to a smell. Even when I do it first thing in the morning when my breath is AWEFUL!

what does it smell like? I can tell u for certain, mine is improving and has improved tremendously, perhaps as much as 60-70%. the remaining 30% is still not great but its enough where I can talk to people somewhat. if ur interested ill tell u what ive done to improve it.

By *'it'* you mean my hand after licking it? It doesn't seem to have a smell. So despite having bad breath, either my saliva doesn't smell, or the lick test doesn't work on me for some reason, or something else.

Yes - tell me what you've done. I don't think it will help me, but it can't hurt.

Hello Moneygun and mike666,

im expericing exactly the same experiences after reading yours. Im looking to buy probiotics from customprobiotics but not sure exactly which one to try. VSL3 is my next option. You said you do both. Are they effective. any other suggestions or anything that helps. im desperate for a cure. thanks for listening. sad but willing to try. thanks

i am also having the same issues...can you help me how to improve my breath?thanks in advance.

Hey guys and gals!  Just found out that I must smell the back of BOTH hands, i.e., the licked one (after 5 seconds) AND the dry one.  Wow!  You'll noticed the difference THEN.  At first I thought that I had no morning breath.  WRONG!!!  After discovering the two handed trick I found out for sure that I most definitely have the "zacklies" (where your breath smells "zackly" like poop. [ref:  Robin Williams r.i.p.]

Mike

You mentioned a milder form of tonsil stones smell. I have had exactly the same and I found that this was coming from the very back of my tongue. Stick your tongue out as far as you can then use your finger to press the back of the tongue down and have a look at the very back. If there is thick coating then that is where the smell is coming from.

Mike, are you taking anything for acid reflux? I have LPR, the silent type and I get white in my tonsil area as well as throat clearing and sore throat. A scope showed inflamed oesophogus so I am taking a PPI to reduce acid. If yours is acid related, this may help. I also follow low fodmap (food intolerance) and low acid diet. I also gargle every night with baking powder to neutralise and clean the tonsils, this is helping the white at the back. I take a 10b probiotic, it seems to help digestion and hopefully bacteria overgrowth. Cut out carbs and sugar that feed bacteria, you may have to totally adjust your diet. Read up on SIBO diets and stick rigidly to it. It's hard but may work. Good luck x

Hi moneygun, 

Suffering the same symptoms and really appreciate some help and updates on ur case. 

what kind of medication have u followed?

Hi, if I may I would like to ask you about my own problem. I have confirmed GERD for at least 6 months and it has been treated with esomeprazole, sucralfate, and domperidone for 7 days (or 10 days, I actually forgot) and it's way better than before. Before I got these medications I was also prescribed lansoprazole and abbotic for 2 months without any improvement.

During this 6 months my breath smells significantly horrible (and it is HORRIBLE HORRIBLE, it annoys the whole car passengers when I'm in the car) with gradual worsening before that. I can't even remember the last time I feel confident about my breath. The first time I notice the extreme foul odor is sometime in 2014 and it got better with no medication although not 100%. It kept relapsing several times until persistently stayed from 6 months ago.

I google search, including in medical journals, that GERD causes bad breath from the belching and the reflux, but now that my gastric acid and reflux is quite controlled compared to several months ago, logically it should be better right? It's not. I am so desperate because I have an overseas conference starting next Monday and I have no idea how I could stop or even mask this bad breath since mints also don't help.

I have chronic post nasal drip despite being treated with antibiotics. My ENT doctor said the PND is because of chronic pharyngitis due to the GERD (she said it was LPR which means my esophagus and my pharynx, larynx, all are damaged due to the gastric acid and is all granulated. The granules produce mucus and that's why I have chronic PND). BUT, it's been 3 months since I got treated for the first time and no improvement.

I feel that I also have coated tongue.

I am truly desperate, please tell me what I should do, wether to see another doctor and ask for second, third, fourth opinion or to take probiotics or immune booster or anything, please, for my conference...

Btw I think I still feel bloated and I couldn't tell if my reflux starts again bcs I'm so used to it.

This is great information! I had a comprehensive stool test done, and I have e. coli and candida glabantra... So, I changed my diet to paleo, use only natural toothpaste, make my own mouthwash (clove, peppermint, baking soda, and water), use a tongue brush and scrapper, take oral probiotics and gum a probiotic gum, had my tonsils & uvala removed, take a high dose of vitamin C & D, add berbine & uva ursi to akaline water, vegatable juicing, weekly foot detoxes, digestive enzyme, and recently salagen (to help with dry mouth). No more antibiotics for me ever, because I think it's the root cause, along with doctors who don't inform patents that they will also need probiotics after antibiotic treatment. All the treatments I use now are all natural, non gmo, no soy, no dairy, no nut, no yeast, and free of perservatives.

There is a dentist who claims to cure bb, but he's really expensive ($10,000+). Dr. Miller, National Breath Center. They sent me his book for free and it has some great tips in there. 

All I can say is, people don't cover their face with their hands now when I talk, but mentally I'm damaged because of bad breath.   

Hi Moneygun,

It's admirable that you have become a physician scientist despite the hurdles of your condition. Good for you! I, myself, am a physician also so I personally know those hurdles too.

I'd like to discuss possible treatment options with you if you are interested, please let me know.

Hi mike any updates??

Hi moneygun. Please share what you did and has been helpful. I used to think I'm alone. I rarely see people with bad breadth. I feel so ashamed embarrassed and frustrated all the time. The stigma is depressing too. Dentists have confirmed I'm orally doing good. ENTs said I have PND and I underwent a painful procedure which disnt help. I've not tried any antibiotic before. I'm learning a lot here. Kindly share what you have done pls

Julian I tried what you said about cleaning the lingual tonsils (which i didn't even know we had) and OH MY GOSH. I think it has worked!! I read on another forum that you can use baby shampoo or baby wash to clean the lingual tonsils to help break up the "biofilm" and bacteria and thats what i did. This is my second day doing this and at the moment my BB is literally gone. I cant believe how simple the solution actually is. I also have been taking an allergy relief medicine to try to cut down my mucus production. and I have started taking my omeprazole again. I owe you my life Julian!!