Deciding to refuse cardiac catheterization.

Posted , 9 users are following.

After doing the best I can to ferret out the risks vs benefits of cardiac catheterization.  92% of my brain says, "No."  That niggling 8% is a real pain.

I am female.  I am over 60.  I have not had a myocardial infarction, (that they're telling me about anyway).  I have some stress wall hypertrophy, but that's pretty much it.  If I could get the physicians/cardiologists, to give me better evidence of need for such an invasive procedure, I might consider it...however...

I know me.  Just having the procedure would be psychologically, and, therefore, physically, ruinous.  I think I understand - but who can understand this really - that choosing not to have the catheterization, and whatever may happen as a result, means I might sign out quite unexpected.  But is this a better way to live?  I think so.

I have not felt "well" for at 7 years.  (I'll spare you the ailments).  However, I don't get colds, flu (no vaccinations)...I don't have hypertension.  I'm told I have angina, but I am convinced that the post-meal sensations I get are due to gastric/diaphragm...more on that order of things.  I don't have frank chest "pain."

I'm figuring that it will be a complete craps shoot to refuse the catheterization, but I am 100% certain, that there is a better chance of me surviving an invasive procedure if I don't die before I have it, then lending myself to what looks like a never-ending routine of invasive procedures.

What I'm currently hoping for, but have been unable to get, is a cardiologist who will agree to fully monitor me; one who truly understands the various medications available and who would find one that is best suited for this particular body, and who considers cardiac catheterization, et al, a last resort, rather than a first.  (Nice fantasy).

So far, I've had the general practitioner I see, attempt to scare the hell out of me without telling me on what evidence he was doing so.  (I would change to another GP if there was another one around).  That kind of tactic is not only useless, but demoralizing.  When it comes to "heart," demoralization can, without a doubt, lead to "heart trouble."

It's all a quandry.

3 likes, 46 replies

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  • Posted

    I was actually told that a powerfull MRI Scanner can checl for blockages, and I actually read online that a new study proved it to be more effective than CT scan. Maybe something to look into, but it needs to be a powerfull MRI scanner.
  • Posted

    Hi, I so know where youre coming from. I think sometimes orthodox practitioners feel it their duty to scare the pants from you instead of allowing you to make your own decisions and work with you. There is an old book written by Dr Dean Ormish called reversing heart disease. He was able to trial some patients supporting them with diet exercise and counselling (to release any stress) and some medication without any surgical intervention. This proved a very successful trial. My advice to you would be not to stress over your decision (which wouldnt be good for you) but to keep positive, deal with any past upsets (I find by realising that you always learn something from any bad experiences) and most of all be happy. You say you have pain after eating. See how and what you are eating. If you gulp your food or eat when stressed this could give you pain.

    For some people following the orthodox route is right but for the odd few that are worried about that route, we follow our instinct. I would like to stress, these are only my points of view, I am not advocating any particulsr route for you to follow. I wish you a long and happy life.

  • Posted

    Are you still uncathiterized?  I also have a negative reaction to the widely supported protocol of sending patients with positive stress tests or mild angina for heart cath angiograms.  I have never had high blood pressure, high cholesterol or diabetes.  I am 63, exercise regularly although not vigorously, swim a mile 3-4 times a week and walk 3 miles the other days.  Recently I started having a heavy feeling in my chest when swimming if I was very tierd, I push myself to exercise on evenings even if I slept only 5 hours the night before and worked all day teaching high-school because it makes me feel better than if I don't exercise.  I told my thyroid care doc this and decided to do a stress test. The stress echocardiogram revealed some compromise with rear left heart muscles ability to pump enough oxygen and I was sent to a cardiologist for further diagnosis, "you might have a blockage" I was told.  I researched all the tests, drugs, and my family history.  I  went to first cardiologist who looked at the video of my stressed heart from the test and said "It's not normal", he would do an angiogram, when I asked if it could be non invasive as in CT or MRI, he said no because I might need a stent in which case he would call in one of his colleagues to "do the plumbing".  I went to another cardiologist who also wants to do a heart cath angiogram after looking briefly at the stress test report and video.  When I asked this second cardiologist for a noninvasive angiogram I was told it would not show the blockages and that my insurance would probably not pay for it.   I am considering paying for it myself at this point.  It must cost less than the invasive procedure.  Interestingly one doc told me I could keep up my exercises and the other said I should not exert myself.  I found that I can get a coronary artery calcium score test on my own, without a docs order and pay for by myself, at a local hospital which is not much, but will give me knowledge about the extent of identifiable plaque in my arteries.  That's my next step.

