Need help please :(

Dizzy ??  I would think caffeine would make any anxiety worse.

Trying to understand ... you've taperted one week 45 mg / 30 mg - was that alternative days or what?

Then the 2 nd week 45mg one day and 30 mg for 2 days (did you do this for a week)?

So last Sunday youu went back to 45 mg - is that right.

I think as you've gone back to 45 mg pretty quickly reinstatement will be ok ... so annoying that doctors do not know how to advise tapering this drug ... that's why myself and others like Evergreen are still here trying to help folk as there seems very little advise for the sufferers.

If you feel quite well in yourself I would just try and rest up, puut on some movies to distract yourself/meditate in other words, try and ride out the symptoms, if it gets too much and you need company and there isn;t anyone around, take yourself to your nearest doctors or hospital, don't worry yourself to the point of distressing youurself more.

Whatever happens, remember this is temporary, and it will get better, I've had my moments too, the discontinuation can be frightening, call a friend, member of the family.  Do you live alone?  

 

'Trying to understand ... you've taperted one week 45 mg / 30 mg - was that alternative days or what?

Then the 2 nd week 45mg one day and 30 mg for 2 days (did you do this for a week)?

So last Sunday youu went back to 45 mg - is that right.'

Yes, that's it. Actually I have been on 45 again since Saturday, symptoms got rough on Sunday so I abandoned the taper, and went to 45 rather than 30.

This is really freaky for me because while it's not as horrifying as the benzo hell I went through, it's been frightening and distressing to discover I am hopelessly stuck on another frigging drug that does me no good and was prescribed in utter ignorance. I just hoped I couldn't get that unlucky, twice. But I did

I stayed with family last night, and I'm back with my wife tonight. I try to keep out of her way when things are bad, as she is just so drained by the whole thing.

My private shrink is a good guy and importantly he doesn't feel the need to cover up for mistakes made by the NHS, which is what plagued me all last year. He says that in 15 years of work he's never had a patient have such bad discontinuation syndrome...but crucially he isn't blaming under lying anxiety, he is certain that it is withdrawal. I'm confident he would co operate with a slow taper.

When I was going through benzo WD I lived in daily terror. This isn't like that, but I am scared by these waves...I certainly wouldn't be able to work and I was building myself up to going back. I will only get one shot at that, so I must be ready.

I can't spend a year tapering Mirt if I'm unable to work during that time.

I'm reassured you think I can reinstate fully at this point. I had to abandon a couple of meetings I'd set up with work people this week, blaming a heavy cold. But if I'm not able to go for coffee with them next week, it will look very suspicious. They know about the benzo disaster and are actually Extremely sympathetic. But they don't know i was trapped by this other drug.

I'm going to stay on the 3mg Valium forever, basically. That WD was just too much. Can't go back there.

I just desperately want to be back where I was before I started tapering the Mirt. I was completely fine. No symptoms at all. I just had no idea it could possibly be this hard. It's been very demoralising.

Thank you very very much for your advice and support. It has helped me enormously in the last couple of days. You've really made the difference between me being just very anxious, and totally demented with worry...if I can just get back to where I was, I know now if I do taper it must be so, so slowly...

How are you today Chris?  

It sounds like you have a good relationship with your p.doc, thats good.  Hopefully later on you might be able to persuade him to write you up for liquid Mirt, when tapering goes lower.  

Don't beat yourself up, youu may have become a victim of the chemicals and bad tapering, but within time, when you feel stable, stick with the plan and you will be OK.  Alternative days tapering used to be the only advice out there, maybe later you can let your p.doc have a copy of what works for you, so he can pass on the good !  I gave my doctor a copy and she photocopied it, I mean how are they to know unless we pass on what works for us.

Hope you're feeling slightly better ?

Hi Calmer.

I think I feel a bit better! I'm still not back where I was but it feels a little easier, I had a huge big sleep which was good - such vivid dreams tho! :-0

As long as you're confident I will level out and be stable again, that's good enough for me.

I just read a line somewhere on your page of links that said 'once you go off the drugs, all bets are off' re reinstating successfully, but I guess / hope that that refers to people who have gone off them altogether or who haven't reinstated as soon as I did.

I just want to be back where I was. I was completely able to function. I think this has knocked my confidence badly, really.