    What I want is this:  Proper meds that can keep my heart healthier, I will take them, I have read that low levels of statins are good to keep attacks away.  I do have a grandmother who died at 84 of congestive heart failure and an 88 year old aunt with a  likewise compromised heart.

    What I do not want: invasive tests that may lead to a "never-ending routine of invasive procedures".

    Is it true that stents will not prevent a heart attack?  I thought that they held back plaques that then would heal over and be less likely to send chunks of crud drifting into arterys to cause heart attacks?

     

    • Posted

      Ultimately, shortly after I wrote the post, the doctors decided I should not even have an angiogram.  (This was a 3-day change of opinon).  Their decision, and it's in writing, was due to my "having a lot of questions."

      You are 100% more active than I am, and I have been feeling worse.  Ironically, I was searching the internet for a discussion that would help me decide whether having an echocardiogram, (which would be read by my adversarial cardiologists), would at least give me more information; how much, if any, change since last year.  The first result was my post.

      I have every possible risk factor with the exception of diabetes, and a AAA family history of early deaths.  Still, the fear of putting myself in the hands of a bad technician, or the risk of the procedure itself, has not abated.  I only take a 1/2 dosage of a beta blocker, and regular strength aspirin, for medications.  I have refused statins.

      You have a high level of activity.  Getting yet seems reasonable.  Plenty of people "may" have blockages.  It's two months since you wrote; have you had anything done, or are you still researching?  I don't quite understand being told that your heart wasn't pumping enough "oxygen."

    • Posted

      I was wondering where you went and what happened with you?  You inspired me to continue my search for the noninvasive test!  

      I got a CT Calcium scan on my own and had a "0" score which I reported to my cardiologist who said that he had told me "it didn't show blockages", I would still need a cath.  

      After much research I was able to find a cardiologist who routinely uses noninvasive CAT scans to follow-up on inconclusive stress/stressecho tests.  The scan showed that I do not have any coronary artery disease, so a heart catheterization was not needed.  I spent 3 months worrying and exagerating every little twinge into a possible life-ending event.  I do not know why this noninvasive procedure is not used more?  It is less expensive and involves less radioactivity than the cath.  My insurance was wiling to pay for it as well.  

      During the time I was researching and waiting I heard several stories from people who benefited from the heart cath as they needed stents to open blockages.  They had symptoms/conditions that I do not have, extreme fatigue and bad diets being the common ones. The experience I had of living with a fear that my heart would suddenly cause my death or that I would slowly die made me realize how horrible it can be and what a position the cardiologists are in helping people survive.  A great deal of compassion and patience is needed.  In a way it is good that the "cath labs" have evolved as they have perfected the process, there must be few complications - and now there is the radial approach which has fewer complications as well.  My original doc does not do radial caths.  I still feel that if there is a noninvasive procedure that can show the same thing, it is the way to go.  You should get a CT calcium test and then a CAT scan if you are worried even though the docs now say you don't need an angiogram.  The doc showed me the images of my heart and explained how they showed no blockages, it was amazing!

      In the months before the CAT I daily took 81mg aspirin and 100mg Co Enzyme Q-10, nonperscription drugs that I read might be beneficial.

    • Posted

      Here I am.  Feeling quite poorly of late.  Next to no energy.  Chest pressure that is continuous, but this may be due to other factors.  I appreciate that the CT  tests don't worry you, but they worry me.  (But great news from your doctor). I don't want CT scans unless there is no alternative.  From what I have read, I'm not so sure that the CT scan replaces the angiogram.  However, with women, it seems that microvascular problems are often an issue that angiograms do not reveal - at least that is what I have read so far.

      I have a call in to schedule an echocardiogram, but I will not have it done locally, nor will I have it read by the cardiologist I have seen.  The problem with any of this is that I cannot tolerate more stressors.  I'm sick of any physician using scare tactics for any reason whatsoever.  And, sure enough, if they look hard enough, they'll find something.  On the other hand, my quality of life is decreasing.  I'll keep after getting what I need in the way I need to receive it.  Otherwise, I don't want the hell the practitioners can put you through, whether it's heart, or breast, or what have you.  I couldn't take it. 

      So.  Regarding the radial angiogram.  I have a sense that women may be better off with the femoral approach.  Just a hunch.  Or, maybe it is that after 40 years, I can still feel pain where I had a saline drip in the vein in my hand, post-partum.  I can't quite bring myself to buy the Q-10, but my sense of that is that it is worth taking.  So is having some fun.

      I am very glad that you are having better health.

    • Posted

      There is a now a way to see microvascular disease with the angiogram but it is available only in a few hospitals.  An antagonist that will cause spasms in those smalller vessels is used and they can be seen on the xrays.

      I had constant chest pressure with the stress of not knowing if I had something seriously wrong or not. After the CCAT and seeing the images with the cardiologist and knowing I had no blockages it went completey away!  The reason I took the ubiquinol was because I read it was perscribed in Germany and Japan for congestive heart failure and that it could help the veins heal fom the nicks and scrapes that might happen during the heart cath I was worried I might have to undergo.  Also, a famous east/west medical doctor who has congestive heart disease in his family said he takes it along with a low dose aspirin, a minimal amount of a statin and Omega 3 to protect his heart.

    • Posted

      See the work of Dr. Rite Redberg:

      Diagnosing Cardiovascular Disease in Women: The Role of ... www.medscape.org/viewarticle/733869 2010 - Rita F. Redberg, MD; Leslee J. Shaw, PhD; Timothy Bateman, MD .... While women also get obstructive disease, microvascular disease may ...

       

    • Posted

      Please look up the work of Rita F. Redberg, MD on diagnosing womens heart disease.

       

    • Posted

      Well, it's been 9 months since the last post.  Now, I've become uncertain about having a straight echocardiogram, although one is scheduled for this week.  I am all the more sure that the stress from whatever I am told - and I am sure there will be evidence of worsening of condition - along with whatever options I may be presented with, will increase my level of tension to the extent that is extremely unhealthy.  Yet, I think an echocardiogram should be a reasonable step.  If I had a good relationship with a physician involved in any of it, maybe I'd feel more comfortable with it all.  Or, if there were better local resources - which there are not.  Most options are completely geared toward males, and that hasn't changed in the past 9 months, you know?  Whatever I would be told about cardiac/vascular condition - not worse would be the only information I could handle.  Anything more -- no.  "But"

  • Posted

    I am writing this to detail my experiance I am a 75 year old Female.  I  had a back surgery and one week later had a heart attack.   At the hospital I was asked if I wished to have the catheterization.  I just wanted for the pain to stop but stated thaI wanted to die. I did not die, the fact is only 23 % of white females will die with the first heart  attack. The other 75% will have massive heart muscle damage that will keep them from a normal life with many trips to the hospital and eventualy death due to heart failure. Todays medical technology cannot repair the dead muscle in the heart so one must do everthing possible to prevent its damage. That is catheterization it is  life saver. To refuse it is not logical. 

    CGB  USA North Carolina

     

    • Posted

      Except that for women, it is often the smaller vessels that are not carrying good flow, and the catheterization doesn't examine them.  It is wonderful that all worked well for you and that you seem to be doing ok.
  • Posted

    She has passed away 3 months to the day of the attack.
    • Posted

      I am so sorry to read this. The last three months cannot have been an easy time for you or her. I hope you were able to have the conversations you needed to in that time.
    • Posted

      You are ultimately responseable for your own life understand the results of your decesion. Your family is but a bystander.

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