Yes my doc is a good guy and he would certainly study that taper plan, and he himself had told me liquid mirt was available if needed.

There's something so scary about being in two chemical prisons - benzos and mirt. But I'm rock solid on a very small benzo dose, doc happy for me to just leave it.

Please God just let me get back to where I was so I can take a deep breath and think about what I do next...

Thank you again!

Good good, sounds very promising for you, if you're improving now I think you are going to be fine.  Yes it does knock your confidence, folk get very shakey about trying to taper again, but once you're stabilised you will come to a time when you're ready to try again, baby steps ...

I'm not sure that the article you speak of means 'whilst tapering', although I have to say people who go up & down, up and down the doses of Mirt' can end up stuck in a muddle with the symptoms, and it seems very tough on them, so I would always say not to do that.  By that I mean people who for a week drop down 50% then up 50%, then down 25% and back up - even worse some people get safely down to say 22.5 mg and get a few problems and decide to go back up to the full 45 mg, our CNS just can't cope with it.   I think it may mean for folk who go cold turkey, but I've read of many of those who do stabilise, so maybe a pinch of salt needed there.  If it was the S.A. site it is American so maybe they're more generous with their betting hey !!

Hope you keep improving, let us know.    

 

Thanks!

Did you remain functional through your very slow taper?

I really do need to return to work, and I couldn't do that if I had marked WD symptoms...I have no problem going really slowly, as long as I can go about my day.

But id be very nervous about going back to work still on the full dose, in case it 'pooped out' (tho my doc doesn't think that is a major risk, tho of course he also assumed his taper plan was slow!)

I know not everyone is the same, of course.

I'm avoiding the caffeine today anyway. I just had a big window yesterday and thought oh great, I'm fine now...three enormous cups of tea later and...WHOOSH.

When I was steady on 45, caffeine didn't give me any issues.

Yes I remained functional Chris, my main symptom was fatigue, but then again I always was even at my full dose, which was 15 mg.  At 15 mg I was sedated 24/7, when tapering it got better slowly.    Although you may find the lower doses more sedating, this med is back to front in that regard.  

I actually did 5% drops every 2 weeks rather than 10% every 4 weeks, a little kinder to the system, and then you have the choice to hold for longer if any wobbles, I didn't really have any wobbles.  You need to make a liquid for 5% drops, so it might be best to use the Mirt Sol Tabs for this (following those instructions previously).  Although the liquid is very simple to use, to use it from 45 mg to zero is very expensive so its likely your doc may not prescribe for a year if of course they're on top of their game and realise its a year or more) (mine didn't realise).

Another point needing a mention ... here she goes again he says, don't worry ...  some people have a problem switching over from one manufacturer of Mirt to another, so it may be better to try and speak to your pharmacist about this.  Also, if you are swapping types of med, i.e. tablet to Sol Tabs or even liquid, "stay at the same dose" for approx 10 days before any taper to enable your system to get used to the new type - again some folk have had problems with it.

Caffeine ... maybe neither you nor I with sensitivity should be drinking it anyway, I only have one but I wonder if I should even be doing that, then its decaff tea, or Rosehip tea suits me.

Over a year! :-/

Do you know people who have managed to get from 45 to zero and functioned?

Is it like benzos where the closer you get to zero, the smaller the cuts have to be?

Also, like benzos, is the worst / 'acute' bit the period immediately after you stop taking it completely?

Just an update: this has definitely been the easiest day since stopping my taper...the 'head pressure' and head rushes and crazy vertigo hasn't happened at all today...in fact the only real symptom today has been a relatively slight but still uncomfortable underlying anxiety, right in the pit of my stomach. But The lack of serious physical symptoms definitely keeps the earlier anxiety / panic down.

So I've been moving in the right general direction since reinstating, and fingers crossed it seems I really am stabilising, back to where I was.

Thanks for all the help, I'll keep checking in and if you don't mind I'll be picking your brains ahead of any new taper plan!

Anytime Chris, great news, so please for you

I might have been a little optimistic saying 45 mg to zero in a year, yes.  Lets not rule out the fact that a minority can get away with a faster taper, there have been a few on this forum in the time i've been here, 'apparently'.  

Should have mentioned, Rosemont made the 15 mg Mirtazapine pills I took, and also the liquid, I was OK switching straight over also from one to the other whilst doing a drop in dose, I didn't hear of the advice to stay on the same dose until later.

Yes the cuts get smaller because you work out a 10% or 5 % cut of the last dose each time.  It seems endless but I'm here to tell you that the slow taper is doable, keep pushing through ~ that's my motto.

No not for me ~ the final "jump off" at the end (0.01 mg for me) was not the worst ... only in my imagination, and lets face it, in life the anticipation is always worse than the real thing, no ??

 

Here's another scary question: if the Mirt 'poops out', do you go into hard withdrawal?

I ask this because i have to go back to work in the next few months to save my career, it's really that serious...so if a taper, even a very slow taper didn't work for me, my only other option would just be to resign myself to taking this stuff.

I don't feel like it affects me one way or the other, tho the effects of dropping 33% of my dose would suggest that it absolutely does in terms of my brain's chemistry, I'm just not aware of it...

Basically, I might just have to stay on it. There must be people who just do that, right?

When you say 'keep pushing through', do you mean push through withdrawal symptoms? That was what my doc initially said to me re my abandoned taper, but when I told him how bad they were he changed his mind...in my experience with benzos, pushing through just led to a whole world of pain, tho admittedly I was never stable on it until I stopped, and going far too fast...

Hi Chris

I think 'poop out' puts you into involuntary wd, it seems to happen after a lengthy time on Mirt' from what I've read, it is unusual really.  People think its their old symptoms returning sometimes.  Remember the postings here are all from people struggling in one way or another, so thats an unknown percentage, but likely to be less than those who are not and are not posting.  I can't say I particularly suffered apart from weight gain, fatigue, and having to go at snail pace to come off.  Suppose that is quite a lot really for some, I'm just grateful to be OK after the initial onset of troubles back in 2015.

When I say 'keep pushing through', I'm thinking of the fatigue, malaise and lethargy (for some) that comes when tapering (not me, just fatigue).  So its mind over matter almost, I am not meaning any anxiety, intrusive thoughts, IBS etc.  

Quite often after doing a 5% or 10% drop, some folk get the same symptoms on the same day after doing so.  So say you took 5% less on a Sunday for instance, by Friday you might feel fatigued, agitated, restless, sleep slightly less (nothing major with a small drop) ... its best to keep a journal so you know when these arise for YOU (we're all different), it might last a day, 2 days ... for some it might happen on day 10, for some nothing is felt at all.  

Hope this helps Chris.

Thanks Calmer, yes it does...I think I will probably just keep taking. It's not ideal but I can't go back to work on an unsteady base, and I really must go back this year if I'm ever to...tapering is just unpredictable, no matter how slow it is.

I hate taking anything, but I'm stuck with it.

I've read about people taking it for many years, and having no complaints. I am terribly sensitive to any fluctuations in my meds. I fear I will have to learn to live with them. They only cause me issues when I mess with the dose. At least I got the Diaz down to very little.

I can't surrender any more of my life to this, I've lost over a year already. My mirt taper was part of getting me back to work, I wanted it done with. I just couldn't believe id be so unlucky as to have severe WD from two different drugs. So I went with the proposed schedule. It was ok for the first week, then BAM.

If was horribly like Diaz WD, tho not as bad...however who knows how bad it would have got had I not hit the brakes?

I'm still mulling this over but I can't see myself being able to have the confidence to taper and work. I will be going back freelance, after losing my staff job to Diaz WD, so I won't have any scope for not being totally at my game. And that seems unlikely if I'm tapering.

At least I have a shrink who listens and ultimately will do what I feel is right for me. Hopefully!

No rush, you can decide any time, some people stay on meds all their lives. Yes you are right there ~ confidence is the key, andbibdo think there is a right time for everyone. Have you tried CBT with a professional? Maybe your pdic does it?

Hope your meeting goes well for you this week, keep smiling, you can do it. Best wishes.

Re CBT I'm actually seeing a therapist as well, the psych is strictly for the drugs I'm on. The NHS, after getting me hooked, were going to just yank me off them all.

My diazepam WD was so severe that if they'd done that, I don't think I'd have made it this far.

I just feel very flat and down today, I think it's delayed reaction to experiencing horrible WD again. I'd say I'm 85% back to where I was before that taper. I just need to regain my confidence and get some momentum back in my life next week, before I started the Mirt taper I was on a real roll...thanks again Calmer